Dressage saddle recommendations ....

[quizzie]

I would love recommendations for a dressage saddle for a very large (18.2) TB x Holst horse.

The story so far : He has a very large shoulder and forward girth groove, so most saddles ride up onto his shoulder despite appearing to fit well when stationary.
He has a pronounced wide rib cage behind the girth groove which exacerbates the problem.
His topline is a typical sport horse shape, ie not wide and flat.

I have a long hip to knee distance.

Current tack : Fairfax gareth (18") with wide gullet plate fits both of us well, and a Childeric balance girth has solved the slipping forward problem.

However......as with many modern dressage saddles, the saddle is designed to sit the rider close behind the shoulder blade in the centre of balance.....but this horse is so big and long, that he appears more comfortable and willingly forward if I take my weight back a little further.....

So... any suggestions of saddles that might be worth considering, that will allow my weight to be centred a little back from his (massive) shoulder and allow for both our shapes!?

 

[blood_magik]

What’s the girthing arrangement like?

My big horse is in an ideal and it has the option to move the first point strap to allow for a bigger shoulder - my saddler sorted it for me and it’s definitely made a difference.

Before it was adjusted, the first strap sat behind the knee block.

I’ll try to find a picture…

 

[quizzie]

What’s the girthing arrangement like?

My big horse is in an ideal and it has the option to move the first point strap to allow for a bigger shoulder - my saddler sorted it for me and it’s definitely made a difference.

Before it was adjusted, the first strap sat behind the knee block.

I’ll try to find a picture…

View attachment 113652

Yes...have tried different girthing arrangements, current set up is same as your photo....the issue seems to be now, the position that the saddle sits me in, as in too close to the shoulder, rather than the fit of the saddle per se.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I love love love my Lavinia Mitchell Dressage saddles they are the comfiest saddles ever I have one for both of Arab's both wide but very different back profile's.

1 has huge rib cage and shoulder forward girth groove and a bit croup high so a bit like your horse, tried various saddles for years nothing really worked then he got muscle damage from a too narrow saddle, Lavinia herself did a remedial fit for him and I ordered a new saddle best thing I ever did for him, I couldn't believe how much he really moved in saddle and in time his muscle all came back and more.

Second horse is wide but flat backed like a native so everything slipped on him but the LM doesn't and I use a flexigirth with it.

They do come very wide compared to most other saddles and you can use a shim system with them if they think the horse needs it.

 

[Zoeypxo]

I use the albion platinum ultima dressage saddle on my big shouldered wb, absolutely love it , the only saddle ive used that doesnt slip when she starts throwing her shapes.

 

[quizzie]

I use the albion platinum ultima dressage saddle on my big shouldered wb, absolutely love it , the only saddle ive used that doesnt slip when she starts throwing her shapes.

Thank you....unfortunately Albion saddles do not fit me!

 

[quizzie]

I love love love my Lavinia Mitchell Dressage saddles they are the comfiest saddles ever I have one for both of Arab's both wide but very different back profile's.

1 has huge rib cage and shoulder forward girth groove and a bit croup high so a bit like your horse, tried various saddles for years nothing really worked then he got muscle damage from a too narrow saddle, Lavinia herself did a remedial fit for him and I ordered a new saddle best thing I ever did for him, I couldn't believe how much he really moved in saddle and in time his muscle all came back and more.

Second horse is wide but flat backed like a native so everything slipped on him but the LM doesn't and I use a flexigirth with it.

They do come very wide compared to most other saddles and you can use a shim system with them if they think the horse needs it.

Thank you...unfortunately they do not appear to have any fitters who cover my area, and looking at the saddle, I think the position of the stirrup bars/blocks will not solve my problem.

 

[Zoeypxo]

Thank you....unfortunately Albion saddles do not fit me!

Thats a shame

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Thank you...unfortunately they do not appear to have any fitters who cover my area, and looking at the saddle, I think the position of the stirrup bars/blocks will not solve my problem.

AH saddles might work SBloom on here fits them.

 

[quizzie]

AH saddles might work SBloom on here fits them.

...Despite the fact that he has a wide ribcage, he actually does not have a wide/flat back....it actually slopes away like a thoroughbred type, so not what I believe the AH saddles are designed for ....but happy to be corrected?!

 

[sbloom]

...Despite the fact that he has a wide ribcage, he actually does not have a wide/flat back....it actually slopes away like a thoroughbred type, so not what I believe the AH saddles are designed for ....but happy to be corrected?!

Yes they're for wider tree angles, slightly flatter backs.

Sitting you close to the wither is almost always a good thing, the shoulder is being restricted because of the fit imo.

 

[quizzie]

Yes they're for wider tree angles, slightly flatter backs.

