Dressage judging

[christine48]

Anyone else ever fell like giving up when you feel you have been unfairly marked? We went to Addington today with a mare who has only been out of the first 2 twice before. She always gets between 66% &73%. Today she got 62% & 59%. She went no differently to how she always goes. The majority of the class were low marks, hardly anyone getting qualifying marks.
Luckily we videoed the test so are going to complain.
It costs so much to get the horses out with fuel and entry fees these days, I'd like to see the names of the judges published before we enter so we can make the decision as to enter or not.
The annoying thing is now she has a bad result on her record.

 

[AmyMay]

What were the comments on your sheet?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Anyone else ever fell like giving up when you feel you have been unfairly marked?

Pretty much anyone who has ever competed at dressage will feel like this occasionally. You come out of the arena thinking that you did all right and then the marks are put up......It is best to just suck it up, learn what you can from it and move on.

As Amymay says, though, what were the comments?

Not sure that complaining about a low mark is a good move long term, as word gets around.

 

[TarrSteps]

Pretty much anyone who has ever competed at dressage will feel like this occasionally. You come out of the arena thinking that you did all right and then the marks are put up......It is best to just suck it up, learn what you can from it and move on.

As Amymay says, though, what were the comments?

Not sure that complaining about a low mark is a good move long term, as word gets around.

I'm not sure you need to worry about retribution but, more to the point, what would they do about it? I guess you could ask the venue not to use that judge again but there aren't an infinite number of options and then they shouldn't use anyone overly generous either. . .oddly, sloes hardly ever get complaints about those ones.

I can see why it's frustrating, with such an emphasis on qualifying scores but, strictly speaking, neither that nor the cost of competing is the judge's problem. It's also not their job to be 'encouraging' and I think some - rightly - feel a bit grumpy about the idea that they *should* provide the scores they think they should have for qualifying etc.

I had a trainer whose mantra was, 'Make 'em take it away!' It may not be popular advice but the better you are, the harder it is to find fault.

 

[Fuzzypuff]

If you watch back your video and really think your scores were not deserved then do complain to BD - if they keep getting complaints about a particular judge then they will do something about it - if they don't get the complaints then they won't know to do anything.

 

[TarrSteps]

If you watch back your video and really think your scores were not deserved then do complain to BD - if they keep getting, complaints about a particular judge then they will do something about it - if they don't get the complaints then they won't know to do anything.

Tbf, this is true and a valid point. People can only fix problems they know about.

My point was only that there isn't much they can do about the marks already given, and possibly even about employing the judge in the near future. To some extent, vagaries in judging go with the game and I don't think one badly marked day should give anyone cause to doubt their whole program. But if an actual injustice has been done, that's obviously different.

 

[noname]

Unfortunately complaining won't get you very far. I know of cases where the judge is judging their boyfriend one week and riding the same horse the next week. Equally we're expected to suck up a 20-40 mark difference between judges at petplans and regionals (even at prelim).

There are not sufficient disciplinary procedures in place and as judges are paid such a small amount, they are basically volunteers and so we are told to be more grateful. I don't think the cost to the competitor properly resinates with BD or judges at the moment (unless they compete themselves).

It's annoying that there is an assumption that competitors in BD are rolling in money and can't buy enough bling! I'd much rather they focused on the judging issue and stopped wasting time making up rules for clothing and qualifiers but that's Just my opinion and it's difficult for BD to balance when people are deliberately entering classes they are not eligible for!

At least you can send the one sheet off for an area festival. Put the other sheet in the shredder it's therapeutic.

Then analyse the test and the video critically, did you achieve what you were hoping to achieve in terms of your performance. We're you able to reproduce in the arena what you were training on at home. How had the competition helped you towards your longer term goals and what do you need to work on in the future? Just think about the bigger picture and try not to obsess over it!

