Dressage - off the leg - suggestions please

SpottedCat

SpottedCat

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Right, in a bid to get my wretchedly lazy horse off the leg and forwards on the flat I have been doing the following:

1. Doing everything except jumping in my dresage saddle, including all my fast work. He thinks thi is hilarious and tries to buck me off, but speed etc is the same as in the jump saddle.

2. Riding with a schooling whip, giving him one chance to go off my leg and then tapping him with it to get him forwards. Making sure I don't nag, he gets one chance then a tap, and if he goes to slow down/break again one chance and a tap.

The result is he is now beautifully forwards, has gears within every pace and a great medium trot. We've been at it a week. So tonight I started with schooling whip and then put it down as obviously BE you can't use one. Back to wretched lazy animal who ignores me. So now what? Any suggestions as to what I can do please? He goes beautifully when I carry a whip, and is a bloody donkey when I don't and I have run out of ideas!
 
I have a horse who can be lazy if he isn't in the mood. I have a pair of longer length spurs and I only have to put them on....not use them and he is pinging off my leg beautifully! I don't wear them all the time but occasionally he needs a short sharp reminder. I am not in favour of tap tapping awasy all the time with a whip as you say they know when you no longer have it. Don't you just hate these clever little buggers?
 
Forgot to say - have 30mm spurs. He ignores those too, today I wore them and didn't touch him with them until I dropped the whip hoping to surprise him into keeping the forwards momentum up - no chance! Clearly I am not about to boot him with long spurs!
 
Do like a billion transitions in one curcuit of the ring. Spurs might also be a good idea.

Transitions sound basic but always works with this UBER lazy TB at our local RS. Lots of canter/trot/canter/walk/halt/trot/canter/trot/canter and he is like "what? what now? OKAY im listening!"

x
 
Gallop him forward. Say "go" and if he doesn't go forward immediately "box" him with your legs and make him GO!!! Gallop down the arena. Then bring him back and ask again. If he doesn't go forward, box and gallop. He'll soon get the idea. Just make sure that when you make him go forward you allow him to really go.
 
you're doing better than me, my wretchedly lazy horse doesn't move off the leg, whip or spurs, even the very first time we used them he couldn't have cared less
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I have this problem with H - she gets more reactive the looser she gets (her stiffness is through her shoulders - once I've unblocked her and straightened her she's happy to go forwards - maybe this could be something that you could try?) My other suggestion would be to try a different spur - H goes off my leg so much quicker with a rowled spur (sp? LOL!) Maybe worth a try?
Kate x
 
Archie is very backwards from my leg. As you know (i think!) i go to Emile Faurie for lessons now too. We spend a lot of time getting him sharper and more forwards from my leg. With Emile i never use the whip to get him forwards, the whip is only used once he is forwards to get him underneath more.

So what we do is i trot around and with my leg off, as soon as Archie goes to slow down i turn my toes out and pony club kick really hard (toes out so he gets jabbed by my spurs) We keep doing this everytime he slows down until he goes forwards off his own accord. I do this in all paces with him and it really works. Then once he is forwards and accepting my leg properly then i use the stick to get him under more.

I hope that makes sense?
 
Halfstep I do this - I don't give a sod what he's doing with his head, I just want instant forwards. He will do this fine. As soon as you pick up a contact, he dies on you. Seriously, I'm not holding him in and being restrictive with my hands - at least no instructor has ever mentioned it and I had a lesson with a BHSI the other week. He's such a lazy git on the flat when he has to connect through from behind. It is a pain as when he os forwards he has really quite good paces and a powerful medium trot, I just cannot get it out of him without a schooling whip. This is pure laziness BTW as he is fine SJ/XC, and it's not a tack issue as I get the same reaction in the jump saddle (only I have less steering as it makes me unbalanced when I ride long in it!)
 
