Dressage Judging

[mat]

VERY interesting reply! Especially what you mentioned about stallions. In my signature the only stallion whose 'poll is the highest point' is the 3 y/o who hasnt got a stallion crest yet!

I also noticed at the championships that they horses where far too advenced for the level in some cases, but where getting good scores, I did think to myself that is not a novice outline!!

I have also I think mentioned on here before that I saw a rider, who is relatively well known qualify one horse for the regionals at Advanced Medium, Medium, Elementary, and then novice, in that order!! How can a rider make a horse that advanced go suitably for a novice class?!

 

[Folara]

Oooh please come and judge us. I feel we would be judged pretty fairly with your attitude and its a shame some of the 'iron knicker brigade' didnt listen more.

We always go to a Regional expecting to get 5% less there than anywhere else but you are right, why should this be? If it was all being judged by the same criteria then the marks should remain pretty consistent. I know you have 3 judges so of course you get a slight variation. One thing I have found interesting is what is the point of having 3 judges who are all sat up one end? We had this at the Winter Regionals. These judges can only see the same as each other - although looking at our marks you would have thought they were looking at 3 diff. horses. Surely IF they are going to use 3 judges they should be PLACED at the different places i.e. A, C and E/B not all sat next to each other.

We often find that we get far more comments and constructive criticism from the younger judges so I think there is a gradual 'lifting of the blinkers' and a greater fairness of judging coming into play now.

 

[Folara]

[ QUOTE ]
I also noticed at the championships that they horses where far too advenced for the level in some cases, but where getting good scores, I did think to myself that is not a novice outline!!

I have also I think mentioned on here before that I saw a rider, who is relatively well known qualify one horse for the regionals at Advanced Medium, Medium, Elementary, and then novice, in that order!! How can a rider make a horse that advanced go suitably for a novice class?!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty common really. We now only tend to work at one level and compete at one level otherwise he finds it confusing and gets tense. Interestingly when Gen moved up to Novice his marks for Prelim dropped down and we all assumed he was working in too advanced an outline for that level so we stopped doing prelim.

I have in the past actually heard a judge call the unknown competitors the 'also rans' so she obviously already had her criteria set in her mind - and it wasnt based on the training scales!!!

 

[zac]

No such thing as a horse having too advanced an outline. If a (truly) advanced horse were to turn up to compete at a much lower (say prelim or a novice) then, I would fully expect them to sweep the board with 90+ percent... and why not.

The problem is whether lower-list / less experienced judges actually spot the difference between an advanced horse in the correct outline and a more novice one being forced into a "more advanced" outline and therefore becoming tense and stiff thru the the back, poll and mouth? Indeed some judges would mark up the tense "being forced into it" horse and mark down the relaxed advanced horse with the muscle structure and balance to actually carry it off.

 

[dondiegodane]

ok, Firstly this is Freestyler...

my computer at work has gone on the blink so I am under another name!!

I do have to agree with Zac on this and this is what is confusing me. If you train your horse, then decide to compete but your training has incorporated all the right ingredients for prelim ie. forward/contact/rhythmn/balance BUT to a higher degree than expected at Prelim level, veering more towards say Novice level expectations but you have not competed this horse before, why should your horse be penalized? In my opinion if you are a little advanced in your training and your horse has the muscle and capability to hold himself correctly without tension/resistance why get marked down because he is too advanced? So you do pants at Prelim level but better at Novice? This just does not make sense because if you do not do well at Prelim surely they are saying you have not got the foundations to further your training?


QUOTE" The other , especially irritating when you have stallions is..'poll not the highest point' that one has actually lost me a regional title! and is about the judge using a phrase that they have heard but dont really understand .

Are judges also taught about the biomechanics/muscular system of the horse out of interest? I ask this because I do not know how Judges are taught but would be interested to know. We can tell much from the way the mucles move too. Which muscles move parts of the body blah blah!!!!

At the Winter Regionals where all judges were sat in a line I thought it was comical as the one on the end had to keep on getting up out of her chair to see certain movements! Poor thing! Yes, I do think if you are going to have three Judges do as they do at the College Regionals, C B and E!