Sitting you close to the wither is almost always a good thing, the shoulder is being restricted because of the fit imo.

I suspect you are right, but I can't find one that he approves of......despite several well regarded saddlers telling me the saddles I have tried fit well...the horse tells me otherwise!

Could you make any suggestions ?

Saddles I have tried include Barnsby lorenzo/Fairfax Gareth/ Fairfax world class/ Wow ( I needed the osteopath after that!)/ various Albions and Equipes/ Stride free ( he hated that!)... amongst others that I have forgotten!
He is happy in his jump saddle, which is a close contact Stephens ( I think based on the old Pessoa with a fairly flat tree, and short almost vertical tree points)...but unfortunately, not a hope of riding a decent dressage test in it!

 

[sbloom]

I would say a flatter tree and more generous twist is a good place to start, French trees tend to be very narrow there. Anything I'd recommend would be seen as advertising I'm afraid! Perhaps if you say where you are people could recommend other fitters with different approaches? Different saddles get fitted differently which means that working through the local SMS fitters (which clearly Childeric doesn't fall into) may not bring you a sufficiently different way of fitting that he would prefer. Ticking boxes on saddle fit is very different to a horse-centred problem solving approach, often involving team work (trainer, bodyworkers etc).

 

[quizzie]

I would say a flatter tree and more generous twist is a good place to start, French trees tend to be very narrow there. Anything I'd recommend would be seen as advertising I'm afraid! Perhaps if you say where you are people could recommend other fitters with different approaches? Different saddles get fitted differently which means that working through the local SMS fitters (which clearly Childeric doesn't fall into) may not bring you a sufficiently different way of fitting that he would prefer. Ticking boxes on saddle fit is very different to a horse-centred problem solving approach, often involving team work (trainer, bodyworkers etc).

Would you be prepared to PM me the names of some trees that might fit that criteria please?

I am only using a childeric girth, not saddle, and the only "foreign " tree that I am aware of trying was in an equipe....the rest are all English made as far as I am aware?

I am East Sussex/Kent/Surrey border area... decent fitters are fairly thin on the ground, but would love to hear of any with a wide range of saddles to try?

ETA...re the article, he has no muscle pain/atrophy etc in the saddle area, and is happy to work in a reasonable advanced outline with a light snaffle contact, his changes are well established.

 

[sbloom]

I certainly can't recommend people with large ranges to try, usually those are the SMS type fitters and often only have similar brands to each other (not always, but I'm guessing you've gone through most of the local fitters). And sorry for thinking you'd tried a Childeric saddle . I personally find that even many English brands have rail/twist shapes that aren't helpful for horses, perhaps down to tree selection by the fitter, though with the changeable headplate brands they don't have much choice in tree shape in terms of that most critical area of the tree. Also, interestingly, most English saddles have mid-rear balance points and, if you're being fitted into a largeish seat size to acommodate leg length, as can be fairly common, then you will probably sit further back, on average. Getting the rider into a seat shape, and flap thickness/design, that allows the knee to drop and the thigh to rotate internally, is the best way to help the horse carry us and to help us with comfort, ideally with a seat shape that supports the pelvis, without having to hang on with your core, front or back, in a neutral position. Rider fit is coming on leaps and bounds and we're understanding much better how to help the horse this way too.

 

[Jellymoon]

It sounds like you’ve tried a lot, and I feel your pain! I’m going to throw in a radical suggestion: have you tried a Solution? Yes, they are treeless, and very marmite, both for horses and their riders, but for some people who have been through many tree’d saddles, they can be a bit of a revelation. I’ve not ridden in the dressage version, but I had a horse similar to yours in that I had tried so many different tree’d saddles, everything either went up his whither, or if it didn’t do that, it rubbed at the back. And he showed his displeasure by bucking. The day he had a Solution (needs to be very well-fitted by a specialist) he stopped all of that and went on to be a happy horse.

I did try it on my others, and they all absolutely hated it, and the jumping one does sit you in a bit of a bucket seat. Maybe dressage one is different, I don’t know. But some horses, I guess, just prefer it. I did everything in it with him - hunting, eventing, team chasing. He wasn’t one for much dressage but he schooled on the flat nicely in it.

When I sold the horse, he went with his Solution saddle and the phone number of the fitter! I hear they are still going well!

They do a free two week trial I believe. And the saddles look pretty much like normal saddles. I will say, I am quite pleased none of my other horses liked it, as it did give me bum ache on long rides, but I’d rather that than being bucked off!

 

[shortstuff99]

One of mine has humongous shoulders and an extremely forward girth grove and the only saddle I could get to work for us both was a wow saddle with the H-girth.