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I have this problem with H - she gets more reactive the looser she gets (her stiffness is through her shoulders - once I've unblocked her and straightened her she's happy to go forwards - maybe this could be something that you could try?) My other suggestion would be to try a different spur - H goes off my leg so much quicker with a rowled spur (sp? LOL!) Maybe worth a try?
Kate x

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Kate - can't use rowels BE, so even if it works, puts me in the same position as I am in with the whip...
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Thanks Tempi - I do this but I think I don't do it enough perhaps? Maybe it is the only answer. Can I ask, do you have Archie round when you do this, or do you ignore the front end? Only asking as it is when I ask him to soften that I lose the reaction. The trouble is either I can't PC kick hard enough, or he is a stubborn idle sod, because realistically the change I get is minimal!
 
A friend of mine had a huge horse and she was tiny. He would not go forward for her with a schooling whip in each hand and spurs! Her instructor tied a plastic bag to the end of her whip and that made him move....for a while. Problem was she used it when I was in the school on my very forward going tb.
 
I will actually die if I tie a plastic bag to the end of my schooling whip. I am 5 foot on a 16.3 novice eventing fit TBx who until recently could not even deal with velcro on gloves being undone - I don't WANT to die, I want him going off my leg
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Archie goes naturally round so i dont have to worry about the front end!! (sorry!) - Personally tho i would try and keep him soft whilst doing it if you can as he needs to be over his back and into a soft outline to be able to go forwards without tension.

Archie does minimal effort aswell, half the time he just grunts when i kick him
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I have to be really quite hard with him (and i hate being mean to him!) he just takes the p*ss otherwise
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Archie goes naturally round so i dont have to worry about the front end!! (sorry!) - Personally tho i would try and keep him soft whilst doing it if you can as he needs to be over his back and into a soft outline to be able to go forwards without tension.

Archie does minimal effort aswell, half the time he just grunts when i kick him
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I have to be really quite hard with him (and i hate being mean to him!) he just takes the p*ss otherwise
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Oh bog off with your bloody warmbloods!
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Ok, so my TB is built for speed and hates being made to do flatwork, especially now we are out of Prelim and floating around with his nose tucked in and his backside doing sweet FA is not good enough!
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Right, I need to be meaner perhaps! Any other suggestions gratefully received....
 
I wouldn't worry about the outline. You need forward without question first. Once he learns that go means go, then you can think about the roundness.

Walk him on a contact. Activate the walk with your legs. Ride a walk halt transition. Hold him in the halt. Then ask him to walk on with your legs. If nothing happens, take your legs off and KICK. Back it up with voice aids. Really truly KICK and make him GALLOP. Not just canter - gallop. Bring him back and repeat until he gets it. It doesn't usually take more than two times until the horse starts to understand that you mean business. Then repeat with trot walk trot transitions, and if you don't get a crisp upwards transition KICK and gallop. Bring back, and ask again.

The aim is for you only to have to ask once, correctly. So you ask, and if he doesn't answer you KICK and gallop. Remember to reward him if he gets it right with lots of pats and praise. And make sure that you are not nagging him with your legs during the work, keep your leg quiet unless you are using it to ask the horse to go forward.
 
Cheers Halfstep, will try that, lazy little sod. Funny how halt to walk, walk to trot etc is all such hard work, but halt to full speed with just a gentle squeeze of the leg is achievable in 3 strides when one is in the start box and hears 5,4,3,2,1,GO, isn't it?!
 
I agree with Tempi.......use the spurs more strongly. He'll soon get the idea. Well done for getting him going wellwith the schooling whip thouh. It proves that the technique of one warning then a tap works with him. Now all you need do is transer it from the whip to the spurs.
 
I would just like to add I have ridden SC horse in massive sharp jumping spurs and he was a lazy sod and felt a reaction was not necessary apart from the occassional paddy. I am 5'9 and it made no odds!
 
I could have cheerfully killed him tonight LEC - beautiful when I had the schooling whip, really soft, relaxed, forwards with a medium trot like I have never felt him do before. Put the whip down and....back to how he was when you rode him. Little sod.

My other plan is to try and subtly let the schooling whip slide out of my hand so he thinks I still have it, rather than put it down/pick it up again.
 
Oh what a nightmare!
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Didn't realise you couldn't use a rowl!
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I'd go with the pony-club games technique - and see if loosening his shoulders/straightening him out helps him?
I do feel for you - I get so frustrated when H is in a go-slow mode!
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Kate x
 
I think you need to first establish what you mean by "going forward". It shouldnt mean to go whizzing round the school, but that the back end engages and the hock moves to the muzzle.