 

[JLav]

Have to agree with zac and freestyler on this one. I would not mark a horse down because it is in a more advanced balance/frame then the level requires and in my opinion it is wrong to do so. The required amount of suppleness, engagement, lightness etc at novice level is not something which is a 'fixed' quantity. We expect to see a minimum level to fulfill the requirements of the test but are delighted if the horse is presented in a way which shows they are more delveloped than that. (Or at least I am!!)

I do find that some lower listed judges tend to spurt out stock phrases without necessarily being able to see the whole picture but to some degree we must blame BD for allowing them on the list if their knowledge is lacking. I have a few judges in my area who I feel so strongly should not be judging that I will withdraw if I get to a show and they are sitting at the end of the centre line. This can also exlpain why sometimes you get lower marks at a lower level as you may have a less experienced judge.

I do find the comment re poll low losing you a class at the regionals a little odd though as only highly experienced List 1 and 2 judges are used for those (and 3 of them) so perhaps there was more to it as it seems unlikely they'd miss the bigger picture.

We are all only human and any judge who claims that they have never made a mistake ie missed a change, told a competitor they had gone wrong when they haven't, missed the fact that a horse has boots on etc etc is kidding themselves and again that's another reason we have a jury when it matters.

We sometimes get away with things as riders as well. I've had mistakes in counting tempis etc overlooked and therefore got a better mark than deserved and on the other hand at the Nationals at Stoneleigh I was doing a test with give and retake the reins in canter. 2 judges gave me a 7 the other 4 with the comment 'no give and retake shown'!! It happens and until someone comes up with an infallible machine that can do the judging for us then all we can do is our best, and if you really don't think that's enough then you need to take up show jumping or something else more cut and dried.

This is not a rant at anyone in particular but just an over view. I'm well known for being outspoken about the standard of judges ( one list 5 judge who was sitting in with me the other day said I have a reputation for being 'scary') but also appreciate how hard it is to find the happy balance between encouraging people into it and ensuring they are correctly trained.

Without judges then there would be no competition.

 

[FREESTYLER]

Jlav, scary you!! Naw... dont believe it!!

So, what criteria do you need to be a Judge? Do you have to take exams in biomechanics of the horse? If not, do you think this would not be a good idea?? As we know confirmation of the horse plays a great part in the way that the horse moves, holds itself.. ie. short neck, narrow in the jowl, scapula angle etc.... do you take this into consideration when Judging.. ie. the horse cannot physically give more than what he is giving say for instance in extension? Do you comment that the make-up of the horse will not allow him to go further up the grades? How do you Judge this? Sorry,

I am rambling on but just inquisitive!!

Also how do we differ in our Judging criteria to say Germany/Holland etc... as they appear to mark differently? Do we know how they train their Judges?? What do you think can be changed to at least ensure that we as riders understand what it is we are to be striving for?

Lastly, I appreciate very much Judges time and do most of the time take on board what they comment because I prefer to be given a direction... have I given you enough food for thought??!!!! Ideas??!!

 

[FREESTYLER]

Well, I suppose this just goes to show that Judging can be difficult... I suppose you have to go with the flow or get out!!!


International Dressage Trainers' Club chairman David Hunt opened the 2006 Global Dressage Forum at Academy, Holland by declaring that the health of competition dressage had never been better. Almost 50,000 spectators watched the grand prix special and 60,000 the kür at the summer's World Equestrian Games (WEG).

"We saw unknown combinations [including Mexico's Bernadette Pujals and Vincent] jump in to the top bracket. Three different horses won a class and they were not all trained on the same system. The judges are to be thanked for rewarding the best performances on the day," he said. "But there is one key thing — the welfare of the horse — we must never move away from that."

As well as debates on various training methods for horse and rider, including the use of the controversial "deep and round" technique, the forum hosted a lively session analysing the judging at WEG, where the delegates were invited to score the grand prix specials of Andreas Helgstrand (Blue Hors Matine); Bernadette Pujals (Vincent) and Isabell Werth (Satchmo) with the aid of DVD playback.


