Dressage judging advice

dressager

dressager

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I have been asked to judge at a local unaffiliated dressage this Sunday and this will be my first (they must have been desperate is all I can say!) Its for a prelim and a novice, I've heard there's a real mixture of competitors/horses.

Any tips? Someone told me to comment before giving the mark, is this how others do it?

I think it will be a real challenge to judge at this level and knowing what to give priority, as I'm sure many of the horses will not be exactly working according to the scales of training, plus I'm imagining the odd kid/pony combo on lead rein!
 
Try to keep your comments positive and avoid negatives, and ask your scribe to keep you straight on this - it's really easy to say that a movement is bad rather than that it could be improved!:D Say something really encouraging at the bottom too :)

Know your tests backwards (dressage diagrams from judge's perspective are really useful and worth the money to download) because you can be sure people will forget/not learn them, and you need to be on the ball with the car horn.

After a few horses have gone you'll get a feel for the overall standard - unless you have a good idea of the horses and riders beforehand, this can be tricky at this sort of level, and it is easy to either underscore or overscore the first few, so bear that in mind to avoid being totally inconsistent and ending up with some people on 10s and some on 2s :o

Don't let anyone distract you! I have been very rude to people who've wandered up to the window for a chat mid-test :rolleyes:

Have fun, enjoy!:D
 
Make sure you know each movement in the correct order.
Make Positive comments and mark what you see.
Watch the movement then comment and finally mark.
The collectives are a reflection of the marks given, so if you are giving say, 6 average for paces then the collective will be 6 etc
 
Try to mark the competitors equally, it's so easy to mark the cute ponies higher because of their cuteness!!
Also if in the novice there is a medium trot maybe wait until both have been done so you can see how well try did (judge I wrote for did this last week)
Good luck judging!!
 
Have a quick chat with your scribe before you start, just running through how you'll be giving the marks and comments, what to do if they miss a mark or get confused (sorry, people, it happens even to the best ;)) and ask if they have any questions. Make sure you have the right number of tests, your pen works etc. I know, very obvious, but these things happen! I also like the scribes to have a chance to ask questions, as often people are doing the job to get more insight into the process.

I do agree with being positive but tests are supposed to be learning experiences. Absolutely, try to couch your comments in a constructive way ("trot will improve with more impulsion" etc) but sometimes you have to say "behind the vertical" or "too fast" or similar so don't tie yourself in knots trying to avoid negatives. And yes, in the general comments, try to say nice things but also remember some people may be using this as their primary educational source so if you think they're doing something that's really going to be a problem, say it.

Some of the Prelim tests have an annoying number of movements grouped together. Wait until the end of the movement - things can change in the last component!

Re marks, the reality is unaff marks often ARE more generous, in part because judges start out benevolent and than can end up in trouble if they get a few good combinations! But try to be honest. The same horses are going to end up in the same places. Resist the cute vote! Everyone is there to be judged equally and I assume if someone enters then they want to be judged accurately. It can be really hard if you have someone show up on an obviously "down graded" horse but you'd be surprised how many times a competitor who doesn't necessarily look the part does a damn good job.

If the show is small and informal, I tell the organisers I'm happy to answer questions or clarify test sheets for competitors after the class. Most people don't take advantage but I've had some really useful chats over the years. Plus, it helps demystify things a bit for less experienced competitors, particularly if they don't have the best day.

Don't drink too much coffee unless you're sure you're going to get a break soon! ;)

It's good fun. You'll soon settle in to the job. :)
 
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ive found that its best to comment on the movement, then give the mark. one youve given the mark the scribe knows to move on to the next movement. if theres no comment you just give the mark and the scribe will move straight on. as someone said try and be encouraging, but dont be too generous. i know someone that did her first test and was thrilled with 58% because the judge was a bd judge marking to bd standards. there was everything from 54% to 68% but the competitors knew the marking was true. this was a bd venue though with a regular onsite judge.
 
