Tempi
Well-Known Member
ive learnt to take these situations with a pinch of salt and just walk away............
dressage judging
- Thread starter lorenababbit
- Start date
lorenababbit
Well-Known Member
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I personally think all judges should be open to criticism and that they should be aware of this and the nature of it. I do not subscribe to the 'holier than thou' approach. Having said that, in some areas - ours being one - judges that are Listed are like hen's teeth. Those few (two I think) that are above List 4 and within an 80 mile radius are very busy and hard to get. As a result some centres no longer offer affiliated events.
It has been said before - knowledgeable people with the time to do unpaid work are difficult to find and must be looked after. I am about to commence my training but have judged unaffiliated, PC and RC dressage quite frequently. I try to get feedback whenever I can. I also compete at Novice/Elementary level (now a rather stiff pensioner)and my daughters event. I have decided to 'give something back' by offering my time to do this. I might say we volunteers are usually looked after very well with food and drink ad lib but not always - very important to judge's morale and organisers may want them to come back in the future.
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Well said.
I personally think all judges should be open to criticism and that they should be aware of this and the nature of it. I do not subscribe to the 'holier than thou' approach. Having said that, in some areas - ours being one - judges that are Listed are like hen's teeth. Those few (two I think) that are above List 4 and within an 80 mile radius are very busy and hard to get. As a result some centres no longer offer affiliated events.
It has been said before - knowledgeable people with the time to do unpaid work are difficult to find and must be looked after. I am about to commence my training but have judged unaffiliated, PC and RC dressage quite frequently. I try to get feedback whenever I can. I also compete at Novice/Elementary level (now a rather stiff pensioner)and my daughters event. I have decided to 'give something back' by offering my time to do this. I might say we volunteers are usually looked after very well with food and drink ad lib but not always - very important to judge's morale and organisers may want them to come back in the future.
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Well said.
lorenababbit
Well-Known Member
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I have thought for some time that dressage judges should be subject to some 'quality' measures, involving random tests being videod and assessed against what they wrote on the sheet at the time.
I have had a couple of instances where the test I rode simply bore no relation to the test or score I received. Sometimes it has not been so much the score as the comments which have had me baffled and I' ve wondered whether the sheets were mixed up with someone elses.
Earlier this year I was cursing myself for not having filmed one particular test as I wanted to send it and the accompanying sheet to BE/BD to ask for an explanation.
Funny to see you thinking the same thing.
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And well said to you also.
I have thought for some time that dressage judges should be subject to some 'quality' measures, involving random tests being videod and assessed against what they wrote on the sheet at the time.
I have had a couple of instances where the test I rode simply bore no relation to the test or score I received. Sometimes it has not been so much the score as the comments which have had me baffled and I' ve wondered whether the sheets were mixed up with someone elses.
Earlier this year I was cursing myself for not having filmed one particular test as I wanted to send it and the accompanying sheet to BE/BD to ask for an explanation.
Funny to see you thinking the same thing.
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And well said to you also.
LifeofRiley
Well-Known Member
This is exactly the reason why I have given up trying in dressage - it's so biased and unfair - at least with jumping it's simplier - you go clear or you dont!
Sparklet
Well-Known Member
I have organised quite a few unaffiliated dressage competitions and whereever possible I have used listed judges - yes they are more consistent but the main reason for using them is that it is much easier to fend off the complaints from those that have not won. You are never going to please everyone!
I think they do a very difficult job but at the end of the day you are always going to be left with opinion - yes you can ramdomly video judges and criticise and query their judgements as a form of quality check but I suspect all that will happen is that they will refuse to put themselves up for that type of scrutiny, thus fewer judges!
I keep my sheets and you do get to know that certain judges absolutely hate some types of fault and will mark a horse displaying their pet hate more harshly and perhaps another judge would - for example in free walk is not overtracking worse than not stretching over the back? Is a forward going horse with a tight neck worse than a horse lacking engagement? It is always going to include some personal opinion and as competitiors we surely have to accept that.
I know for certain - I would not be a judge for all the tea in China!
I think they do a very difficult job but at the end of the day you are always going to be left with opinion - yes you can ramdomly video judges and criticise and query their judgements as a form of quality check but I suspect all that will happen is that they will refuse to put themselves up for that type of scrutiny, thus fewer judges!
I keep my sheets and you do get to know that certain judges absolutely hate some types of fault and will mark a horse displaying their pet hate more harshly and perhaps another judge would - for example in free walk is not overtracking worse than not stretching over the back? Is a forward going horse with a tight neck worse than a horse lacking engagement? It is always going to include some personal opinion and as competitiors we surely have to accept that.