The audience pointed out that Vincent's changes were the best of the three horses. The scoring sheets showed that in both the two-times Vincent achieved the same score as the other two horses (four eights and a seven) and in the one-tempis Vincent scored four eights and one nine, compared to Satchmo and Matine who each gained three sevens and two eights.


There was some discussion of Matine's piaffe and passage — which has been widely praised as incredibly expressive. German journalist Birgit Popp said Matine's scores for piaffe and passage surprised her, as the horse's elasticity was not good enough.


"She showed wonderful potential, but it is not exactly what we want to see," said Birgit.


Mariette Withages, judge and dressage committee chair, countered: "When I say spectacular, that doesn't mean ideal or free of tension. If the horse gets a stronger back that will improve elasticity. Andreas even said in the press conference that once back at home he would be concentrating on the basics. You have to bear in mind that she is still very young and was a last-minute substitute for his top ride, Blue Hors Don Schufro."


Stephen Clarke added: "We have to be a bit careful not to talk just about the technical aspects of a performance. We judges appreciated the mental side, too. Matine was the most willing horse and always smiling. It has to be worth something that she so much wants to do the work and was never working against the rider."


Belgian journalist Astrid Appels asked why Debbie MacDonald's ride Brentina scored more than 70% in the grand prix when the mare was "obviously lame".

Stephen Clarke replied: "It's really unfair to say that. The mare had some slight irregularities in the extended trot.

To say she was lame is unfair.

Her weaknesses were scored lower and there were elements of the test that were very high-scoring. But we admit, sometimes we make mistakes."

Astrid went on to ask that if Brentina were only slightly irregular why was she pulled out of the competition after the grand prix.

"The rider felt the mare was uncomfortable in extended trot, so she decided not to take the risk any more," added Stephen

 

[Folara]

[ QUOTE ]

Without judges then there would be no competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree with you and as I said in a previous post:

Im not knocking judges and tbh its not a job I would want to do. Less face it these people give their precious time, for only travel money and can really only please a very few competitors

 

[TURBOBERT]

What an interesting discussion with contributions from very knowledgeable people! I am a trainee listed judge having competed and watched my daughters compete for about 45 years. One daughter competes at Advanced level eventing. I have also judged unaffiliated and RC classes on numerous occasions.

One of things competitors don't always realise is how restricted a judge's view is from C. The entry and exit movements ie down the centre line are a classic example. Obviously we can see if they are straight, rhythmic and lacking resistence but otherwise very little. Provided the halt is square we cannot see if a hind leg is left behind for instance. It always strikes me how at Prelim and Novice level an 8 is relatively simple to obtain and yet how many people do 'handbrake' turns in at A or swing out to turn at C.

Other blind spots are the far corners. It is very difficult to see eg a downward transitions after coming across the diagonal at K or F. It is also difficult to see lengthening in a medium canter down the side of the arena towards A. We can see if the hind legs are too splayed apart and if the horse is not straight or there is serious resistence but not clearly the head carriage or whether there is a true lengthening of the frame and stride.

I suppose the point is that a judge at one point of the arena can only see a narrow picture hence two judges at different locations see different things and therefore their marks can vary to quite a large extent.

If competitors can find the time to write for a judge or maybe judge an unaffiliated or RC competition they would find it very illuminating I am sure.

I have competed for many years. There are weak judges but I find the vast majority are extremely fair. I know my horse's weaknesses and the mark they should achieve in each test I do and I am rarely surprised when I get my sheet.

 

[Partoow]

