dressage judging

L

lorenababbit

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 November 2005
Messages
1,357
Visit site
Now i am a judge so feel entitled to this rant. having not done an affiliated for some time i was persuaded to ride a friends horse today. no hardship it is very well behaved and usually does well. Sadly when i got to the centre i discovered one of the judges i call the 'blue rinse brigade' was judging both (a Nov and an Elem). This particular judge has never judged me before though she knows me quite well but is well known for being biased and unfair as well as clueless. However she is on List 2 or 3 and therefore can do no wrong according to BD.
Now usually when there is one of these posts i am on the side of judging and keeping the peace but i was FURIOUS today. The old bag particularly asked the organisers which time i was but it wasnt too hard to work out and gave me a harsh mark and several very odd comments like stiff in the body and for the free walk ' stetching and seeking rein but not over the back' . Huh?
afterwards i had a civilised discussion with her for enlightenment because though the Elem was rubbish ( i messed up) the Nov was pukka even if i say so myself. i do ride round as if i was judging myself and there just wasnt an error and most of the movements were at least fairly good (7) and i thought i deserved an eight or two. As i was last to go and had arrived early i did see several tests so had an idea of the standard inc the eventual winner.
Appaerntly though i had the horse Soft thru his neck and correctly bent, his body was stiff. How does that work? Was it the rythmn? No that was fine. Was it the balance? Not that either. Was the test accurate? Markedly so. Was it forward? Yes.
Anyone who can enlighten me list 4 & former Adv rider, trained in Germany, please do because i if i had had this test videod BD would be recieving rude letter and if any competitors ever hear me defending rubbish judges and judging send a man round to beat me to my senses! Thats it!!
 
... and breathe !!! I must admit I did one test this summer when I was too furious with the judging I got (despite actually winning the class), I am the sort of person who is a bit of a perfectionist and normally come away thinking the judges have been generous!
Anyway, rant away, you'll feel better for it !!! I know judging is a thankless task but I do believe you that there is the odd rogue out there, I wrote for one who was on a truely different planet once!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Is nice to hear a judge having a good rant!

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me tell you, you had to be there! And i am so angry (more for the horse as we are trying to find nice home for the beastie) I am now going to the pub to drown my sorrows!
 
I've had this a few times Dolores. It's amazing how my last day out I scored 69% in the prelim with one judge, performed a "pukka" (yr words) novice (best I've done) only to score a 59%!!! OH was gutted and so was I. There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in judging in recent times - I can go out one weekend and have a fab weekend, other times I feel the horse is doing his absolute best and we're marked down. I appreciate I'm not a judge and sometimes judges do see more than we feel, but there needs to be a tightening up at BD - I've written 3 or 4 letters and e-mails recently and severely complained about one judge. I was told it would eb investigated but over a year later I'm still waiting for answers. It has got to the point now that I ask who's judging when I ring for times - if it's a certain few then I'll withdraw from that class. I'm a very pessimistiv sensitive person anyways, I don't need to pay people to take me to pieces - I do a perfectly good job of that myself.

Where were you today? Who was juding? There are 2 judges that I now won't ride for - it's not worth the hassle. If they were constructive with their comments then so be it, but when there's a 5 or a 6 for movements that I would have thought better then it needs to be justified in my opinion. PM if you prefer.

Edited to ask - do judges get paid? I was under the impression that they do.
 
I wonder how difficult it would be to detail the judges in advance like you do with showing, at the end of the day it is subjective and we'll have to accept that not everyone is going to like everyone and differences will occur, but if we could vote with our entries so to speak it would mean the judges that lots of people didn't agree with would never get entries so thery wouldnot get used? I know getting judges is so hard this may not be practicle, but I do knwo the type you are talking about. and this would certainly highlight them!
 
Oh dear hun
frown.gif
sorry to hear this.

Nice to hear you have a good rant, very unlike you
wink.gif


Unfortunately, we all get this, I have judges who know me and because of this, mark me far harder (obviously present company excepted) If I ride pants i ride pants, but this is the problem with dressage and indeed showing, its the decision of one person
frown.gif
 
That’s dressage for you, unfortunately it’s someone’s point of view. You keep the good tests and dump the rubbish ones (well hide the ones with good constructive criticism).

