Dressage - off the leg - suggestions please

i had one which was very backward thinking and she had to be warmed up in a fast canter before even thinking about trying to walk or trot, this got her thinking forward and then i could come back to walk and she would work beautifully but until then it was stirrups up, half seat and blast round the arena. Then lots of transitions and no breaks beause she would shut down again.

Its trial and error I guess. There is nothing worse than having to push and kick and shunt a horse along and its just going round in circles the more you push and kick the more they shut down. I would wake him up and then leave him alone and expect him to carry the pace and if he slowed down boot boot or short sharp smack shock him into going forward so you are not niggling at him constantly that is his reward. It is not your responsibility to keep the rythm thats his job and I would remind him of that severley when he forgets then you can concentrate on someting else !

I was always taught to give a kick/tap once they are going well/are relaxed to ask for a little more, rather than asking for more before they are ready and being met with resistance, if that makes sense ?!!
 
Can you take him out to some unaffiliated dressage comps, and use the whip in the arena to really send him forward?
It might mean a messy test, but might get it into his head that competitions don't mean he can evade you. It'll save you getting E at BE then.
 
Ah ok, not so good about being the same at comps!!! At least mine wakes up at competitions
tongue.gif
Just frustrating at home. He sounds a bit of a difficult one. TBH, I would carry on schooling at home with a whip, as eventually the message will get though it is easier tow work forwards and that should show through in his work in general?!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Can you take him out to some unaffiliated dressage comps, and use the whip in the arena to really send him forward?
It might mean a messy test, but might get it into his head that competitions don't mean he can evade you. It'll save you getting E at BE then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Been there, done it - means he does a lovely test but back to same old when the whip is gone. He is cunning!! He does unaff dressage once a month throughout the winter and whenever I can fit it in in the summer. I just wondered whether BE he realises that because it is on grass I never have my whip on grass (he is less sure on a surface as I might have it!) so feels 'safer' about ignoring me! I am honestly not sure they think that much though, hence not bothering to E myself yet!!
 
Kat he is a pain in the arse and bone idle to boot! Lucky for him he is such a XC machine and loves to jump!! It is only on the flat he is so lazy though, which has been commented on by trainers...hmmm...me thinks he just thinks it is all a lot of hard work for little reward! I never have to kick SJ or XC to get him forwards, lazy toad.
 
SC- my suggestion for a lazy toad (as i have one aswell) is a combination of things

1 - do have to have lunging in him first as not to calm him, but to give me 20 min head start so i'm not so knacked so quickly

2- get on and straight away shoulder fore..... and lots of fleixsion right and left so can't set onto fore hand

3- keep him guess about transitions and just lots of them one which i finds help is- trot down to couple of walk stride and then ask for TROT straight away and if not given repeat with huge boot..... but allowing to go forward.... repeat until message received
wink.gif


4- I try my hardest not to ride in spurs until comp.....but with little legs you may not get away with this... but if you do PC BOOTS allow to go foreward.... than ask again... should work

5-have you looked at giving him more go go..... in food term (or would that upset jumping phases) as i find as soon as grass comes through mine gets even lazier............ so out comes oats...

6- how's your position??????? as i have hip issue and i know i can block my horse's movement ..... so i have to work really hard on this - hand hips and shoulders, as my git will be lazier if he feels i'm not in correct position etc.... Does your's go better in sitting trot???? as with little legs you can wrap around more.... and have more consistant contact????????
 
[ QUOTE ]
Been there, done it - means he does a lovely test but back to same old when the whip is gone. He is cunning!! He does unaff dressage once a month throughout the winter and whenever I can fit it in in the summer. I just wondered whether BE he realises that because it is on grass I never have my whip on grass (he is less sure on a surface as I might have it!) so feels 'safer' about ignoring me! I am honestly not sure they think that much though, hence not bothering to E myself yet!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, he's a tricky one.
Are there any PC or RC venues near you that do their dressage on grass? Almost all ours are, so mine finds it a treat to actually work on a surface. She's still very slow though, hence the need to occasionally wallop her during a test and treating it as a schooling exercise
blush.gif
 
i would give up riding with the whip tbh, you can't use one in BE so don't use one at all, then you have no option but to galvanise him into action somehow with what you can use in the test! i'd have smaller spurs and give him a proper sharp jab with them every time he's idle, hopefully you won't have to do it more than twice (!), and use you voice too for now. the pony club kick forward to make him realise you really really DO mean it is always good too. you just have to be absolutely black/white about the whole 'go forward' thing.
i knew someone with a 4* horse which did exactly the same thing... very very frustrating.
 