Judging on the continent is very structured and they tend to not spare the blushes with their comments. They do not make that many comments on the sheet either. i rode for 5yrs as a dutch national and was lucky enough to be involved it their system.
The whole way in which the tests are written and set out in the test book, the explanation to the rider at the begining of each of the levels as to what each level is aiming for in the horse and in the development of the rider.
if you are working at a level then you only compete at that level if you gain points in the level above you move to the next level. So my comments regarding 'ways of going' for a particular level relates to the fact that some combinations are chasing championships at several levels. Surely if you are qualified at a higher level then that should exclude you from the lower level because as the sport dictates you have developed beyond the lower level by progressivly developing the way of going.
as for judges understanding what they see if they are not understanding the basic physiology of the horse and how it affects the way of going then there is a problem with training.
I too judge and after several hours of judging some days you are happy with your performance as a judge and other times you feel you could have done more. I do believe that judges do want to do the best job. Some times we are at the blunt end of poorly written tests that lack a clear purpose in terms of how that test acts a snapshot of that combinations training, we end up almost being forced to judge by using 6's.
We are all part of a fabulous sport and it is a sport based on subjective analysis and is therefore open to variations as everyone's perspective is slightly different.
it is right and good however to question these variations as this is about striving for exellence not perfection.
As for the marking structure judges are frequently not brave enough when marking and do not use fully the scale of marks and this is what we see. I was unlucky enough to be the combination that followed Spirit of Freedom in the novice open champs 2yrs ago. He was simply not given high enough marks for the quality of his work so consequently those following him, as Stephen Clarke pointed out had their marks restricted . This is not how it should be as it does not reward correct work or the outstanding as we are condeming our selves to mediocrity.
One thing that riders can do is come along to the big judges seminars to see the way in which some of their training takes place and also offer their services as writers it is very enlightening .
if you are not happy or do not understand the way inwhich you have been judged you should feel confident to talk to the judges in question , sadly this does not happen and if you do you are considered to be confrontational.. This sport can only progress if we are free to question. To question is not too find fault and does not show we do not appreciate the time and effort that judges put in but they must be open , honest and accountable.

 

[JLav]

Freestyler, glad to see your back under your proper name and I don't think I'm scary either but maybe it's not such a bad thing to have those lower listed judges just a little bit frightened!!!

Your questions are brilliant and would take one hell of a long time to answer. Maybe next time we meet at a show we'll have time to sit and talk, but briefly the criteria to apply to train as a judge is not hard to meet. Ideally you should have at least competed at affiliated level (not necessarily with any sucess tho) and/or you need to be nominated by someone who is either already a judge on list 3 or above or a competitor who competes at medium or above. You then have to do a test that is sent to you through the post by BD and then you may be accepted as a trainee. Once a trainee youi have to do a certain amount of sitting-in, writing and practice judging and attend some training sessions and seminars before you can apply to be tested at novice level to go on list 5. You may end up on list 6 if they feel you haven't reached the acceptable standard or could fail altogether.

Once on the list then only a minimal amount of training to stay there is required, which I personally think should be alot more, and there are various different exams, evaluations etc that you then undergo when you want to try and upgrade.

The subject of biomechanics etc is certainly not covered in any depth, though conformation, natural paces etc would certainly be discussed on the seminars. I think the really serious judges,trainers etc will have a certain level of knowledge about this anyway. We do have to accept certain limitations of type etc but at the end of the day dressage as a sport is about achieving the ideal and we therefore have to judge to that standard. Fabulous paces should never beat a more correctly trained horse but if you have 2 equally well trained horses but one has more natural suppleness, expression and therefore moves better, then that horse should come out on top.

It isn't really the judges place to say to a competitor that their horse will go no further (apart from anything else you just know that when said horse wins it's first Grand Prix the rider is bound to bring it up!!

) We should point out the problems with the training that appear to be limiting the performance and let the rider decide what needs to be done to improve their results.


Things on the continent are quite a bit different. You will have more than one judge, even at novice level, and they sit in together, not at separate points, but also may have more than one of you doing the test at the same time!! Seriously that's true (up to 4 horses in the arena at the same time). I don't know wether their training is better or worse than ours though I do know the Americans have a much stricter criteria to become a trainee. I do think it is too easy here and have always felt that you should have at least trained/competed to the level at which you want to judge in order to have a real appreciation of, not only what is involved, but also what it actually feels like, as a rider, to trot down the centre line and ride at that particular level.

Don't think that's ever likely to become a criteria though as there just aren't enough riders who want to be judges. (Although BD, going from one extreme to the other, has just fast tracked a load of GP riders straight onto List 2 much to most peoples dismay).

There will always be room for improvement and to some degree it is up to us as judges to ensure we keep our knowledge and standards as high as possible and take every opportunity to learn and keep on learning.

Jane.

 

[Halfstep]

partoow and JLav, you make some very interesting points - thank you!