I know for certain - I would not be a judge for all the tea in China!
TURBOBERT
Well-Known Member
From the competitors point of view my marks are very variable - I have a big paced long backed horse who nevertheless tracks up - some judges love him and some expect him to be as round as a cob and take no note of his movement! I just accept this but can be as much as 13% difference under different judges for same standard of test . Thats life and I certainly wouldnt hunt out the judges that like him!
Iestyn
Well-Known Member
I know what u mean - what I said wasn't aimed at you though - please don't think I was having a pop.
Folara
Well-Known Member
We have the same problem as you. Gen is a basically a coloured cob that can move. Most of the time he is judged very fairly and gains the marks that are deserved for the movement. He has very good days and he has very bad days - thats him and we accept this.
However, what REALLY annoys me is that at one particular venue there is one particular judge (who I believe is fairly high in the grades) and she constistently marks Gen and Mike 15% LOWER than ANY OTHER place/judge. Not only that but she puts comments such as "at least the horse and rider look happy". Why is this? I find that really degrading towards both my horse and Mike.
I know that Dressage will always be subjective - its human nature - what one judge 'sees' another may not.
Judges aren't robots and do have a pretty thankless job to do but there are some that really DO need to go back to basics and judge the horse in front of them with a little less of a biased eye.
However, what REALLY annoys me is that at one particular venue there is one particular judge (who I believe is fairly high in the grades) and she constistently marks Gen and Mike 15% LOWER than ANY OTHER place/judge. Not only that but she puts comments such as "at least the horse and rider look happy". Why is this? I find that really degrading towards both my horse and Mike.
I know that Dressage will always be subjective - its human nature - what one judge 'sees' another may not.
Judges aren't robots and do have a pretty thankless job to do but there are some that really DO need to go back to basics and judge the horse in front of them with a little less of a biased eye.
Iestyn
Well-Known Member
This whole human/ not robot thing. What if GCSE/ A level/ Degree markers said this - "I'm sorry but I'm not a robot"? They are expected to mark papers according to a set criteria and whether they are having a good or a bad day they must remain professional with it. I teach and when I mark SATS papers I do find it difficult to follow that set critieria but I have to, in favour of all the children. It's not a good enough excuse IMO - as I have said before we pay for a serivce, I expect the standard and consistency.
I agree that if there was a monitioring process then many, many judges would say "bugger off" - but if this were the norm and the standard then they would soon get used to it - as teachers we are constantly observed and monitored - it helps us keep our standards and it is good professional development in having constructive criticism on what you do - I would be more than happy for anyone to sit in my classroom. Those judges that are marking consistently and fairly will have nothing to worry about - they have nothing to cover up.
The only way things are going to change is to keep in contact with the governing bodies - if we record our tests and send them accompanied with the relevant test sheets, then that is a form of monitoring?
I'd just like to say though, I have very rarely come across unfair judges - if they mark low they are marking consistently low and vice versa. It's only one or two that have spoilt my days out and in all the dressage I've done now I must thank all those that have made me and my horse very, very happy - we truly are thankful and would not want their enjoyment of the sport and judging spoilt with all this whinging!
I agree that if there was a monitioring process then many, many judges would say "bugger off" - but if this were the norm and the standard then they would soon get used to it - as teachers we are constantly observed and monitored - it helps us keep our standards and it is good professional development in having constructive criticism on what you do - I would be more than happy for anyone to sit in my classroom. Those judges that are marking consistently and fairly will have nothing to worry about - they have nothing to cover up.
The only way things are going to change is to keep in contact with the governing bodies - if we record our tests and send them accompanied with the relevant test sheets, then that is a form of monitoring?
I'd just like to say though, I have very rarely come across unfair judges - if they mark low they are marking consistently low and vice versa. It's only one or two that have spoilt my days out and in all the dressage I've done now I must thank all those that have made me and my horse very, very happy - we truly are thankful and would not want their enjoyment of the sport and judging spoilt with all this whinging!
lorenababbit
Well-Known Member
Damn well said again S V and the post before you too and i for one would be very happy to be monitored and /or observed as long as it wasnt the old blue rinse brigade who were doing it.
And the poster who said her coloured horse is often marked significantly lower by one judge in particular you are not wrong. i have been sittig in when certain types are harshly marked for being as they are when it is the quality of the training to enhance the natural paces that should be the criteria for a score not just that the judge doesnt like coloureds or clyde crosses or field ponies.
i was informed after a previous post on this subject that BD monitor this site....PLEASE GOD THEY DO!!!!