Don’t take this the wrong way but if you are a dressage judge and you know it was a good test why are you so bothered? I thought that kind of thing would just wash over you?
confused.gif
 
Feel for you Delores - hopefully you're well and truely drowning those sorrows by now!

I have comments like 'very good' and then got a 7 - which actually should be a 9 according the scales of scoring for 'very good'. uuummmmmm
confused.gif
 
Sorry to be boring, but no-one can say a mark is undeserved unless they have sat exactly where the judge was and judged the whole class. I feel sorry that you didn't have a good day, but I truely dont feel that any judge WANTS to give someone a bad mark, rather than they mark what they see- and as list 4 - I'm sure you know that. Judges are only human and may on occassion get things a little wrong.

I think as a BD judge to discuss complaining about another judge on an open forum (even though you haven't named names) is not professional and encourages the wrong attitude
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think as a BD judge to discuss complaining about another judge on an open forum (even though you haven't named names) is not professional and encourages the wrong attitude

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, on a professional level you may have a point but D was only letting off steam, and to be honest I think it is quite refreshing to hear a judge put themself back in the competitors chair and to remember how the marks and comments do make or break a day and I'm sure all those reading this will take it in good spirit, we all moan about you judges but we hang on your every word written on those damn sheets
grin.gif
 
I beg to differ with you first comment in that one can't comment unless sat in the judges seat. I do believe that as a nation our worst critics are ourselves and if I have a bad day I will be the first to put my hand up and say so. On the other hand, I know my horse better than anyone and I know when he's going well and when that happens and the judging doesn't reflect it I question why I have invested all the time, money and effort into such a negative, unhappy experience. However, I and many others pay a hell of a lot of money for a fair, objective and balanced judging and I do feel that in some instances we don't get this. I have come across a hell of a lot more excellent judges than not so good one's - maybe we should sing their praises more often. Again, it is our nature to focus on the negatives rather than the positives. Dressage should NOT be subjective - one can't compare it to showing. It's not a person's opinion - it is judged against a set criteria that we must meet in order to achieve those marks. I should be able to go and ride for one judge and be marked in EXACTLY the same manner, with no variation, to another judge. We keep saying it's a thankless task - again I disagree. Judges are paid to be at a venue to judge and they CHOOSE to qualify and judge. Please nobody respond by saying that we need to appreciate the time they give up - I know only too well about giving my own time up to help at events and Pony Club (despite the fact that I am too old for PC and have no kids), but I don't continuously bang on about it and expecting people to be ever grateful. It's my choice to give up my time and I enjoy it - I wouldn't do it if I didn't. Of course I'm grateful - but at the end of the day if I went out for a meal and I was expected to pay for it I would expect the standard and service to be up to scratch - I am buying a product/ service. Competing is the same thing - I am paying for a product/ service and I expect to get what I pay for - whether the judge is there voluntarily or paid.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think as a BD judge to discuss complaining about another judge on an open forum (even though you haven't named names) is not professional and encourages the wrong attitude

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, on a professional level you may have a point but D was only letting off steam, and to be honest I think it is quite refreshing to hear a judge put themself back in the competitors chair and to remember how the marks and comments do make or break a day and I'm sure all those reading this will take it in good spirit, we all moan about you judges but we hang on your every word written on those damn sheets
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.... I found this very refreshing to hear a judge on the other side of the fence actually speaking out. And as others have said, there are too many inconsistencies these days....

I was out doing my ballerina bit on Saturday and my first mark in Prelim 13 was a 4 with the comment - "Very straight entry, good rhythym but nose tipping left"

Ok - 4 is Insufficient!!! But I was VERY straight with a good rhythym!

I hasten to add that this judge was rather well known for being very inconsistent and apparently I could have ridden before her the following day and got a 9!!!! Obviously she hadn't had her blue rinse renewed to hold her brain in place that day!
 
The work the horse produces can often feel alot different to how it looks.