 

[ihatework]

We all think we have been hard done by every now and again.
Funnily enough we don't complain quite so loudly if we get a surprisingly good mark for what we feel was a substandard test

 

[Booboos]

We all think we have been hard done by every now and again.
Funnily enough we don't complain quite so loudly if we get a surprisingly good mark for what we feel was a substandard test

This! I've had as many surprising low marks I've had surprising high marks! It's a subjective discipline so you have to go with what the person judging you thought on the day, that's life.

 

[TarrSteps]

We all think we have been hard done by every now and again.
Funnily enough we don't complain quite so loudly if we get a surprisingly good mark for what we feel was a substandard test

a4

As I say, at the end of your life you have the right number of prizes, you just don't necessity have them for the right things!

 

[JustKickOn]

Christine48, if all of the scores for the class were low, look at where you were positioned in the class in comparison to others. Some judges have very different preferences to what they do and don't like. Forget about these results, no doubt you will go out and be scoring higher in your next tests.

Unfortunately complaining won't get you very far. I know of cases where the judge is judging their boyfriend one week and riding the same horse the next week.

Perhaps you need to mention this to the show centre next time this happens! BD judges are not allowed to judge horse and rider combinations they train on a regular basis (regular is once a month or more, according to judge rules), horses they ride regularly or horses which they have put training into themselves, within a certain time period, IIRC. A BD judge told me this when I did some dressage writing, as he had to do a bit of class jiggling with some other judges in order to comply with rules.

 

[Pigeon]

You should post the vid

But yes. Been there. To be honest usually we deserved the appalling mark. (our personal best has been 42%) so try to look at the positives - she's never usually out of the top two! Perhaps think about going up a level?

 

[christine48]

One of the comments was 'fragile in contact' which is surprising as she's very good to the contact.
another was 'straight but quarters slightly crooked' - well she isnt straight then, thats just contradicting herself.
her rein back wasn't good and we thought would be a 5 which it was, but the movements she did well were still 5 & 6. interestingly the other horse we took did a really good rein back, straight, no resistance and that got 6, only 1 mark better. I know it is difficult to get judges as they dont get paid a great deal but they can at least be encouraging. it seems that at the lower level you get the less experienced judges and they tend to stick around the 5 & 6 mark.
i do know someone who is very high in BD and they are looking at judges and some are being re assessed, sowill show him the video & sheet.

 

[Pigeon]

Def post the vid, would be very interesting.

I've had one like that, we did what I thought was our personal best and got 59%. We'd done the same test a week before (and did it worse) and got 70%. Unfortunately nothing constructive, the comments said the horse 'muddled' and I 'fumbled'. What does that mean and what am I supposed to do about it?! Kicking myself for not getting it on video, it was a perfectly good test and I did a double take on picking up the sheet because it seemed completely unrelated to what we just rode through! Hollowed in one canter transition and got a 4, did the second canter transition BEAUTIFULLY and got a 4.... Wonder if it was the same person?

 

[ihatework]

I once got a comment that my leg yield was 'too lateral', I still PMSL at that comment now.

 

[christine48]

Some of the marks in the class were good, but these were the bigger moving horses. I do feel sometimes judges get wowed by movement and then over look correct training. i think when you get up the levels judging is more consistant.

 

[shortstuff99]

Some of the marks in the class were good, but these were the bigger moving horses. I do feel sometimes judges get wowed by movement and then over look correct training. i think when you get up the levels judging is more consistant.

I'm not too sure of this as my mare has amazing movement but at the moment suffers from tension and lack of straightness and I get pretty penalised for it so I'm not sure where these judges hide that get wowed by movement! I want one!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Some of the marks in the class were good, but these were the bigger moving horses. I do feel sometimes judges get wowed by movement and then over look correct training.

I'm afraid that it was ever thus. I had the privilege of being trained by the late Julie Basil BHSI, and she debunked some lofty reputations when she judged affiliated dressage! She always marked the horse in front of her, and was never swayed by its price tag or by the CV of its jockey. As all judges do, of course !!

