Dressage musings...contact and hands

Weezy

Weezy

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Again, a disclaimer first. I am NOT criticising riders!

OK, so I am a jump rider. I have never had a vested interest in competing in dressage although I understand the importance of flatwork and the necessity to make a horse work through from behind and into the hand. I also like to teach my horses the fun stuff, lateral work is very important and changes are necessary when jumping.

Something really hit home last night, and that is the strength of hand contact. It was very visible with Laura and Alf, she rides him with a firm hand and certainly has to give him a decent hand reminder at times. Nothing wrong as these reminders were sharp, to the point and not ongoing.

Now, most amateur riders struggle with *contact*. It is a subject that comes up on here again and again. I was thinking about this this morning, whilst glamourously mucking out, and I wonder whether the reason for this is that riders are told over and over that they must maintain a *soft* contact, have a *soft* hand, be *soft*. I think this results in amateur riders being too easy on their horses and even if they are correctly getting a horse working from behind they are not catching them in a substantial enough hand to create the picture most desire. The correct words should be *accepting but firm* together with *consistent* and I think *soft* should be used more for elbows and shoulders, as should elastic possibly.

We all know that correctness comes from behind and thus over the back and into the hand, but are people struggling because the hand is actually not firm enough to catch the power? I am sure Carl Hester's soft hand is probably a lot, lot firmer than an amateur's definition of soft, and therein lies the problem IMO.

And do amateur dressage riders try TOO hard with their seat and legs to create the power from behind? We have all seen them kick-kicking and puffing their way around the dressage arena, (set aside those sawing hands please!). If you get a horse to go forwards and then harness the power in the hand and simply them push it on and forwards, then that has to be correct, the knowledge is there for most, but are people now too hung up on IT HAS TO COME FROM BEHIND and are too gentle in front to achieve their goal? Thus the kick-kicking, puff-puffing, doing-all-the-work image.

It is VERY obvious that to ride a horse with power one needs a firm and consistent hand. Are amateurs all a little too soft and forgiving and would they achieve more being firmer and a little more strict with their horses? We all LOVE that light feeling, but does it actually achieve anything or is it a get-out for the horse? Surely that should be when you push for more into the hand rather than sitting thinking *oh this is nice*?

Just musings really, and sure, I am looking at GP horses and comparing them to low grade dressage horses, but I do think that the message has become rather sketchy and muddled up for amateur dressage riders who struggle with *feel*, which sadly not everyone is born with. People keep telling them to be soft and accepting, when actually they need to be firmer and stop doing quite so much. Do a little more of SOMETHING and less of nothing maybe?
 
definately IMHO.

the amount of power that must come though and in to the hand far exceeds what most people expect, no pulling down, or hanging, but definately there.

iv popped a few clients on Bruce to give them a feel for this and they've been stunned at how much they can feel in the contact though the harder movements, again not arm ache territory but definately forward in to both hands.

wishy washy contact is the enemy of true connection.
 
Yes, yes, yes and yes.

You are absolutely spot on.

There is this myth that somehow by activating the hind end the horse will miraculously come to the bit and be soft and over the back. But it doesn't work that way. Contact or connection is initiated by the rider and the horse reaches for the bit, accepts it, and then comes soft. It is a two way street. You can't have the horse on the bit without contact.

the biggest fault that I see among amateur riders is reins too long or intermittent, unclear contact with the horse's mouth. This can be because of a genuine mistake, or because some people are scared of taking a contact and instead run the horse onto the forehand while waiting for the mythical connection to appear!
 
I agree to a large extent - I came back to riding after a break of ten years (so quite rusty myself) having been used to riding very fit, very forward horses where a connection could be relatively easily achieved and power regulation and softness were really the main issues, and was amazed at how backward-thinking many leisure horses seem to be. They are used to riders who nag away with their leg and don't really notice when they don't get a reaction. In that situation using any hand at all puts the handbrake on instantly. Now every time I get on board I check the reaction to the leg and if it isn't sufficient I work on that - aiming to get a forward reaction simply from taking the lower leg *off* - before I think about the hand.
 
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very interesting point

i think you are right though, i had always been told soft soft soft but in reality only when i started DR training with specific DR trainer did anyone actually make me realise that all that power i created was running out threw my "soft" hands. The event rider who i got the large majority of my training from did explain this with regard to jumping as in the horse should feel "a bit strong" but this is more of a way of explaining his point and not meaning a horse towing on its forehand and this is maybe where it becomes difficult for the amateur to differentiatate/understand?? i am rotten at explaining things but the jist of my ramblings is yes i think you are spot on.
 
You have certainly hit the nail on the head, where I am concerned.
I used to (many years ago), ride to medium, and had several horses working to that level. I never seemed to have any problem with *contact*, all were working into a consistent but firm contact.

