Dressage People - please can you tell me why ......

sorry, i dont thik FinnMcoul put it nicely at all, i think it was just plain rude.....

theres a reason top riders use artificial surfaces, which would be because they give a consistant footing when horses are being asked to give 100%. think how easy it is for YOU to twist and ankle or knee running flat out over bad ground?

i would like to add that my horses go out 7 hours every single day come rain shine or snow, so no sweeping generalisations please. i also hack off road to give them that variety of surfaces but i think this-

"I have read Pippa Funnell's autobiography and she said that if you warm up on the crapiest piece of ground you can find, that if you get it right there, just think how right you will get it on a reasonably level surface?"

is totally illogical, why the heck would i seek to ride my horse on crap ground.....because i want tendon injuries/stone bruises/twisted joints?!
 
I'm a low level RC rider who competed at the heady heights of prelim only, and never managed to score above 60%. Yet I would never ride my horse on poor ground if I could help it- he was pretty much worthless, yet to me he was too priceless to allow him to make his feet sore on unlevel and rutted ground. It hurts my legs and feet walking over it, and my feet have the ability to bend around the surface more than solid hooves.

So if I'd had the option, yes, I would have ALWAYS schooled/ worked on a nice surface. Why not? In the same vein I never jumped on hard ground, cantered/ trotted on rutty ground and hated it when he hooned round the field (he was out for most of the day every day). He lasted to the age of 27, having spent 5 years with me competing (he was a TB). In that time he was unsound for all of a week in total.
 
atm i only have grass to train on in my fields and 2bh it is slopy not not really uneven but grass is too long atm (winter grazing)
Out of choice i wouldn't train her on grass because i generally hate it. there are no boundaries to work off for leg yield or shoulder in etc. its so hard riding circles on slopes, generally makes riding flatwork a lot harder.
However in some ways it has improved Dancers way of going as it has made me do things (i.e. transition into canter without relying on corners and boundaries, also stops me always circling to get her going nicely) which i avoided in the school to improve her.
However, is till CANNOT WAIT until we get a menage put in in march/april next year YAY!!! :)
I dont generally have a issue with competing Dancer on dressage on grass but she is only at prelim and 17 years old. my 3 year old im hoping to get to high levels in dressage will probably not compete on grass 2bh. without studs anyway.
 
Aregona - you are so right that if you are competing at a level or in a discipline that has grass arenas then you should sometimes ride on grass. It is best to do this when the ground is good if possible for several reasons. Unless you have a huge area to work in you will not have any grass left if it is wet and as long as you have reasonable hacking the horse can get used to mud then. Soft ground doesn't damage a horse unless it is very sticky. It is hard ground that bothers me more especially if it is bare. Concussion injuries are not always apparent until they are quite established. You get away with hard ground occasionally but it is best not to use up your "lives". Of course, horses that are kept in enclosed arenas and in their and their riders comfort zone are not going to be as worldly as horses that have to cope with life so a party in an open field is bound to appeal to their sense of humour/prey on their nerves so they will behave like they've had too many blue smarties! In these situations keeping the horse busy and on the move so his brain is occupied is normally the best option so leaving the boots of for working in means you don't have to stop and lose the thread.
 
I have to admit to being a bit :confused: by some of the comments on this thread.

My horses event, so inevitably they have to do some work on grass. I'm suitably fussy about what I do and where I do it, including at competitions. I do prefer to work on a surface where possible but also have a jumping paddock at home (with much more room to manoeuvre than in the school!).

Surely though some of the dressage riders do more than riding in a school on a super surface? An example in point - PrincessSparkle posted the other day about hacking CS out and him having a fun time :D in some mud or plough (can't remember which) - isn't there as much chance of damage/injury, etc, from doing this as some sensible schooling on suitable grass?

(PrincessSparkle - apologies for selecting your recent post as an example - not a direct criticism honestly - I hope you'll take in the spirit intended? :o)
 
no probs, i dont mind :)

i should explain that i was walking only, and the plough bit was only 3 strips, approx 4 foot wide, that we walked over, i wouldnt go any faster than a walk unless i was sure of the ground (if i canter, i generally walk the stretch first, then go back and canter, so im sure of it), and i do try and avoid deep or sticky mud at all costs. IMO thats lower risk than trotting and cantering on slippy or hard ground?

not getting at you MM-just explaining :)
 
I was going to mention what do those of you who don't ride/compete on grass do with regards to hacking? Or indeed, do you hunt?

I'd take grass over energy sapping deep arenas...
 
i wouldnt ride on a too deep arena either though!

i dont hunt-horse would smear me over the road the instant it caught sight of the hounds/horses!!!!!

i hack, but walk only on roads, some steady trot or canter on grass if the ground is good, but going for a canter out hacking is VERY different to the super engaged,round, canter i use in the school. i do trot and canter up and down small gradients, but again only if ground is good. i will walk on very hard ground, but if the going is suprisingly deep or rutted i turn round and go another way-why risk it, once a tenson goes.......
 
