Dressage saddle: narrow twist, wide horse

[CanteringCarrot]

The matter of narrow twist saddles on wider horses has popped up here and there on various threads. Its sort of become my dilemma.

I've had a Fairfax Gareth for a few years now but my horse has changed shape and the balance is just off, even with adjustments. He has a tall, wide, and long wither now, with an uphill build. So a fair height difference between his withers and back. He also has a shorter back. The Gareth wasn't my dream saddle, but tolerable and served us well.

I've sat in a number of saddles recently to include Albion, Ideal, Schumacher, Kieffer, Passier, Sommer/Iberosattel, Equipe and Erreplus.

The best one for me is the Erreplus, but for the horse, I'm not sure. The best one for him is the Iberosattel/Sommer with their wide comfort panels. But all of these saddles, with the exception of the Erreplus and Equipe (which would never work for this horse) are so freak'n wide. Who fits in these? Maybe those with long slender flat thigh legs. It was like sitting on on an upside down U or a square. Idk.

But how bad is it, really, to have a more narrow twist/saddle for the rider when the horse goes in a MW/W tree and prefers/needs a lot of wither and spine space?

At this rate I think we will both retire before I find a new dressage saddle.

Then, what is up with these tiny slender panels? Horse seems to like the widest and longest panel possible for weight distribution.

So what does one do? Sell the horse because our needs conflict ?‍

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I completely feel you on this. My horse has a huge, long, high and narrow wither with some spots lacking muscle behind them, whilst being higher at the withers than at the croup, which makes it really hard to fit a saddle to. He is 19hh with a reasonable back so I thought great, can get a decent sized saddle for my decently sized ar*e but nope, saddle fitter put him in a 17inch saddle so we could sit it 1inch further back than you would a normal saddle to completely avoid the withers (photo below, please excuse the pads, these have been removed as he has muscle up into the saddle). Would moving the saddle back make it easier to fit one to yours?

I dread to think what will happen when I need another saddle, as he is currently in a medium but as his topline and front end build I imagine we will need a new one.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Not a whole lot of real estate go work with..

 

[McFluff]

I totally feel your pain. I find a narrow twist better for me, previous horse was wide. My saddler did a couple of things, not sure if any of these would help.
1. Got a M2M ideal (Josophine mono flap) - to get best fit for horse (H&C tree, wide panels, short panels for her back length etc.), but to minimise bulk for me
2. Use mono leathers - again reduces bulk
3. Put flocking under the stirrup bars - which felt counter intuitive to me, but it helped
It was always a bit of a compromise though. I also went to a physio and got some exercises to help me keep my pelvis, hips, glutes in best order. This also helped.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think I have some photos from above somewhere, but the wither area (hard to see in that photo) is decently filled out, so no hollows exactly. It's tall, long, and wide, so needs room. Over the last 6 months or so, his whole front end just grew upward, or something. But he should be done growing since he will be 9 this year.

 

[Scotsbadboy]

Removed, not worth the fight.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I totally feel your pain. I find a narrow twist better for me, previous horse was wide. My saddler did a couple of things, not sure if any of these would help.
1. Got a M2M ideal (Josophine mono flap) - to get best fit for horse (H&C tree, wide panels, short panels for her back length etc.), but to minimise bulk for me
2. Use mono leathers - again reduces bulk
3. Put flocking under the stirrup bars - which felt counter intuitive to me, but it helped
It was always a bit of a compromise though. I also went to a physio and got some exercises to help me keep my pelvis, hips, glutes in best order. This also helped.

1. Yes, I've mostly ridden this horse in monoflaps to reduce as much bulk as possible. Unfortunately, no Ideal fitters within a 4 to 5 hour radius now.

2. Yes, I use those too.

3. I'm not sure about that, if it would be comfortable for the horse in this case ? but I just don't know. Interesting.

I am very diligent about my stretch work, especially as we've gone up the levels. Part of it is just my conformation too. But it is definitely important!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Removed, not worth the fight.

Please, do share. I'm open to whatever, even if you're going to give advice I won't like.

 

[oldie48]

Did you try the Albion K2? Mine has a narrow twist and although Rose is now nearer to wide than med/wide I find it comfortable as does everyone who has sat in it. I'm a bit special needs when it comes to saddles as I'm long hip to knee and tight in my hip flexors but Rose is, I think, pretty straightforward. It's also relatively cheap as saddles go and adjustable.