[ QUOTE ]
i would give up riding with the whip tbh, you can't use one in BE so don't use one at all, then you have no option but to galvanise him into action somehow with what you can use in the test! i'd have smaller spurs and give him a proper sharp jab with them every time he's idle, hopefully you won't have to do it more than twice (!), and use you voice too for now. the pony club kick forward to make him realise you really really DO mean it is always good too. you just have to be absolutely black/white about the whole 'go forward' thing.
i knew someone with a 4* horse which did exactly the same thing... very very frustrating.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my rational too K, but I promise I'm not being feeble, he really does ignore PC kicks and jabs with the spur - twice would be nice....but I used to ride in small sharp ones for just this reason and it made bog all difference. Now I have big ones as at least I can keep my leg stiller! He is such an idle horse on the flat, but at least someone with a 'proper' horse has had the same problem!

I am thinking of riding with a SJ whip so that every time he thinks backwards and drops off the leg I can wallop him, as he does respect the stick! It's not lack of muscle/ability either, it's just he finds it easier to tootle round with his nose tucked in and his arse in another county so he ignores me. I cannot use the 'I'm 5 foot and 8.5 stone and he's 16.3' argument as plenty of small women ride big horses, so there must be a way to motivate him. He is very food orientated so maybe I could rig up some kind of headgear for him which dangles food just in front of his nose? I taught him to load using bribery and now he trots up the ramp given half a chance
grin.gif
 
Just to add - thank you everyone for your replies and suggestions. I am aware I sound like one of those annoying people who asks for advice then doesn't take it, but i promise this is not because I don't appreciate it. It's because I have tried everything I would normally do and nothing has worked - lots of the suggestions are things I'd do and suggest to others, but I have never had a horse this bone idle and dead to the leg before who is quite prepared to ignore me for as long as it takes. Hence lots of 'tried that' replies! I just thought by pooling minds we might be able to come up with something novel to try, or there might be someone out there who tried something unconventional which worked. So I'm open to all suggestions.
 
It's a fascinating thread for me anyway, it's nice to know I'm not alone out there with a horse with a psychological aversion to moving!

One more thing that hasn't been mentioned, and that I haven't actually tried, so I don't want shooting down for suggesting it, as it's a bit harsh... but... my RI told me when she was training they used a corner of the school, ideally with a wall in front so the horse wasn't tempted to jump over, and basically someone on the ground with a lunge whip would crack away until the horse was really begging to be allowed to go forward. They'd come flying out of the corner and forwardness was never really any issue after that. The rider could then just sit there and attempt to maintain it to get the horse used to going forward in the outline without the rider using spurs, whip or leg.
Quite extreme though, and I've not been tempted to try it just yet as I value my health too much!
 
[ QUOTE ]
have you had a lunging lesson -with you riding??????

this can give you pointers on where to go

[/ QUOTE ]

All the time - used to have them weekly for my position. Thing is on a circle with someone in the middle he moves as they *could* have a whip!!
 
SC, have you tried schooling him on hacks, not in the school at all? pick a usual cantering spot to work on extended trot, for example. or go and work him near the xc or near some gallops! seriously, something to make him think FORWARD is FUN, and not just endless circles in the arena... nothing against your riding/schooling, just some horses are fine with it, others find it deadly boring and pointless. i think i'd avoid schooling in the arena for 2 weeks if pos, just go for hacks where you ask him lots of questions all the time, and see if that helps. a psychological thing rather than a physical thing, i hope that makes sense.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's a fascinating thread for me anyway, it's nice to know I'm not alone out there with a horse with a psychological aversion to moving!

One more thing that hasn't been mentioned, and that I haven't actually tried, so I don't want shooting down for suggesting it, as it's a bit harsh... but... my RI told me when she was training they used a corner of the school, ideally with a wall in front so the horse wasn't tempted to jump over, and basically someone on the ground with a lunge whip would crack away until the horse was really begging to be allowed to go forward. They'd come flying out of the corner and forwardness was never really any issue after that. The rider could then just sit there and attempt to maintain it to get the horse used to going forward in the outline without the rider using spurs, whip or leg.
Quite extreme though, and I've not been tempted to try it just yet as I value my health too much!

[/ QUOTE ]

I like my life and am not brave enough to try that! Plus, I don't want to terrify him into getting off my leg - I don't mind using a stick on him, but to give him no escape like that seems a bit unfair - what I'm trying to achieve is the thought of me being scary than the prospect of ignoring me, whilst always giving him 'forwards' as the easy option. Like I say though, all suggestions welcome so thankyou!
 
All the time - used to have them weekly for my position. Thing is on a circle with someone in the middle he moves as they *could* have a whip!!
------------

ooooooooooo what a pain...... too many brains cells.......

What does your trainer suggest????????
 