And the poster who said her coloured horse is often marked significantly lower by one judge in particular you are not wrong. i have been sittig in when certain types are harshly marked for being as they are when it is the quality of the training to enhance the natural paces that should be the criteria for a score not just that the judge doesnt like coloureds or clyde crosses or field ponies.
i was informed after a previous post on this subject that BD monitor this site....PLEASE GOD THEY DO!!!!
Iestyn
Well-Known Member
Have you been following the articles in H&H with someone training with Ulla Salzberger (sp?)? Even at the lower grades where they are there are always 2 judges judging a test - the scores are then averaged. I think that would cut out a lot of these problems - but then have we got enough judges to do this?
TURBOBERT
Well-Known Member
No - sadly! Maybe in the Midlands and the South but certainly NOT in the North East......
lorenababbit
Well-Known Member
i think the problems are unlikely to be solved until somenne high up in BD uses the new broom approach
Folara
Well-Known Member
dolores - thank you. I think ALL horses should be judged for correctness of training and not for fancy paces. Isnt that the essence of what dressage should be? Again if Gen is going like a drain and gets marked accordingly then so be it - thats life and he is after all an animal and not a robot either (
).
S_V sorry I know what you are saying about the robot. I dont think I really got across what I meant. I was just thinking that what you might give as a 6 for a certain movement someone else may well give a 5 or a 7. That can of course make a big diff. at the end of the test. Also marking a movement is a little different to marking a written piece of work. A movement can be there and gone again in seconds and an instant decision must be made. So sometimes the judge may simply blink and miss the horse swinging its bum in for a fraction for example. Oh dear does that make sense?
I also agree - if BD do monitor then lets hope they take on board what is being said.
Is the forum bit working on the BD site yet? The would be a great place for this sort of discussion.
S_V sorry I know what you are saying about the robot. I dont think I really got across what I meant. I was just thinking that what you might give as a 6 for a certain movement someone else may well give a 5 or a 7. That can of course make a big diff. at the end of the test. Also marking a movement is a little different to marking a written piece of work. A movement can be there and gone again in seconds and an instant decision must be made. So sometimes the judge may simply blink and miss the horse swinging its bum in for a fraction for example. Oh dear does that make sense?
I also agree - if BD do monitor then lets hope they take on board what is being said.
Is the forum bit working on the BD site yet? The would be a great place for this sort of discussion.
PaddyMonty
Well-Known Member
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but I believe BE (defenately at lower levels) do not have to use listed judges- but the classes can be judged by anyone they think is capable. These people aren't subject to the same training as BD judges and so more variation can arise.
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Not the case. Judge (even for Intro) has to be either a list 6 or someone who has competed BD at medium level or above.
All other levels of BE must be judged by listed judges.
My OH has been the victim of blue rinse brigade. Towards the end of her elementries when she was consistently scoring 65-69% she rode in front of this particular judge. Wasn't a bad test, I can usually score them within 1% of the judges and I reckoned around the 62% mark. YOu can imagine our disgust when she recieved a score of 53%. We we chating about it to a close friend a few days later (list 3 judge) and he couldn't believe they hadn't pensioned her off yet. He thought it might have been that she couldn't see a 14.1 pony at more than 20 mtrs so missed 2/3rds of the test.
That said I have found judging (BD) generally to be very fair.
Sure some judges penalise more for errors and mark up for quality but the middle point is roughly even.
but I believe BE (defenately at lower levels) do not have to use listed judges- but the classes can be judged by anyone they think is capable. These people aren't subject to the same training as BD judges and so more variation can arise.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not the case. Judge (even for Intro) has to be either a list 6 or someone who has competed BD at medium level or above.
All other levels of BE must be judged by listed judges.
My OH has been the victim of blue rinse brigade. Towards the end of her elementries when she was consistently scoring 65-69% she rode in front of this particular judge. Wasn't a bad test, I can usually score them within 1% of the judges and I reckoned around the 62% mark. YOu can imagine our disgust when she recieved a score of 53%. We we chating about it to a close friend a few days later (list 3 judge) and he couldn't believe they hadn't pensioned her off yet. He thought it might have been that she couldn't see a 14.1 pony at more than 20 mtrs so missed 2/3rds of the test.
That said I have found judging (BD) generally to be very fair.
Sure some judges penalise more for errors and mark up for quality but the middle point is roughly even.
Zebedee
Well-Known Member
Sorry to have to disagree with you, but B.E. can & do use unlisted judges for intro & pre-novice. We're not all bad you know, some of us just don't have the time or the money to get ourselves listed!!!.
lorenababbit
Well-Known Member
You arre entirely right Zeb, and in fact there are several officially retired judges or no longer listed for other reasons that still do BE classes. And i believe Intro can officially be judged by a rider who has competed (not won or even completed) at Adv level BE.