 

[McFluff]

Scotsbadboy - not a fight at all. Narrow twist is not a narrow saddle. You can have a wider saddle with a narrow twist for the rider. It is more to do with the anatomy of the rider and where their seatbones are. If the seat of the saddle is too wide for the rider, it puts their seatbones in the wrong place and feels uncomfortable (for me, I move to a chair position to get comfy). It is really hard to describe - and I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. I could ride my mare bareback happily, it was the seat in the saddle that we needed to go M2M to solve.
For my gelding, I've been lucky, as he's in a monoflap bliss saddle that fits both of us perfectly.
CanteringCarrot - if you can get a female saddle fitter they will maybe best understand your needs. Maybe one of the good ones on here (SBloom?) could help you remotely.
To my eyes, your boys back looks really good.

 

[Scotsbadboy]

Thanks McFluff and apologies for removing my comment CanteringCarrot. I ride in a Balance saddle and so find 'traditional' fitting saddles a hard one to swallow. I think i was reacting (in my head) to your post purely from an advert i saw last night selling a M/W dressage saddle .... This saddle wouldnt have fit on the back of my medium sized collie dog, let alone a medium wide horses back! Apologies for hijacking your thread. Good luck with finding a suitable saddle

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Did you try the Albion K2? Mine has a narrow twist and although Rose is now nearer to wide than med/wide I find it comfortable as does everyone who has sat in it. I'm a bit special needs when it comes to saddles as I'm long hip to knee and tight in my hip flexors but Rose is, I think, pretty straightforward. It's also relatively cheap as saddles go and adjustable.

I tried the Fabrento, but was told the typical panel and tree shape of the K2 wouldn't work. So I didn't get my hands on one.

Scotsbadboy - not a fight at all. Narrow twist is not a narrow saddle. You can have a wider saddle with a narrow twist for the rider. It is more to do with the anatomy of the rider and where their seatbones are. If the seat of the saddle is too wide for the rider, it puts their seatbones in the wrong place and feels uncomfortable (for me, I move to a chair position to get comfy). It is really hard to describe - and I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. I could ride my mare bareback happily, it was the seat in the saddle that we needed to go M2M to solve.
For my gelding, I've been lucky, as he's in a monoflap bliss saddle that fits both of us perfectly.
CanteringCarrot - if you can get a female saddle fitter they will maybe best understand your needs. Maybe one of the good ones on here (SBloom?) could help you remotely.
To my eyes, your boys back looks really good.

I'm working with a few fitters. A female fitter came yesterday, but I only liked one model of the Erreplus out of the 6 or so saddles I tried. Exhausted her inventory. Has a few more coming in within the next week or so though.

Another fitter came to look at the Albion Fabrento but it didn't work. She can come back in 2 weeks with a few saddles from a small local brand I've not heard of.

The Iberosattel rep only sells those and he will be back this weekend with more.

My favorite fitter is in France now and has shifted his focus to trekking. So doesn't have the inventory.

I'm trying to sit in as many as possible. One fitter said the smaller twist is good for the rider but not usually what the horse needs and shrugged. Ok...so do I just force myself? The horse is sensitive so if I'm not balanced or comfortable, he knows it.

Have a call into a big place with a very extensive inventory and good reputation. They can send a fitter in 3 to 4 weeks.

I don't like to have so many hands in the pot, but both knowledge and inventory is scarce locally. Since I ordered a custom saddle that arrived and fit neither myself or the horse, I'm also weary and want to be certain with my purchase.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Thanks McFluff and apologies for removing my comment CanteringCarrot. I ride in a Balance saddle and so find 'traditional' fitting saddles a hard one to swallow. I think i was reacting (in my head) to your post purely from an advert i saw last night selling a M/W dressage saddle .... This saddle wouldnt have fit on the back of my medium sized collie dog, let alone a medium wide horses back! Apologies for hijacking your thread. Good luck with finding a suitable saddle

I know what you're saying. I often see saddles and wonder what horse even fits in there. He goes in the wide gullet plate with the Fairfax, but has been in the Medium Wide before. The last fitter set it up so less wool in the front, more in the back, due to his shape, which worked for awhile.

Anyway, I'm always open to different methods (well, not treeless as I cannot compete in one) but it's also limited to what is available to me. Thanks for explaining.