 

[Shrimp]

Thats judging for you!
I wouldn't get too worked up about one competition and how it looks on your results, it happens to most people. Its a bit hit and miss with my horse, he is a little thoroughbred and whilst no way flashy, he is generally very correct and won't put a foot wrong (pretty much always above 65% Novice affiliated with several 70%+ scores) and some judges like this and other's think it's not enough 'oomph' and so mark us down, but thats just the way he is. One judge Im not fond of judged me at the areas this year and for my first centre line (we usually get 8's as he is very very straight) put 'very straight, good balance on turn' and gave us a 7 which in BD means 'fairly good' which is not what her comments reflected! So makes me think what on earth did I need to do better!?) and overall was a fair bit lower than other judge and probably cost us a finals place but hey ho it happens, I was ecstatic to be there as I nearly lost my horse earlier this year so think of the bigger picture. Look at your comments and scores in a positive manner and use them as a boost for you to prove yourselves and wipe the board next time you are out

Tiddlypom - Julie Basil judged me numerous times through my teenage years, she once gave me a 9 (FWLR on my very long backed not dressage like in any way connie cross pony) and I nearly collapsed in shock! Yet i still got the 5's where it wasn't so good..

 

[kc100]

We all have days like this with dressage, and I totally agree - they should be publishing the names of judges in advance (at least on the same day as you get your times so you have enough warning to withdraw if you want to).

However if all combinations were marked harshly on the day then your placing should have not been that much different to what it normally is - if everyone is marked harshly then your placing will not change, just your marks. If the judge had a preference for the big moving horses, well again that's dressage for you. If you put a native horse or a horse who is well trained but lacks flashy paces next to a big moving WB then of course the WB is going to do better (providing it is also well trained and obedient of course) - dressage is about the movement of the horse, and if you get more exaggerated paces in the mediums/extensions, and better collection in the collected movements then that is going to score better than a horse that cannot show as much difference in its paces.

I completely agree that judges should not be giving amazing scores to flashy horses when said flashy horse is not as obedient, relaxed etc as say a non-typical dressage horse - but perhaps have you stopped to think those horses that got the better scores were in fact just as obedient, relaxed and 'correct' as your horse but also showed the impressive paces? WB's can do all of that as well you know, Valegro wouldnt have got to where he is if he wasnt correct as well as flashy.

I love to see non-typical dressage horses doing well, I write a lot for judges and I'd say 9/10 judges love to see a good native/TB/ISH in a test, when the horse is working nicely in an outline and is very obedient and correct the judges always mark these horses well. However they never get 'wow' marks like some WB's can, purely because they are not bred for the 'wow' movements. This isnt saying its not possible, there are plenty of ex-racers out there doing some incredible work and getting scored very well for it. But generally when you are up against good well trained big movers, they are going to get better scores than you I'm afraid, that is just dressage and how it works.

We also forget a lot of the time what 5 and 6 actually means, 5 means sufficient and 6 is satisfactory. They are actually good marks, it means you performed the movements and didnt make any mistakes. Clearly this particular judge reserves the 7's and 8's for horses that make the movements you performed correctly into 'wow' movements.

Take it on the chin, this is dressage and this is the sport we have chosen to compete in. Dressage is based on 1 person's opinion (hence why higher levels introduce more judges to alleviate this issue), whereas something like showjumping is based on very clear cut factors i.e. time or knocking a pole down. Dressage is subjective, we are presenting our horses to 1 person who then judges what they see. If they see a correct test just lacking wow factor then a 5 or 6 is perfectly reasonable based on what 5 or 6 means.

Maybe work with your trainer on developing some more expression in your horse's paces to help when you come up against a harsh judge with a preference for flashy horses. In an ideal world judges would not have any preference for breeding or big movers but fact is they do exist and will always exist, so learn from this and just work harder with the horse you have got to get you closer to these flashy big movers.