I'm not saying that judges are all BD listed, trained and faultless, it just seems that no-one ever rides an bad or average test, it's always the judges fault (or in many instances) People sometimes have unrealistic ideas of the work they and there horse are producing, not that I'm saying Dolores has, but I just wanted to make the point that there seems to be a tendencies to blame the judge. We have all felt that we have been judged a little off at times, but it is best to put it down to experience and move on, there will be other times when you may get a higher mark than you deserve, but no-one will complain about that!

On the point of Judges getting paid, we don't we get expenses which adds up to sweet FA in many cases and we do do it for the love of it and have a responsibility to judge to the best of our ability and to train etc but competitors have a responsibility to take responsibility- blaming the judge is the easy option.

However I dont want this to turn into a rant and my comments appear to have caused a stir, but they were only meant to raise the point.

S-V saying that one judge should mark you exactly the same as another- judges are not robots, but human and with humans there will always be some variation, although by training the aim is to limit this. Judges have to make split second decisions and so some variations may arise.
 
I would hazard a guess that this way an unaffiliated competition with an unlisted judge.

I really feel that unaffiliated venues have a responsibility to try and book proper/experienced judges. In many cases people with no training are judging these classes which leads to the variation and comments not matching the marks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to be boring, but no-one can say a mark is undeserved unless they have sat exactly where the judge was and judged the whole class. I feel sorry that you didn't have a good day, but I truely dont feel that any judge WANTS to give someone a bad mark, rather than they mark what they see- and as list 4 - I'm sure you know that. Judges are only human and may on occassion get things a little wrong.

I think as a BD judge to discuss complaining about another judge on an open forum (even though you haven't named names) is not professional and encourages the wrong attitude

[/ QUOTE ]
Dont talk to me about unproffessional, if BD actually listened to us mere mortals there wold be no need for forums and for you information this particular judge is well known for her hideous favouritism, selects the classes she will judge ai BE contests, frequently misses errors and clearly has no concept of the scales of training. She can make whatever comment she likes as long as she can back it up but my frustration is that SHE COULDNT! i have written several times to BD about this subject they are not interested.
 
And the reason it doesnt wash over me is that i find it so frustrating that the standard of judging is so variable and that everyone doent get a fair chance. yes it is subjective but carl hester does not deserve extra points just for being carl. in eventing they call this phenomonen ' the funnell/foxpitt factor'. so i would say it must be pretty widespread and prevailent if this sort of thing has an unofficial title.
 
No need to get stressy with me, as I stated the main reason for my post was to highlight that many people blame the judge unfairly cos they can never a bad test and people aren't always honest and do alot of the time think it's better than is actually has been... Anyway these comments are not aimed at you.
 
I too get very frustrated when I hear about or see instances of poor judging (mainly at unaffiliated) as I work damn hard to be the best judge I can ad obviously some people dont and I too feel everyone deserves a fair chance, but as a BD judge would not discuss other listed judges failings on a forum
 
And well said sienna to ( and i am breathing now) and TOG and everyone who realises that i just got particularly aggravated today because i am a judge and HATE to see the job done badly.
I hope i am educated enough as a rider to know the difference between a 5 and an 8 when i sit on it, though obviously you are not SEEING it but i have got another judge on video giving a horse ridden by a girl i train 2, s and 3's when it actually performed the movement and though by no means perfect and in a BE Nov sec of 40 it was never going to win but at that level suerly not to give ah horse 50% good marks at least it must be breakdancing up the centre line. And on that occasion i did not rant on this forum but had a word with the organiser and was convinced that even with the video an official approach to BD was not a good idea because they were so short of judges anyway.
So i dont know where dressagechick is coming from because i have tried all the rcommended approaches and got no joy and people are paying lots of money and getting no value from it on many occasions not even a constructive sheet when they have finished ( like mine today) and i think that is not only unprofessional but frankly unacceptable!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Judges are paid to be at a venue to judge and they CHOOSE to qualify and judge.