I would be looking to go back to basics. First I would have the horse moving with a soft jaw and being able to flex and bend easily both ways. Then I would get more impulsion by doing lots of transitions, extending and collecting the gaits. That is when I would expect him to be very responsive.

When I bought my anglo he had been ridden in the normal "kick and pull style" and was very dead to the leg. Now he goes off my seat, so for example if I want a canter transition I put more weight on my inside seat bone. It took six months of schooling (by me and my much better instructor) to get him to this level, and sometimes he is a bit lazy in the school especially if he is bored of the exercise, so then I go back to basics and get him on the aids and doing lots of transitions.

Again, you should not be concerned with what the head is doing but you do need a soft and relaxed jaw otherwise he will only lean. Once you have impulsion and he is working correctly from behind then he will carry himself naturally.
 
See CB that all *sounds* great, but explain to me how you ignore the head end and yet get a soft and relaxed jaw?! You can't do it IMO, especially not on an eventer who is used to being asked to gallop on a soft contact, head out in front and to take you to a fence.

In halt and walk I can get jaw relaxation and slide his crest to either side as you do with true flexion. This doesn't help him go off my leg in any way. If he's not off the leg and responsive to it, how do I get him to extend within a gait?
 
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Oh what a nightmare!
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Didn't realise you couldn't use a rowl!
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I'd go with the pony-club games technique - and see if loosening his shoulders/straightening him out helps him?
I do feel for you - I get so frustrated when H is in a go-slow mode!
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Kate x

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I know! It is a total pain. I am not convinced it is totally a flexion/softness/straightness thing as he is straight and I can do shoulder fore etc fine. I know he needs to be more supple, but part of the problem is he doesn't truly let go until he is moving forwards - once he is then he is light in the hand, pushed from behind and is lovely and easy to manouver round the school. But getting him there is damn near impossible without a whip. I use someone on the ground with a lunge whip on occasion, which works fine, but again is not a long-term solution!
 
LOL! now that would look funny in your test - someone flicking a lunge whip as you trot past!!!
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We've found out that H goes up a gear whenever my instructor claps, so if we do freestyle we'll be choosing happy -clappy music! PMSL!!!
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Been reading the other posts and I have to say - Go with boss's comments about geting it forward and forget what it's doing with it's head - this is the method we use - we also use the kick on when she slows down - so big kick GO... no slowing down because as soon as she does I send her forwards again with another kick - if she gets sluggish we kick for what we term a jiggy-joggy walk - to engage the hocks - it's frustrating it really is - but we manage to get her forwards, so theres' hope because she is a right pain! LOL!!!
Kate x
 
i have a horse who is really lazy and slow, he is 17hh and really hard to hold together, not the typical perfect outline warmblood! i work on loads of transitions like the first one i will use the whip at the same time as the leg to sort of make him jump, then the next one gets easier and quicker etc, i also work on lots of flexion, shoulder in and 10m circles to bring his hind more underneath him, this seems to produce a more powerful trot, i was so hung up on trying to get speed but i have now come to realise its the impulsion i need and when he works from behind he really powers forward. i dont know if this will help.
 
I agree - that on some horses it takes longer than others. For example my youngster hasnt really known anything else, so he is lovely and supple in the mouth as soon as I get on. He also goes off the seat (although previous owners could not get him to do anything without spurs and a whip).

The Anglo was damaged so sometimes it can take me 40 mins to get him soft in the mouth - this is done by flexing him in walk, using seat and legs to extend and collect the walk. I walk him in circles, do laterals, also do counter flexes until he lowers the neck and is soft all the while I use my seat and alternate legs to get him stepping under. My instructor can do it in about 10 mins. But after this work he has a lot more impulsion and then when I ask for trot I only need to sit back slightly. Previously I was using a lot of leg initially to get there but the constant use of transitions has made him sharper. As someone else mentioned, I used a schooling whip if I need a bit more and I dont want to bang about with legs.