However, having had several years out and moving around the country with several trainers, I have now lost the *feel*. I am so conscious of not hurting their mouths that my contact is too soft and hence not truely 100% between hand and leg, despite looking "pretty". I think this is fine at the lower level, but as you add in the power the whole picture would fall apart.

I had a lesson with a GP dressage rider a while back ad she was getting me to work the horse into a firmer contact. The horse definately went better, but I felt I had been too harsh. I think for me personally it is the balance between firm contact and elasticity of elbows and shoulders that I seem to struggle with now, where as previously it was more natural and not something I thought about.

I think that as you move up the levels and the horse learns to take his weight behind and power forwards you will naturally have more weight in the hand and this would become the norm? I think for some amateurs if you start teaching firmer contact on a younger less established horse you may loose the power and also teach harsher handed riders without the necessary elasticity to go with it. Interesting one.
 
I think it is because "soft" is not correctly understood - I take soft to mean giving at the right moment. Rewarding the contact that you want, not having a vice like grip constantly and not flapping around on the end of washing lines.....
 
Agree 100%; it's something I've been musing over lately, too. Also think that perhaps part of the problem is that 1 horse amatuers who spend all their time on that one horse perhaps get to like it too much? They develop a bond with that horse, then end up being too 'nice' to them when it comes to riding.
 
Yes, I'm with you 99% except for this:

Weezy said:
It is VERY obvious that to ride a horse with power one needs a firm and consistent hand.
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I think that's a pretty big generalisation. Not all horses need the contact to be firm (if that means strong/heavy), it can be consistent and developed to be LIGHT.
I've seen footage of Nuno Oliviera doing canter pirouettes with his reins hanging in loops, the proverbial 'washing lines' - he was holding the horse with his seat and his legs and his position/poise/shoulders, whatever you want to call it.
Of course, no way of knowing whether he took years to lighten the contact to that stage with that horse. I guess so...

I think you maybe have to go through the firmness and consistency to get to the lightness part... but, self-carriage is NOT helped-carriage, and the best riders can feel the difference (I'm not for a moment suggesting that Alf wasn't in perfect self-carriage, but a lesser rider taking that sort of contact on a lesser horse probably wouldn't get the same results.)

Someone said to me ages ago that getting a horse 'on the bit' (ugh, but we all know what I mean) is rather like drawing a bow (to shoot an arrow) - if you don't ask for anything at all, you won't get anything. Not justifying pulling as such, but saying that you have to ask to get something.

BUT "the inside hand acts as a handbrake on the inside hindleg", so LIGHT (or at least lighter) with the inside hand is always the aim.

As for riders learning the contact... hmm. I'd rather they have a light contact until they've developed an independent seat, otherwise they're using the reins to stay on. Once they've got the independent seat and good control over their hands (e.g. hands not going up and down as they do rising trot, pet hate of mine, urgh) then they're capable of a consistent not-horse-punishing contact, and THEN degrees/weight of contact can be experimented with.
But i taught someone ages ago who'd been taught by someone who'd won Instructor of the Year, and he was adamant that a strong contact was better for the horse than a wishy-washy one - which I disagree hugely with, we are talking about a metal bit being pulled against a horse's jawbone by a rider weighing 7-15 stone, after all.
 
A lot I agree with BUT most riders are not able to follow a horses movement and that is where the problems start. The horse must give to you initially then you must give to them and be able to ask them to go into self carriage. If you just hold the contact and do not have independent hands then the horse will suffer and show you.
All too often a horse does not move off the leg so a rider uses the whip then catches the horse in the mouth.
So , get a good seat , then ask your horse to learn to go forward and stay with your horse. Teach them to soften to the contact laterally and work on getting them to stretch over their back and work through, keep them forward and work on being able to raise and lower the neck when you require. Then as your horse starts to improve in balance and physical ability you can start to take more contact and power BUT only if you have the ability to maintain the indepentent seat and hands.
Hope that makes sense. The skill is in being as one with your horse as your horse becomes more powerful:D
 
I too thought the same when we went to Windsor to watch the Europeans and it did make me realise that I wasn't being horrid by taking a stronger contact as instructed! I think that as nutkin said that us one horse amateurs think we are being kind whereas we need to actually get a grip and make the horse work properly. Speaking for myself that is.
 
I agree but what I will add is that you cannot achieve a consistent and soft contact until the horse is in self carriage and I think that is where alot of us fall down and where schoolmaster lessons are invaluable... I think it is soo hard to achieve until you have felt it if that makes sense?
 
Just rushing out, but kerilli, no, I don't mean strong/heavy at all, which to me also means bracing.