 

[Fanatical]

One of the comments was 'fragile in contact' which is surprising as she's very good to the contact.
another was 'straight but quarters slightly crooked' - well she isnt straight then, thats just contradicting herself.
her rein back wasn't good and we thought would be a 5 which it was, but the movements she did well were still 5 & 6. interestingly the other horse we took did a really good rein back, straight, no resistance and that got 6, only 1 mark better. I know it is difficult to get judges as they dont get paid a great deal but they can at least be encouraging. it seems that at the lower level you get the less experienced judges and they tend to stick around the 5 & 6 mark.
i do know someone who is very high in BD and they are looking at judges and some are being re assessed, sowill show him the video & sheet.

Have you looked up what list the judge is on? I have found that sometimes if you have a higher list judge they will mark much more harshly.

Also remember that judges are only human and CAN make mistakes. They are only marking what is infront of them. As long as they are consistent throughout the class, it shouldn't matter. Where was your horse placed in relation to everyone else?

Dressage is subjective - everyone has good days and bad days. The bad days help you appreciate the good days more.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tiddlypom - Julie Basil judged me numerous times through my teenage years, she once gave me a 9 (FWLR on my very long backed not dressage like in any way connie cross pony) and I nearly collapsed in shock! Yet i still got the 5's where it wasn't so good..

Shrimp, that '9' will have been totally deserved if 'The Basil' awarded it to you! Impressive.

 

[dianchi]

I do now ask at Unafill who the judges are as there are just some that do not like my TB mare- and im not wasting my money! Esp when trying to qualify for things!

I don't see how it is any different to Showing- I have worked on the top showing yards and when shows were announced and schedules out shows were picked for horses based on the judges that were judging that class.

I know that Patchetts post the judges at the point of times (and tbh they use the same pool regularly)

Equally BD need to know if there is an issue- how else can they look into it if people don't speak up!

 

[core]

Judges have two ways of scoring riders (normally). Either they start from 5 and award for better than average execution, or they start from 10 and reduce it for imperfections.

This is a good research paper on dressage scoring in the U.S.: http://www.pvda.org/Documents/Scori...as in United States Dressage Competitions.pdf

 

[christine48]

Judges have two ways of scoring riders (normally). Either they start from 5 and award for better than average execution, or they start from 10 and reduce it for imperfections.

This is a good research paper on dressage scoring in the U.S.: http://www.pvda.org/Documents/Scori...as in United States Dressage Competitions.pdf

Very true, I think you are right. Just disappointing when you have got up at 5 am! The other thing is she is for sale and until then had a fantastic record.

 

[Booboos]

I once got a comment that my leg yield was 'too lateral', I still PMSL at that comment now.

Wouldn't that mean that your leg yield was too sideways and not sufficiently forward? That's quite a common problem.

 

[Abbeygale]

Some judges will always mark harder than others - some people are more picky than others - which goes for riders & judges. I can honestly say that I have never worried who is judging. I am of the view that I would rather not know until I get to that arena, and by that time I will either ride a good test or a bad test - regardless of who the judge is. I would rather be of the view that if I end up in front of a judge who marks hard, to prove that I am *that* good to be worth the good marks.

 

[nikkimariet]

I don't think anyone can top the comments on this...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...346601175367.592320.51669025366&type=1&ref=nf

 

[ihatework]

I don't think anyone can top the comments on this...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...346601175367.592320.51669025366&type=1&ref=nf

I think the funniest thing about that is that there are people commenting who haven't twigged its a joke!!

 

[Kikke]

Don't get me started. I have done competed at drassage from the age of 8 and this year I have given up after getting the same judge with rather unfair comments about 4 times in a row. never cried when getting my sheets back but did now.
this went hand in hand with me starting to jump my mare and I discovered how much I enjoy jumping and how fair it really is. No judge telling you their opinion etc.
I love it. may still fo the odd competition but really enjoy my jumping now!