 

[milliepops]

is there a Wow fitter over there? I can't get on with most albions or ideals and prefer a narrow twist. although Wows look like a wide twist I don't find that they ride like that because of the way the seat is shaped, plus they can shave or add to the padding if you need it. there are so many panel and headplate options and profiles it might give you what you need?

 

[Cowpony]

I have 2 saddles (brand won't help with yours as mine is a flat-backed native type) - the GP was ordered from new and therefore has a narrow twist to suit my small frame and short legs. The dressage saddle was bought second hand and has a wider twist, which I can just about cope with. I ride in the GP occasionally, to check how it's fitting my horse (sharer uses it most of the time) and every time I love the extra comfort and the feeling of being able to wrap my legs around my horse! Both saddles fit her, so you should be able to get a narrow twist on a wide saddle, to fit you too. Good luck!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

is there a Wow fitter over there? I can't get on with most albions or ideals and prefer a narrow twist. although Wows look like a wide twist I don't find that they ride like that because of the way the seat is shaped, plus they can shave or add to the padding if you need it. there are so many panel and headplate options and profiles it might give you what you need?

Ok so...there is one about 40 min away but her husband is a farrier (also a WOW fitter) that severely messed up my horse's hooves. So...I was polite ending things with him, but now it's weird and not sure they would want to help me...nor would I trust them. Could see who the next furthest is.

#itscomplicated ?

 

[milliepops]

ah awkward. might be worth pursuing though, i used to adjust my own once I got a set up that suited.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

ah awkward. might be worth pursuing though, i used to adjust my own once I got a set up that suited.

Yeah, thought that would be nice and I'd be capable of slight tweaks here and there. No idea how horse feels about air panels. No idea how I feel about them either, but they do have a lot of options. I've gone back and forth about trying one for awhile. If I can find someone with a good reputation to come out, I'll consider it.

 

[quizzie]

I have a similar shaped horse with long high wither, broad vertebral column, and I have narrow hips....currently using a fairfax Gareth! ...previously used a Barnsby Lorenzo.....just wondered if going the other way could suit you...they are no longer made, but secondhand ones come up occasionally?
Also, I tried a Wow, but had to go to the osteopath as it totally compressed my spine the wrong way (might have been the fitter?.j

 

[SEL]

I'm a little over 5'3" and ride a part bred draft horse when she isn't broken. She's got the width of her full draft horse daddy

Her temporary saddle is a balance saddle and its very wide. It definitely doesn't put me in the best position but she really likes it. I think someone with a bit more leg length than me would look better in it but my hips don't complain.

Her saddle that needs refitting is a wow saddle and although the modular system means it 'should' be able to work for both of us you need to get a really, really good fitter if its a more challenging set-up. Mine was giving both of us all kind of back issues so I got hold of one of the WOW saddle gauges and actually it needed tweaking (new parts) all over - and that was not long after a refit.

 

[milliepops]

Yeah, thought that would be nice and I'd be capable of slight tweaks here and there. No idea how horse feels about air panels. No idea how I feel about them either, but they do have a lot of options. I've gone back and forth about trying one for awhile. If I can find someone with a good reputation to come out, I'll consider it.

you can get them with flock as well, or foam, or a mixture, it's not just flair these days. but agree you need a fitter you are happy with in the first instance regardless.

 

[sbloom]

I'm broadly on the side of never using a narrow twist, not truly narrow. However there are other factors that can make a twist ride narrow or wide, it can be quite subjective. I direct anyone contesting that back to the research done by Latif et al in 2018 on twist width. I have seen twists for riders built so narrow that the outer edge of the rails were suspended in the channel rather than having ANY direct support from the panels.

Difficult to know where to send you, but I will say MW/W isn't wide, it really isn't, so I suspect twist isn't actually your issue.

 

[sbloom]

What width of twist and seat, depth of seat, build of flap, each rider needs is endlessly fascinating.

I'm a little over 5'3" and ride a part bred draft horse when she isn't broken. She's got the width of her full draft horse daddy

Her temporary saddle is a balance saddle and its very wide. It definitely doesn't put me in the best position but she really likes it. I think someone with a bit more leg length than me would look better in it but my hips don't complain.

Her saddle that needs refitting is a wow saddle and although the modular system means it 'should' be able to work for both of us you need to get a really, really good fitter if its a more challenging set-up. Mine was giving both of us all kind of back issues so I got hold of one of the WOW saddle gauges and actually it needed tweaking (new parts) all over - and that was not long after a refit.