Its its good then its has to be an 8

7 = Could be better
6 = Should be better
5 = Must be better

The test marks may not go higher than 7 but if you saw good paces but mistakes then you can give an 8 or higher in the collectives.

Collectives should be higher than test.

Paces = What God gave it
Impulsion = Body
Sumbission = Mind
Rider = Postive or Negative influence

Remeber that even a 7 has lost 30% of the marks and a 10 is not perfect but excellent.

Comments should relate to the scales.

At Prelim you are really looking for Rhythm, suppleness and contact.

If you mark down once - say a 5 or 4 - for one movement that was a one off then dont automatically give 5 or 4 in the collectives as this would be double jeapordy.

Only mark what you can see. Think of the cause instead of listing all the symptoms. This should give you your collectives.

And remember, you will only make one friend...and thats only if it is a qualifying score!

Enjoy!!
 
B-B said:
Its its good then its has to be an 8

7 = Could be better
6 = Should be better
5 = Must be better

The test marks may not go higher than 7 but if you saw good paces but mistakes then you can give an 8 or higher in the collectives.

Collectives should be higher than test.

Paces = What God gave it
Impulsion = Body
Sumbission = Mind
Rider = Postive or Negative influence

Remeber that even a 7 has lost 30% of the marks and a 10 is not perfect but excellent.

Comments should relate to the scales.

At Prelim you are really looking for Rhythm, suppleness and contact.

If you mark down once - say a 5 or 4 - for one movement that was a one off then dont automatically give 5 or 4 in the collectives as this would be double jeapordy.

Only mark what you can see. Think of the cause instead of listing all the symptoms. This should give you your collectives.

And remember, you will only make one friend...and thats only if it is a qualifying score!

Enjoy!!
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Sorry but I have to disagree on the collectives, they should mirror, not be higher than the movement scores, so if you have scores of say four 6's and maybe six 7's with a couple of 5's, the collectives would be a mixture of 6 and 7, you cannot give 8s.

Technically 7 = Fairly Good 6 = satisfactory and 5 is sufficient which sounds much more positive but probably means the same thing :)

At prelim I am not too worried if the horse is not in an outline (other than behind the bit - that is a no no) as long as it is going forward properly and in a good rythm, so, if a horse is in the correct outline but is not going forward, I would mark that horse lower than one who is slightly nose poking but IS going forward in a good rythmn. I also look at the individual horse and weigh up whether he/she is going as well as his/her conformation allows, that way a little hairy moving to the best of their ability in a good rythmn will gain a higher mark than a warmblood with huge paces but is, for instance, hollowing or coming behind the bit.

In my comments, I point out how the marks could be higher and try my best to be positive - sometimes this is an impossible task. I always end with a 'Well ridden, well done or a fair attempt'
 
I agree with Amaranta. Colelctives should mirror the test scores.
The other day a notorious black stallion received '9' for paces despite the judge giving '7' for extended walk, trot and canter. That is just not OK. The collectives do not belong to some impressionistic, 'ooh I quite like this horse' space. They provide an important opportunity for reflecting upon principles of training that perhaps weren't addressed sufficiently in the test itself.

I would say be 'constructive' rather than be 'positive'. You are there in an evaluative capacity, not just to slap backs. And remember, the rules say that the nose should be slightly in front of the vertical and on the vertical in collected exercises. if it comes behind the vertical, subtract two marks per movement.

And enjoy yourself! :-)
 
If the horse has 8 or 9 paces then award the paces.

An athletic talented horse may be on an 8 or 9 but then blow the movement and receive a lower score.

That is how you mirror a test.

I listed the 7, 6, 5 to help explain what fairly good etc look like.

Judge training advises against saying well done, etc as it is can be deemed condescending by the rider and better to keep comments relative to the scales with a what went wrong, what could be better and something to aspire to.
 
B-B said:
If the horse has 8 or 9 paces then award the paces.