I was a little shocked when I came to Germany and discovered that a lot of warm-up arenas are on grass, but the horses have adapted well, and this year both of them have warmed up on grass at least once and went on to do really well in the test.

Proof (aka excuse for gratuitous piccies :D ):

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In the picture with Frodo, the person on the right (riding the chestnut) is actually a top international rider, so I figured that if warming up on grass is good enough for her horses, it's good enough for mine too :D

Having said that, grass (as long as it's not too hard) is definitely better than too deep. I would *never* compete on a surface which I deem too deep - I have actually withdrawn in the past for this very reason. Just not worth taking the risk IMO.

Re. the importance of varying -within reason- surface, slope, terrain etc: very very true, yard is in a very flat area and my trainer actually had artificial hills built so that the horses (all of them dressage horses) can safely do some hill work:

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However, hunting would be a huge no-no for me.
 
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Lol PS, they are super useful and 100% safe, and I can't imagine them being expensive (or difficult) to build?

There are three in total of varying heights, and they are so so useful, and versatile!

Frodo tackling the steep one:

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We have "fake hills" too, they are super. And you can go up the steep bits too.

Agree about too deep arenas, I've withdrawn too because of them and there is one venue I'll never go to again due to their appalling deep warmup.

Come on folks - we are all trying to do our best for our horses.

I do think that pure dressage, being such a perfectionist and (to some degree) subjective sport, does lead to a certain paranoia about horses' way of going and this can at times come across as "prissiness". But it probably isn't. You want your horse to be 100% regular in its movements at all times, and an uneven surface isn't conducive to this. That's probably the sum of it.
 
Halfstep said:
Come on folks - we are all trying to do our best for our horses.

I do think that pure dressage, being such a perfectionist and (to some degree) subjective sport, does lead to a certain paranoia about horses' way of going and this can at times come across as "prissiness". But it probably isn't. You want your horse to be 100% regular in its movements at all times, and an uneven surface isn't conducive to this. That's probably the sum of it.
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Agree with this 100% :D
 
Remember that Carl does a demo at Badminton every year with top horses (Valegro, Utopia, etc) so he obviously doesn't have a problem with riding on GOOD grass. I agree that a deep arena can do damage especially to young horses but the worst is false patches so the horse is sometimes on top of the ground and then hits a deep bit. Soft turf shouldn't hurt a horse in the same way unless too sticky. Like I said before it is hard turf that is a problem, more so if rough. Equally, as PS says, ticking along in a soft, easy way is totally different to working with a lot of impulsion.
 
FB, artificial hills, just love it. the legend went that many years ago, Eddy Stibbe told his father, Daddy Stibbe (his real name, btw) that he couldn't get his event horses fit enough because he didn't have a hill to gallop them up. Daddy built Eddy a hill, in the Netherlands, before Eddy moved to the U.K. A proper gallop hill. I boggle at the thought of how much earthmoving they had to do.
Not going to comment on the 'dressaging on grass' part - I event, so, no choice! Done 1 event test on a surface in my entire life! lots of BD on grass though, as well as on surfaces. with studs, it's doable. without studs, or on rock hard going, no chance.
 
I was an endurance rider for many years, did Golden Horseshoe on Exmoor plus countless other 'hard' rides so i can hardly be called precious, but there is definately something to be said for schooling on a decent surface.

I was warming up for a dressage test on my TB. It was unaffilated combined training but at an affiliated venue.

The warm up was on grass. She had bandages on (not that makes a massive difference on what happened).

I asked for canter on the right rein, which she happily obliged but unfortunately slipped outwards on her left fore. At that moment I was called into my test. I could not for the life of me get left canter lead. She wasn't lame but I knew she wasn't right.

Ended up having her scanned and she had torn her superficial flexor tendon. Without a doubt would not have happened on a surface.

Unless the grass is absolutely perfect, I can see why dressage peeps don't like it!
 
The terrible thing about doing dressage on grass/non perfect surface is that it shows up if you can't ride your horse in balance/rhythm. How on earth did we survive without geltrack?
 
I prefer to do a test on grass in the summer. The warm up is always more spacious and my lazy horse becomes a little bit more forward and easier to ride. ;) I also like that there is no area fence to "lean" on for the horse.
I'm lucky in that I have a lot of lovely field edges to ride on round my yard and my horse is used to going at all paces on all types of ground.
 
I think it's better for horses to be worked on a variety of surfaces and often school my dressage WB in a field at home. My problem is I find it much more fun to tear round the field instead! I canter on hacks etc so I'm not precious about riding on grass or scared of losing control!

When it comes to competing however I wouldn't enter a show on grass as if it was too wet/hard I'll withdraw anyway. The thought of 10m circles on bad going is a big no no. I want to show the horse off at it's best, and a proper arena surface provides optimum conditions compared to some churned up, uneven field. All horses have a fair chance as the surface remains constant throughout the day. And for BD entry fees I expect a decent surface!
 