 

[quizzie]

It sounds like you’ve tried a lot, and I feel your pain! I’m going to throw in a radical suggestion: have you tried a Solution? Yes, they are treeless, and very marmite, both for horses and their riders, but for some people who have been through many tree’d saddles, they can be a bit of a revelation. I’ve not ridden in the dressage version, but I had a horse similar to yours in that I had tried so many different tree’d saddles, everything either went up his whither, or if it didn’t do that, it rubbed at the back. And he showed his displeasure by bucking. The day he had a Solution (needs to be very well-fitted by a specialist) he stopped all of that and went on to be a happy horse.

I did try it on my others, and they all absolutely hated it, and the jumping one does sit you in a bit of a bucket seat. Maybe dressage one is different, I don’t know. But some horses, I guess, just prefer it. I did everything in it with him - hunting, eventing, team chasing. He wasn’t one for much dressage but he schooled on the flat nicely in it.

When I sold the horse, he went with his Solution saddle and the phone number of the fitter! I hear they are still going well!

They do a free two week trial I believe. And the saddles look pretty much like normal saddles. I will say, I am quite pleased none of my other horses liked it, as it did give me bum ache on long rides, but I’d rather that than being bucked off!

Thank you, but BD rules state treeless saddles not permitted.

 

[quizzie]

One of mine has humongous shoulders and an extremely forward girth grove and the only saddle I could get to work for us both was a wow saddle with the H-girth.

It may have been a poor fitter, but last time I tried a wow saddle, I got off and immediately phoned the osteopath...it put my sacroiliac joint out...too painful to want to try again!

 

[sbloom]

Thank you, but BD rules state treeless saddles not permitted.

Solution saddles are allowed in all main disciplines afaik despite the unhelpful BD document on tack.

 

[quizzie]

Solution saddles are allowed in all main disciplines afaik despite the unhelpful BD document on tack.

Yes...on checking the rule book says treeless are allowed, and the tack guide says they are not!....really helpful!

Out of interest....do treeless saddles ride more like close contact saddles, or does the padding make you feel more distanced from the horse?

Also, as this horse tends to push his saddles forward, what is there to stop a treeless saddle riding right up his shoulder?

I did once make the mistake of putting a jump saddle with very short points, on a young mare I had just broken, with an elasticated girth....She had a major bronking fit ( later discovered due to the pain of dislodging a temporary tooth cap and catching it on the bit!)......When I hit the ground, I was still in the saddle and my feet were still in my stirrups...she had bucked the saddle clean off over her shoulders with me still in it.....nothing broke, but the combination of a rather round shaped mare with no wither and an elasticated girth, made it possible! Not a combination I've repeated since!

 

[sbloom]

How a saddle feels for the rider varies massively and, even if you think it might be about construction, feeling perched or disconnected is much more about how it fits the pair of you. Is it in balance on the horse so you're sitting in the right part of the saddle? Are you able to sit in neutral pelvis without effort? Are your legs able to drop underneath you, with some inward rotation? All of this will influence how it feels.

They are stable on some horses, unstable on others, and again that may depend on the rider, it's amazing how much stabilising the rider massively improves the stability of the saddle in some cases. It nearly always helps in all cases.

I fit one brand that sits you up a fair way, for many horses I then add an Invictus half pad - over the weekend I went to a lady who'd been riding in a K&M Compact GP but she felt the closest she'd ever felt to her horse in the set up I describe.

I use almost solely elasticated girths on wider, flatter backs...the answers are always "it depends".

 

[Jellymoon]

Once I’d got used to the Solution, it felt like a normal saddle, I didn’t feel especially close, or perched, just regular…You use a dressage girth with them, so I didn’t have the extra bulk under my leg, which I guess is more like a close contact.

I was very sniffy about treeless, wouldn’t have even contemplated it, until my eventing coach at the time (well-known, mainstream person) suggested it. She said she had a mare who wouldn’t go at all unless she was in her Solution so, despite the professional who rode her grumbling about it, she had to go eventing in her treeless saddle!

You do need one of their top fitters though, as the padding you put underneath is key to the fit.

Anyway, worth a 2 week trial I would have thought, you just never know, your horse might like it!

 

[Jellymoon]

And in answer to your question about what’s to stop your horse pushing it forward - I honestly don’t know, but all I can say is, all the tree’d saddles I tried on him went forwards, and the Solution was the only thing that didn’t.
The fitter did explain the technical stuff to me, but I’m ashamed to say it went right over my head. I was just happy he was happy.
I think, also, it’s worth pointing out that all treeless saddles are not equal, there are some very bizarre looking things out there which I wouldn’t touch with bargepole. And tbf, I wouldn’t use one again unless I had to, tree’d saddles are much nicer to ride in and arguably better for the horse IF they fit and the horse likes them.
However, you may have one of the few that prefers treeless…