You may not be that narrow, I have plenty of customers who are shorter, or absolutely petite, yet don't want a narrow twist. Ribcage shape is another matter, and is a challenge, as your knees get nowhere near the widest point.

And yes, just tiny changes to the fit, even without new parts (ie with more standard saddles) can make a huge difference - for instance a 2mm change in balance from front to back can make all the difference to crotch discomfort, lower back pain, keeping your lower legs underneath you....

 

[eggs]

One of my horses sounds similar to your except he is also very slightly croup high. Although he takes 6'9" rugs he only has space for a 17" saddle. The best fit we could find for him and me is the Amerigo Vega.

 

[Zuzan]

The matter of narrow twist saddles on wider horses has popped up here and there on various threads. Its sort of become my dilemma.

I've had a Fairfax Gareth for a few years now but my horse has changed shape and the balance is just off, even with adjustments. He has a tall, wide, and long wither now, with an uphill build. So a fair height difference between his withers and back. He also has a shorter back. The Gareth wasn't my dream saddle, but tolerable and served us well.

I've sat in a number of saddles recently to include Albion, Ideal, Schumacher, Kieffer, Passier, Sommer/Iberosattel, Equipe and Erreplus.

The best one for me is the Erreplus, but for the horse, I'm not sure. The best one for him is the Iberosattel/Sommer with their wide comfort panels. But all of these saddles, with the exception of the Erreplus and Equipe (which would never work for this horse) are so freak'n wide. Who fits in these? Maybe those with long slender flat thigh legs. It was like sitting on on an upside down U or a square. Idk.

But how bad is it, really, to have a more narrow twist/saddle for the rider when the horse goes in a MW/W tree and prefers/needs a lot of wither and spine space?

At this rate I think we will both retire before I find a new dressage saddle.

Then, what is up with these tiny slender panels? Horse seems to like the widest and longest panel possible for weight distribution.

So what does one do? Sell the horse because our needs conflict ?‍

Have you had a look at the Hildago leather tree saddles .. ? I have a dressage model on my my very broad high and long withered horse and find it has an narrow enough twist for me .. I have narrow hips too .. so I feel your pain.

 

[soloequestrian]

I'm another Balance person so very used to wide saddles. While their original models did feel very wide in the twist, the newer ones have been designed to still be wide for the horse (to give space for deformable padding) while being much narrower for the rider (I actually find them a bit too narrow!). Might be worth a try. Heather Moffett does a seatbone saver that can lift the rider a little and give the feel of a narrower twist. Her saddles are really comfy too with memory foam seats.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I'm broadly on the side of never using a narrow twist, not truly narrow. However there are other factors that can make a twist ride narrow or wide, it can be quite subjective. I direct anyone contesting that back to the research done by Latif et al in 2018 on twist width. I have seen twists for riders built so narrow that the outer edge of the rails were suspended in the channel rather than having ANY direct support from the panels.

Difficult to know where to send you, but I will say MW/W isn't wide, it really isn't, so I suspect twist isn't actually your issue.

Ok, so if it isn't the twist, what is it? Or is it potentially a combination of things depending on the saddle?

One of my horses sounds similar to your except he is also very slightly croup high. Although he takes 6'9" rugs he only has space for a 17" saddle. The best fit we could find for him and me is the Amerigo Vega.

Big Name Saddle Company does carry Amerigo. I've not sat in very many. So if a fitter from there does come out, odds are there will he an Amerigo. This horse takes a 6'3 rug and really is a "compact" version.

Have you had a look at the Hildago leather tree saddles .. ? I have a dressage model on my my very broad high and long withered horse and find it has an narrow enough twist for me .. I have narrow hips too .. so I feel your pain.

I know someone around here sells them. Not sure that I can compete in one though. I'd have to double check.

I'm another Balance person so very used to wide saddles. While their original models did feel very wide in the twist, the newer ones have been designed to still be wide for the horse (to give space for deformable padding) while being much narrower for the rider (I actually find them a bit too narrow!). Might be worth a try. Heather Moffett does a seatbone saver that can lift the rider a little and give the feel of a narrower twist. Her saddles are really comfy too with memory foam seats.

I was also intrigued by her saddles, but decided against them ultimately. As for Balance saddles, I am assuming none are available around here, so I will have to research.

 

[Zuzan]

.............
I know someone around here sells them. Not sure that I can compete in one though. I'd have to double check. ..........