An athletic talented horse may be on an 8 or 9 but then blow the movement and receive a lower score.

That is how you mirror a test.

I listed the 7, 6, 5 to help explain what fairly good etc look like.

Judge training advises against saying well done, etc as it is can be deemed condescending by the rider and better to keep comments relative to the scales with a what went wrong, what could be better and something to aspire to.
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If a horse has 8 or 9 paces, he will have received that score within the movement scores at least once, unless he blows every movement, in which case you would not be able to give an 8 or 9, this is how I understood it at the last judge training I attended where that very question came up :confused:

I don't see how a 'well ridden' or a 'well done' can be construed as condescending and have not been advised otherwise either. I suppose it depends on who is taking the training. I suppose it also depends on the level of the test too, at the lower levels we should encourage people, yes personally I point out what needs to be improved but I also like to end on a good note.
 
Amaranta said:
If a horse has 8 or 9 paces, he will have received that score within the movement scores at least once, unless he blows every movement, in which case you would not be able to give an 8 or 9, this is how I understood it at the last judge training I attended where that very question came up :confused:

I don't see how a 'well ridden' or a 'well done' can be construed as condescending and have not been advised otherwise either. I suppose it depends on who is taking the training. I suppose it also depends on the level of the test too, at the lower levels we should encourage people, yes personally I point out what needs to be improved but I also like to end on a good note.
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If he has the paces, then give the mark. If you deduct the movement, the paces and the submission for a horse blowing up, then is that fair?

It was made very clear by she who marks the judges practice sheets for upgrade not to say 'Attractive' or 'Well Done'.

I go the training and the seminars and have done through the levels and so far the message above hasnt changed.

Yes, it can be confusing and yes we do need to encourage. But, comments need to relate to the scales.
 
Have to agree with B-B re collectives.

I have always been told in training that the paces mark is the one that can be somewhat independant of the test marks. I think this is even more so in some of the newer tests where there are separate marks for the Walk, Trot and Canter.

You could have a horse with the most amazing trot who for the reasons B-B outlined has not scored higher than a 7 in the test (it could even be because the rider has ridden really badly shaped/sized circles, not prepared transitions, missed markers etc).

You will already have penalised this in the movements and in the relevant collectives whether that be the submission, impulsion or the rider mark. Are you going to only give a 7 for the trot mark even though it would clearly warrant an 8 or even a 9?

I've also been told that as a 'general' guide the percentage of the collectives should be roughly equal to or slightly higher than the overall test percentage....now higher does not mean giving collectives of 8 7 7 8 (75%) for a 67% test but collectives of 8 6 6 7 would theoretically be possible and correct for such a test (that may only have consisted of 6s and 7s for the movements). Obviously if it was the case of the bad riding causing the losses of marks than the rider mark would not be a 7!!
 
Thanks everyone :)

I had great fun and my prelim winner was on 71% and the novice winner on 73%. Thankfully I found out both combinations do tend to do very well. I have to say I even gave the novice winner a couple of 9s as really there was little she could have done better in those movements. She must have felt the same as she patted the horse after a perfect canter-trot-canter transition which was nice to see. There was still the odd 6 mind for falling in on a 15m circle etc. I did feel I used a wide range of marks. The toughest part was when the same combination was in the second class and I couldn't quite remember exactly what collectives I gave for the first class, but I guess that kind of consistency comes with practice.

It was really tough in the novice as the pony that came second was very accurate and consistent but it really had no medium trot or canter. The winner had a bigger range of scores but I guess the really good bits helped it pull through.

They asked me back at least so that was nice :)
 
Well done!

Dont forget there is always a 10 Excellent - not perfect.

Also dont ever try to remember scores.. judge each test on its own merits. judge what you see not what you know it can or cannot do.

The winner is the highest score on the day, not always the best horse - as in having the mediums. If the best horse makes mistakes then it may not even be in the ribbons.

Its not for the judge to decide the running order. You will run into difficulty if you try to do that.
 
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