[/ QUOTE ] No they are not - they only receive travelling expenses. I agree that there are some bad judges out there and organisers should try and choose the best judges available, but having been in the position of trying to organise an affiliated dressage competition myself, I know things don't run to plan. Judges can fall ill at the last minute, or be unable to attend for some other reason, and you are scrabbling round trying to find a suitably qualified alternative at the last minute and you have to accept what you can get or lose the class. Gets worse as you go up the levels as smaller number of judges on the highest lists.
 
I wasn't ranting last night at all
laugh.gif
I was merely putting my point of view as a competitor across. I was under the impression judges were paid - I do know of a couple of events that do pay (PM me if you want to know where
grin.gif
).

I appreciate judges are humans - but there shouldn't be such a variation in marks. I did say in my post that I was my own worst critic - I know when me horse isn't going well and when it is and have done enough dressage to be able to compare days and tests.

My point is, whether judges get paid or not, venues that run affiliated competitions rake in a hell of a lot of money from us competitiors - this is their job, the sme as my job is mine which we all get paid for. I think a lot of places need to start understanding that we pay £15+ for one class that lasts 5 minutes - I expect that when I pay for that service that it is delivered. If the horse goes badly then so be it - I put it down to experience, but when one produces nice, accurate and obedient tests...
 
Just to add...maybe if judges accepted that they need to be more consistent in their judging without going on the defensive by saying "we're not robots..." maybe it would be a start? Sorry that's not to add fuel to the fire, but as people we are naturally resistant to change...
laugh.gif
 
Ladies, I think you both have valid points to be honest:

Yes there is the 'carl hester' factor - or is it 'spencer' at the mo!

Yes competitiors do jump on the judge when their marks are disappointing, before having a quiet think about the work they actually put infront of the judge - the judge doesn't know that your horse went better that day than any other, they have 4-5 minutes to judge what they see at that moment in time.

Yes there is and will always be variations in judging, it is subjective but agree this should be kept to a minimum through the judge training scheme.

I am very pleased to see that you are both very passionate about your duty as a judge and that is encouraging for when the blue rinse brigade move over - although without them dressage would probable not have been opened up to the masses in the first place so lets applaud them for that!
 
I personally think all judges should be open to criticism and that they should be aware of this and the nature of it. I do not subscribe to the 'holier than thou' approach. Having said that, in some areas - ours being one - judges that are Listed are like hen's teeth. Those few (two I think) that are above List 4 and within an 80 mile radius are very busy and hard to get. As a result some centres no longer offer affiliated events.

It has been said before - knowledgeable people with the time to do unpaid work are difficult to find and must be looked after. I am about to commence my training but have judged unaffiliated, PC and RC dressage quite frequently. I try to get feedback whenever I can. I also compete at Novice/Elementary level (now a rather stiff pensioner)and my daughters event. I have decided to 'give something back' by offering my time to do this. I might say we volunteers are usually looked after very well with food and drink ad lib but not always - very important to judge's morale and organisers may want them to come back in the future.
 
I have thought for some time that dressage judges should be subject to some 'quality' measures, involving random tests being videod and assessed against what they wrote on the sheet at the time.
I have had a couple of instances where the test I rode simply bore no relation to the test or score I received. Sometimes it has not been so much the score as the comments which have had me baffled and I' ve wondered whether the sheets were mixed up with someone elses.
Earlier this year I was cursing myself for not having filmed one particular test as I wanted to send it and the accompanying sheet to BE/BD to ask for an explanation.
Funny to see you thinking the same thing.
 
I wasn't being defensive- it is hard to get tone of voice across in text, I was just saying that is why there is some variation- as humans are judging not robots. I personally do my damdest to judge accurately and professionally every time- I am aware some judges may not and am very aware that standards of judging vary. Again I was simply highlighting that it is easy to blame the judge.
 
This may not be the case in your situation, and PLEASE dont think I am defending poor judging as I'm not I work very hard to be the best judge I can and some don't but I believe BE (defenately at lower levels) do not have to use listed judges- but the classes can be judged by anyone they think is capable. These people aren't subject to the same training as BD judges and so more variation can arise.

Believe me I get frustrated when my friends and pupils get bizarre comments/marks etc, however I find that in the main these are not from listed judges.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top