Nuno is an amazing horseman and whilst I am sure everyone aspires to be able to ride like him the chances are slim to none for most of us!

And just addressing carthorse too, not talking about real novice riders here, but those who do already have balance enough to ride and stay in the plate, but struggle to, oh go on then, get the horse on the bit ;) ;) ;) It seems an obsession!
 
I too am a jump rider, but I've had a mix of lessons from SJ's and pure dressage instructors. I had a lesson last night with a new SJ instructor, he's the first one to have noticed that my arms have two different levels of contact, my left is soft and my right is hard........everyone else told me it was the horse who was that way but last night by the time we where finished my right hand right through my shoulder was locked and dead and I could bearly hold the rein anymore (guess who needs the physio!!) he is also the only one to really explain the hand to leg theory...I only thought I understood what this ment, but throughout all my very expensive lessons no one thought to tell me I wasn't doing it correctly....I now do understand, and what a difference it makes.

What a difference it makes to have someone that is willing to say hold on here a minute do you understand what I mean etc.... there is such a misunderstanding over terms and how they are explained to the amateur, it's almost like it doesn't matter sometimes sure what are they going to do anyway sort of attitude!! The unfortunate thing in SJ is that a lot of the amateur riders are jumping round 1.10m on Grade A or B horses that have been there and done it all so if the horse is good enough the riders abilities don't really come into in. So the rest of us unfortunates that are trying to improve and maximise the potential of both our home produced horses and our own abilities are just brushed as side as never has beens and never will be's!!

"RANT OVER"

I presume that dressage is the same for the amateurs!!
 
Pasha said:
I agree but what I will add is that you cannot achieve a consistent and soft contact until the horse is in self carriage and I think that is where alot of us fall down and where schoolmaster lessons are invaluable... I think it is soo hard to achieve until you have felt it if that makes sense?
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I disagree with this actually, IF you have a good enough trainer who really knows what they're looking for, and has oodles of patience, I think it can be conveyed by the trainer &b not by a schoolmaster.
The first time I sat on a true dr schoolmaster (ex GP horse) was after I'd trained my first homebred to Elem/Med level, and it was such a RELIEF to find that he felt exactly the same in the contact as she did and that I didn't have to take a really strong contact - which I hate... surely the idea of dressage is that one gradually teaches the horse to go from a lighter, refined and more imperceptible aid? Surely the better self-carriage the horse learns, the less the rider will have to do, in a way, just as the very best sjers and the very best event riders can sit there looking as if they're doing very little, with no kicking and hauling.
(Of course, I know this tale does argue that it was a bit like the blind leading the blind, I'd obv been feeling my way along, but at least with excellent patient horse-centric instruction!)
 
Totally agree! I think it is very hard to get it just right especially for those who don't understand........I mean I've only just got it (and still no where near perfect) as I've only been 'doing' flatwork/dressage for a year now.

And I think it is definitely because the wrong words are used or it's not explained correctly.
 
Weezy, I promise you it is not just the real novices that cannot be as one with a horse. How many can really sit well enough to stay with a horse not just through the contact but also through the seat and not interupt the movement of the horses back. I watched very closely when Carl Hester rode in a Pro Am , his ability to encourage a horse to lift its back and work through was amazing.If the seat is good enough and the rider can move the hands and contact with the horses movement then the horse becomes more confident and will really work . Most riders are soft when it should be their horses that are soft but you must be able to reward and build confidence in the horse or they become tense and all is lost. Unfortunately some judges do not recognise tension enough. We must all strive to get our horses in self carriage by being in self carriage ourselves
 
Chermar said:
What a difference it makes to have someone that is willing to say hold on here a minute do you understand what I mean etc....

I presume that dressage is the same for the amateurs!!
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I think it probably is - often I think it's the case that the quality of instruction leaves a lot to be desired for those riders who genuinely don't know what a good-quality contact feels like. It can be taught on any horse, but it will involve a lot of time in walk to get from a position of complete ignorance (and this doesn't just include beginners) and I wonder whether RIs feel that clients aren't willing to spend the time here, or whether clients actively ask to do more exciting things, or whether many instructors (often the really good riders) sometimes don't get that people need to have these things broken right down for them - how long to have the reins? How to ask the horse to soften his jaw? When to give? How much? When to take back? How to maintain the same contact when the horse is unsteady on the other end? What else to do while you're doing all those things? There is also the shocking possibility that many RIs don't have enough confidence in their understanding to convey these things to their pupils. I think it's perfectly possible to have a consistent contact on almost any horse, but it will involve the rider taking perhaps *all* of the responsibility for it until the horse is more settled in the mouth.
 
i would say so too
ive been told off for having far too little down the rein and the horse had nothing to work into.
hence any power i created wasnt used properly and i ended up trying to create more power, getting tense and losing balance of the horse and myself.......
having felt the difference in the horse over the back and the shoulder start to come up, just by taking an actual contact, its amazing.
 