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dressagecrazy said:
I have competed on grass, i actually did a warm up class at Badminton dressage champs & won the class the indoor class didnt go well however:eek:.
I love being able to work in on fields it's liberating lol.
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I've also competed at the Badminton Horse Feed Dressage Champs and warmed up by Hunstman's Close. One year the park was flooded and so the Young Horse Class competitors had to warm up by trotting up and down the lane by the indoor school....this class attracts some very nice ££££ young horses due to the prize money.

My dressage horse was previously an eventer, so is fully used to working on grass. Although these days I find he gets very excited if I use the grass arena as he's used to being on a surface and thinks he's eventing again!
I now only work on medium trot out hacking - on grass going up an incline - I have access to 600 acres of off road hacking with varying inclines. This has improved his medium trot as we don't have to negotiate corners and rebalance, it's made him become more confident in medium trot and lift more through the shoulders and power from behind.
I am obviously mindful of ground conditions, plus he isn't particularly intrepid when it comes to any kind of mud or water (hence him being a dressage horse and not an eventer!)
 
Orv said:
I now only work on medium trot out hacking - on grass going up an incline QUOTE]

I do this too! We have some slopes (and massive hills too!) which I always try and get mine to go up in medium trot! I watched the Team Fredricks series and I know they all work on their medium trot that way.
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Well, with Merlin I hated riding on a surface and loved riding on grass.

I avoided surfaces like the plague - only rode on them if I had too!

Our field is on a slope, our dressage arena is uphill and the jump are on the hill - and I never studded this summer apart from one time when I was having a dr lesson where we were focusing on medium canter on a circle.

At our area showjumping, it was in a big, open field, and apparantly the jumps were unlevel according to the pure jumpers :o they complained of dips before and after fences, slight hills etc. Funny how the jumpers all went to pot that day and the eventers won? I won it outright on my field trained horse ;)

I can see why dr riders like surface - they need the confidence of a stable surface to perform the higher level movements and extended gaits.
But I think a horse should be trained on all grounds as balance training.

Maybe up to medium level there should be Tests on grass as well?
 
Absolutely agree with this; if they werent so protected they'd probably be tougher in the first place. By letting horses work on 'real' ground it teaches their bodies physically and mentally-by that I dont mean hammering them on the awful hard ground we can get these days. That's when arenas come into their own as useful
 
janey said:
Orv said:
I now only work on medium trot out hacking - on grass going up an incline QUOTE]

I do this too! We have some slopes (and massive hills too!) which I always try and get mine to go up in medium trot! I watched the Team Fredricks series and I know they all work on their medium trot that way.
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If people think doing what we do damages our dressage horses in anyway, they should check out endurance riders!
I took part in an endurance ride 2 weeks ago (yes on my dressage horse :-o) and I have never seen people trot so fast on roads other than gypsy trotters. If I did that with my horse he would be lame (I rarely trot on roads) but it goes to show, that horses legs can become acustomed to different surfaces.
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Orv said:
janey said:
If I did that with my horse he would be lame (I rarely trot on roads) but it goes to show, that horses legs can become accustomed to different surfaces.
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I don't trot on concrete either (I feel another debate happening lol) and definitely planning a pleasure type ride to get mine out a bit more in a non dressage environment. I can tell Otto we are hunting, he'll never know the difference as he's never been and never will! :)
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Why does everyone feel the need to use studs when working on grass?
All SJing and about 50 to 60% of DR here is on grass and people don't use stud except at the higher levels. I would say our conditions on average are probably worse than yours - ie rock solid (as it hasn't rained in 6mnths) or mud (becasue we have had the last 6mnths rain in 2 days).
I've never used stud on Beau and he has only slipped once (dumping me out the side door when he tried to do a 90deg sliding handbrake turn (his suggestion not mine!) in a round of SJs

Following on from FB gratiouitous (spell?) pics here one of Beau competing quite happily on grass ;)
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I understand about DR riders not wanting to ride on rough grass/ground that might jar but don't understand the complaints about undulating or sloping arenas - isn't the point of collection to develop a balanced horse that can safely carry you over any thing?

Don't mean to 'attack' the DR riders here, but was just pondering.

I school Beau mainly in a large 80x100m sand arena that has a 1m drop from left to right, becasue of this the sand depth varies, and the 'short' sides are on hill. I expect him to be able to hold his pace/balance round the arena and produce the same work when I go out and compete on grass. In fact the only time I have doen DR on a surface was at an ODE!
 
what a shiny horse! :D

Was just thinking - how can you expect to compete on grass if you dont train on grass?

Maybe thats why most venues are on surfaces as that is what most people train on and dont have the luxury of a field good enough to ride on?

Just a thought :)
 
Shiny is something he does well, I just wish he could put as much effort into something else like 1-time changes! :p

A well schooled and balanced horse should not be affected by what he is working on (with the obvious exceptions of knee deep slop and concrete like clay). Even if they are only schooled in an arena they are probably hacked/turned out on grass and so should be able to cope.
Their schooling and therefore balance/collection should work in their favour - well thats my (fairly worthless) opinion :)

Possibly be summed up in the phrase 'its a horse for heavens sake!' ;) :p
 
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