Just quickly - I think that judges do need to be encouraged to use the full range of marks - upper and lower! It is extremely frustrating to get a 7 but with a glowing comment appended; if it was that good, why wasn't it an 8 (or 9....) . Equally, faults which are flagged in the rule book as serious (e.g. a lateral walk) should be sufficiently penalised - and the low mark explained in the comments (especially at low levels). Unfortunately this does not always happen.

Judging has to be transparent, and the only way it will be is if it always follows the rules and the training scale. I know that this is the aspiration, but unfortunately it is not yet always the reality.

Re- horses qualified at lots of levels: I see no problem with horses being qualified at two adjacent levels (e.g. novice and elementary, or elementary and medium). The problem arises when horses are qualified both at advanced medium and elementary or novice - levels for which the criteria of collection is not required. The AM horse is capable of showing much more cadence and balance at lower levels because it has learned to collect, as demanded in the higher level tests. This is unfair on other competitors in the lower tests and probably should be frowned upon.

I do think that judges should not judge in a "vacuum", but should be allowed to confer on marks and come to a consensus. This would eliminate the huge variety in scoring between judges at a championship. Don't know how it would work in practice though.....

x

 

[Thistle]

Daughter events a pony at BE Novice level. We find that a female judge will give her an OK mark but male judges tend to mark her right down. They seem to somehow feel that a pony should not be there.

 

[FREESTYLER]

An exerpt from the Global dressage formum which I find very enlightening and maybe could help Judges in their decision making?
Again, I really appreciate the time Judges take out of their days to give us BUT surely it is in our interest to educate our Judges to the best ability? NOT TO SAY SOME ARE NOT!!!

but it would then give Judges a criteria to follow??? What do you think??

Hilary Clayton talked about research into the science of dressage. This research has implications
for judging. Judges should have knowledge of movements that happen too fast for the eye to see.
Researchers can measure:
• Tempo and rhythm
• Distances
• Angles joints
Laws Motion
1. Forces cause movement.
2. Amount force determines direction and speed
3. For every action there is an opposite = reaction.
Ground Reaction Force (GRF) divides into
1. Vertical (defies gravity and gives lift to stride)
2. Longitudinal (concerned with acceleration and de-acceleration)
3. Transverse (sideways movement)
Vertical – as the body passes over the foot the vertical action comes into force.
Horizontal- as the foots hits the ground it generates de-acceleration then a forward propulsive
force
Working Trot
Hind legs cause less vertical force than front legs.
Collected Trot
Vertical force greater than horizontal, providing longer propulsion.
Front
Vertical force higher in collected horse, front legs pushing against ground to elevate withers.
Therefore the horse transfers weight to the hind legs.
What muscles are important?
Circle of muscles are important but focussing on role muscles in front legs – sling muscles that
suspend forehand between them.
Serratus Ventralis attaches to inside scapula and fans out to the vertebrae in the neck and to the
ribs. The Serratus Ventralis runs from the inside scapula to the ribs. When it contracts it lifts the
rib cage and point of withers. Tone in the Serratus Ventralis raises withers and changes the contours
of the withers. Thus horse in correct work looks taller.
Tempo and Rhythm (easy to measure)
Tempo is the rate of repetition of strides. Rhythm is the timing of footfalls within a stride.

 

[FREESTYLER]

I also agree that you can say be competing at Novice/Elementary or Elementary/medium but to be doing Novice/elementary/medium/advance medium all in one hit!! This does not seem correct, purely because in the training scales it takes roughly 2 years for the basics ie. prelim/Novice ;rhythmn,contact, balance and further in the training to build muscle (which does take time and correct work) to allow the horse to carry himself, have power for impulsion, straightness and the ultimate Collection.

 

[SaraG]

There are a number of things to take into account when looking at the marks from multiple judges.

Firstly location - the judge at E will see different things from a judge at C. Judges located at H/M will also have a slightly different viewpoint.

Then, when looking at the number of marks difference, also take into account the number of movements in a test and how many marks are doubled up. 26 marks over a 14 movement test is a lot. 26 marks over a 30 movement test is less than a mark per movement.