[ QUOTE ]
SC, have you tried schooling him on hacks, not in the school at all? pick a usual cantering spot to work on extended trot, for example. or go and work him near the xc or near some gallops! seriously, something to make him think FORWARD is FUN, and not just endless circles in the arena... nothing against your riding/schooling, just some horses are fine with it, others find it deadly boring and pointless. i think i'd avoid schooling in the arena for 2 weeks if pos, just go for hacks where you ask him lots of questions all the time, and see if that helps. a psychological thing rather than a physical thing, i hope that makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do school on grass round the fields when the summer tracks are open - can't on the winter tracks as that's where we do fast work and I struggle to hold him in a pelham along them!!

It doesn't make the blindest bit of difference!! I love the fact that he is easy to control in the dressage, but a bit more enthusiasm wouldn't go amiss!
 
[ QUOTE ]
All the time - used to have them weekly for my position. Thing is on a circle with someone in the middle he moves as they *could* have a whip!!
------------

ooooooooooo what a pain...... too many brains cells.......

What does your trainer suggest????????

[/ QUOTE ]

New trainer has only seen him once - chased him with a schooling whip!! Seeing him again at end of May so we'll see. Other trainer was chatting to last night - she is pretty stumped too and suggested the SJ whip idea. I have upped energy feed to include instant response cubes.
 
What I used to do with Olympic was to get my instructor to ride him for 30mins and that would last about 2 weeks before my riding had corrupted him back to being lazy.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What I used to do with Olympic was to get my instructor to ride him for 30mins and that would last about 2 weeks before my riding had corrupted him back to being lazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL maybe it is me! It probably is. Trouble is I can't get someone else to do the dressage and then I do the SJ and XC, otherwise that'd be fine!
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I like my life and am not brave enough to try that! Plus, I don't want to terrify him into getting off my leg - I don't mind using a stick on him, but to give him no escape like that seems a bit unfair - what I'm trying to achieve is the thought of me being scary than the prospect of ignoring me, whilst always giving him 'forwards' as the easy option. Like I say though, all suggestions welcome so thankyou!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL
grin.gif
I didn't really expect you to try it
grin.gif
I find it scary enough when my RI stands in the corner and waves the lunge whip at her
blush.gif
 
Alex would ride him for me at home for 30 mins - getting him going forwards properly and then at a show or at home with me riding for about 2 weeks he really went forwards.

When he went to Lee's for 2 weeks it took about a year for it to wear off.
 
Quote:
All the time - used to have them weekly for my position. Thing is on a circle with someone in the middle he moves as they *could* have a whip!!
------------

ooooooooooo what a pain...... too many brains cells.......

What does your trainer suggest????????


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New trainer has only seen him once - chased him with a schooling whip!! Seeing him again at end of May so we'll see. Other trainer was chatting to last night - she is pretty stumped too and suggested the SJ whip idea. I have upped energy feed to include instant response cubes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PMSL............... can't really use the chase idea in test
wink.gif
(even tho would be fun
grin.gif
) but defo interested to see how it pans out tho....

mine get response intsant plus oats...... but i've also found that cos he's a greedy horse, i do have to limit his grass in summer
 
QR: I think Kerilli has hit the nail on the head - he uses as much energy as he likes, when he likes and this has to stop. So I will try schooling him on hacks on grass on our fields in a double bridle. Then I can use the snaffle until he tries to disappear into the middle distance and then pick up the curb and make him concentrate. It is certainly worth a try. Not that I have a double bridle, but that is another issue!!
 
I am certain on my yard someone must have a double I can try! Surely?! It's a dressage yard, there must be tonnes of them kicking about?!
 
Ok masses of replies so if someone had already posted this I apologise.

Have you tried boxing him? This isn't pony club kicks it's using the flat side of both calves on him at the same time, you take the leg away from the saddle a little then wham with both calves , it makes a good noise to.

Eventually you get to the point where just taking your leg off means the same thing to the horse and they scoot forwards.

It's a good idea to try this on a 20m circle at trot as the outline is maintained by the circle and you don't fiddle or worry about the outline when you box , all you want is forwards forwards forwards, you do walk to trot transitions lots of them and if the doesn't go you then box instantly.

They usually pick it up pretty quickly but again you do need reminder sessions every now and then. Better people than me can decribe it in more detail.

Also Carl Hester kind of does something similar in a lot of his demo's.
 
SC - Does it make a difference if you school around a fence? If he becomes hard work then pop over it and enjoy the forwardness that 'hopefully' follows. Reward this energy when you get it.
OR
I have seen this work with nappy/lazy horse. Someone on ground with lunge whip with large bright flappy plastic bag on the end. Rider applies leg aid - no response - rider applies leg aid again and helper flicks him up the bottom with the bag - horse shoots forward - cue praise. Don't worry about front end. Theory is they will move off your leg first time of asking to avoid the bag. Of course you can't have helper for your test
tongue.gif
but hopefully he will remedy his ways and you won't need to repeat this more than a couple of times at home....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top