Fascinating. Slightly off topic but I watched R having a lesson on Frodo yesterday and the instructor was reminding her about the scales of training (? think that's what he said).
He said Frodo's rhythm is much improved, suppleness is getting better (but worse on the left than the right) and when she's schooling, she now needs to work on maintaining the contact. At one point she was working on long and low at walk and she said but if I increase the contact, he goes overbent. He said - it doesn't matter, his neck will strengthen up and it will get better. She was also struggling on and off with keeping the contact even (bit in the centre of his mouth) which was affecting his straightness and balance.

I am at the very early stages of learning about dressage and then only as a spectator so forgive me if I misunderstood and am talking rubbish.
 
kerilli said:
I disagree with this actually, IF you have a good enough trainer who really knows what they're looking for, and has oodles of patience, I think it can be conveyed by the trainer &b not by a schoolmaster.
The first time I sat on a true dr schoolmaster (ex GP horse) was after I'd trained my first homebred to Elem/Med level, and it was such a RELIEF to find that he felt exactly the same in the contact as she did and that I didn't have to take a really strong contact - which I hate... surely the idea of dressage is that one gradually teaches the horse to go from a lighter, refined and more imperceptible aid? Surely the better self-carriage the horse learns, the less the rider will have to do, in a way, just as the very best sjers and the very best event riders can sit there looking as if they're doing very little, with no kicking and hauling.
(Of course, I know this tale does argue that it was a bit like the blind leading the blind, I'd obv been feeling my way along, but at least with excellent patient horse-centric instruction!)
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Yes of course - I didn't say you had to have a schoolmaster lesson, I said they were invaluable for teaching feel which I think they are, not that that is the only way to achieve feel x
 
It is difficult though when a DR instructor tells you to take up more contact but you are stuck on a backward thinking lazy beastie of a RS pony who will slam the brakes on or just drop all forwardness as soon as you take up the contact. I know you need to go leg into hand but if you are squeezing/kicking so hard you end up in agony it is a bit much.

One other problem I have with a lot of instructors is being constantly told what the horse should be doing (which I know) but not how to persuade it to (the issue).
 
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Katt said:
Wasn't there an old saying that a "correct" contact should feel like a pound of sugar????
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hmm, well, it's better than 10 pounds of sugar... but then I've heard "just the weight of the rein in your hand" too...
Depends on the horse, the rider, the level of training, how many oats he had last night (?!) etc etc I guess.

Chermar, I know what you mean about the instruction. I sometimes feel that there's this big Dressage Mystique, that there's certain things that just don't trickle down to amateurs. It shouldn't be like that, for the sake of the horses if nothing else...
Some of the most useful things I've ever found out about dressage came from trainers at the very top.
 
''BUT "the inside hand acts as a handbrake on the inside hindleg", so LIGHT (or at least lighter) with the inside hand is always the aim.''

This^^^^ - i see so many people riding around hanging off the inside rein and they wonder why they dont have the connection and get marked down for it. You have to ''allow'' with the inside rein so the hind leg can step through and under - but by allow i dont mean go along with washing line reins, just soften with the inside hand slightly. Ive always been taught to reward the horse with the inside hand aswell, as if you reward with the outside hand you risk the loss of straightness especially in a not so well schooled horse. I find it amazing when i get on other peoples horses (something ive done quite a bit of recently) and non of them react to the inside leg, i've then had people get on Bloss and although she is a bit like a mini elephant at the moment (baby seems to be growing at the rate of knots) - as soon as you put your inside leg on she bends round it and obliges nicey.

Im not quite sure where im going with that - i waffled slightly, sorry! I think what im trying to say is that a firm (not yanking on the mouth) contact and inside leg and a giving inside hand are so important.
 
kerilli said:
Chermar, I know what you mean about the instruction. I sometimes feel that there's this big Dressage Mystique, that there's certain things that just don't trickle down to amateurs. It shouldn't be like that, for the sake of the horses if nothing else...
Some of the most useful things I've ever found out about dressage came from trainers at the very top.
Click to expand...

Yes! The Dressage Secrets! I must acknowledge my wonderful instructor, now too far away :(, who was the perfect combination - an II who had trained on the continent and with David Pincus, many moons ago, and yet spent her freelance career teaching muppets like me - she was able to convey those mysterious things that I'd still be struggling for now if I hadn't met her. It made me an effective, if not a pretty, rider, and gave me feel. 90% of it's gone now, of course - never take time off!!
 
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