I extend in a gait using my seat - for example in walk I imagine my seat bones moving in an up and down manner and to extend I imagine them moving in a long back and forth manner. In trot I almost clench my seat and hold the horse between my leg and seat asking for impulsion with leg and not allowing forward movement with seat and then when I want extension I sit back put leg further forward and release the seat and allow him forward. Does that make sense? Sorry it probably doesnt - I am so rubbish at explaining things. Someone else probably has a better explanation/suggestion.

What I meant about ignoring the head end is not to worry if he is "on the bit" or not but just as long as he is soft and relaxed in the jaw - he would come into the desired "rounded" position in his own natural self carriage once the back end is moving. As for moving, I meant that he is working with true impulsion - very often this requires you to work the horse in slowest pace possible to lighten the forehand and have him almost sitting on his back end.
 
I have similar problems with my mare - she's very crabby when she first comes out and really backs off my leg and the bridle. She's also learned now to do a flying change when I use the whip, so I've had to completely change tactics.

I've taken off my spurs, and give her 5 minutes walking round to loosen off. Then I pop up my stirrups a couple of holes, take up a half seat, and really gallop her round the arena. Every single time she slows down she gets a boot in the ribs. Once she's starting to take me and take hold of the reins of her own accord I gradually take up the contact and settle her into a more balanced canter, before I start schooling in earnest.

Every single time she drops behind the contact or my leg she gets a boot in her ribs. Once we've had the initial canter on a loosish contact, I work hard on keeping her flexed and with a contact in front. Otherwise all the energy I've built up with my legs is getting lost out of the front door - my RI keeps telling me to think of her like a tube of toothpaste, and you need to keep the lid on to stop it spurting everywhere
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She only started this new regime on Monday, so it's early days, but the last two schooling sessions have been fantastic in comparison to previous ones, so I'm hopeful
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Mine's a CB x Welsh, so her problem is definitely her 'can't do, might hurt, can't be bothered' attitude, so your TBx might catch on a bit quicker
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Goddy is exactly the same SC, doing lateral work etc is impossible until he is going forward, and getting him going forward is a nightmare!! I use rowelled spurs at home (smooth ones!!) and occasionally 2 schooling whips as advised by LG!! It is working, and he is now getting to the point where he is working forward willingly without having to use whip/spurs etc
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Also, do alot of schooling out on hacks, when he is more forward so it is easier to work on lateral work etc anyway which then helps with his natural engagement and rubs off on our schooling
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IS he lazy at competitions?
 
CB - he won't relax through the jaw until he is going forwards - just leans on your hands, bit of a throwback to time spent in draw reins I think as he is pretty dead in the mouth at the best of times. Once he relaxs then he naturally rounds, but it's a vicious circle to a certain extent - you can't ignore what he's doing with his head because unless he's relaxed through the jaw he runs rather than powers if that makes sense?

Kat - bizarrely as I know no-one has ever even thought about beating him, he is terribly whip shy. It is only recently I've been able to use a schooling whip at all, and I think he might have a nervous breakdown if I used two! As it is I can't start without one and then pick it up, I have to get on with it. That's why I often use someone on the ground with a lunge whip, he deals with that better.

I do school a bit on hacks, but he doesn't make it easy!

At comps he is like he is at home, only slightly less inclined to argue. He doesn't get lit up at comps, never has. He is also perfectly capable of warming up superbly then dying in the arena, to the point where I am sorely tempted to take a whip into the arena and get myself E just to prove a point to him! Trouble is that is one VERY expensive lesson, so if I can avoid doing that I'd rather try!

This morning he was actually slightly better as he threatened to nap at one point when I was getting him off my right rein and I smacked him with the schooling whip rather than just tapping him (hand off the rein job). That seemed to shock him rather and from that point on he shut up a bit and moved forwards better - I let the whip slide out of my hand rather than obviously putting it down and he was pretty good after that. So perhaps a tap is not enough. Booting him, spurs or no spurs, is a total waste of time, he ignores it. We've been through the whole ask once nicely then boot in the ribs game, it has precisely no effect! I have also swapped 1 of his cups of equi jewel for a cup of instant response cubes, in the hope that they might do what they say on the tin!
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