Not sure why you wouldn't be able to compete in one .. ? They're legal over here .. and look pretty conventional .. well my model, the Venice, does... though they make "Iberian" models too.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Not sure why you wouldn't be able to compete in one .. ? They're legal over here .. and look pretty conventional .. well my model, the Venice, does... though they make "Iberian" models too.

I am not sure of the FN's verbiage on trees. It is still a "tree" so I suppose it's fine, but would double check anyway just because it is a bit different and I don't want to be stopped by some oddball rule, I guess.

Edit: Hildalgo saddles are allowed.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Saw something related to my question on Facebook if anyone is curious: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3782881178445784&id=238905202843417

WE TALK ABOUT SADDLE WIDTH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE TWIST?

People often talk about the width of the saddle but what about the twist? When looking at the saddle, the narrowest part of the seat is defined as the twist or waist (from here on it will be referred to as the twist). Some riders prefer a narrow twist, allowing them to feel a greater connection with the horse. This preference may also be driven by rider anatomy and or comfort, in respect that a narrower twist allows the rider’s hips to be less abducted (taken away from the saddle) compared to a saddle with a wider twist. The question here is, if riders opt for a narrow twist in an attempt to be closer to the horse and/or be more comfortable then what, if any effect does this have on the horse?

In a group of elite dressage horses, we have demonstrated the effect that a saddle with a narrow twist can have on saddle pressure distribution and equine locomotion (1). In this group of horses, saddle fit was checked and confirmed following industry guidelines. As with all of our research we combine various measuring systems, in this study we used pressure mapping and motion capture to quantify saddle pressure distribution and equine locomotion. Despite correct saddle fit, areas of high pressures were located either side of the back in the region of T10-T13 (1) (Image A). This area corresponds to the region where the saddle is at its narrowest (the twist) therefore, in this study, we found that saddles which had a narrow twist, caused areas of high pressures at T10-T13. The pressures were of a magnitude to be of concern and were repeatable every stride. Horses will develop a locomotor strategy to alleviate any discomfort caused, in this case, by the areas of high pressures in the region of T10-T13.

There have been significant advances in our understanding of the interaction between the horse-saddle-rider. Coupled with the advent of technology has meant significant advances in saddle design, construction and materials have been made in recent years. With saddlery modifications (Image B.) allowing more room at T10-T13 for the horse, without comprising the rider requirements (connection and comfort), we found that the areas of high pressures in the region of T10-T13 were reduced (1). When the magnitude of pressure was reduced with saddlery modifications, locomotion was altered with increased range of motion (1) and movement symmetry. In addition, back dimensions were altered in the region of T10-T13. This seems logical to expect, as high pressures induced by saddle width (see previous blog) have been shown to cause concavities in the back muscles (2), therefore, by reducing saddle pressures in the region of T10-T13 seems logical that muscle dimensions would also alter.

It should be noted that not “all” saddles which have a narrow twist will cause high pressures. However, it is hoped that this blog highlights the complexities of saddle fitting and further bolsters the need and importance of correct and regular saddle fit with a qualified saddle fitter, this cannot be over emphasised. The horse can feel a fly, why can they not feel a saddle which is creating high pressures? The answer is they can, they just develop a locomotor strategy to compensate. This study also highlights the impact that research can have on advancing our understanding on the effect that, in this case, the saddle can have on the horse. With this knowledge, saddle fitting can be modified for the good of the horse.

Hope this blog is of interest – please share to raise awareness on the complexities of saddle fitting.

Kind Regards
Dr. Russell MacKechnie-Guire
Centaur Biomechanics

#equineresearch #biomechanics #centaurbiomechanics #veterinarymedicine #equinephysiotherapy #equinetherapist #onlinecourses #onlineseminar


1. Murray R, Guire R, Fisher M, Fairfax V. Reducing Peak Pressures Under the Saddle Panel at the Level of the 10th to 13th Thoracic Vertebrae May Be Associated With Improved Gait Features, Even When Saddles Are Fitted to Published Guidelines. Journal of Equine Veterinary Science. 2017;54:60-9.
2. MacKechnie-Guire R, MacKechnie-Guire E, Fairfax V, Fisher D, Fisher M, Pfau T. The Effect of Tree Width on Thoracolumbar and Limb Kinematics, Saddle Pressure Distribution, and Thoracolumbar Dimensions in Sports Horses in Trot and Canter. Animals (Basel). 2019;9(10).