Dressage with a draft/Heavy?

[TheSubwayDino]

Hi all,
Planning to get a belgian draft or a Clydesdale or shire or something along the lines of that. However, I've taken an interest into dressage. Are these breeds acceptable to dressage or will I be restricted in some shows affiliated or not? I doubt I'll be going off and away to affiliated places but quite curious. ?
Thank you

 

[SEL]

You can do dressage with them - there are some specific heavy horse classes.

But they aren't designed for it so getting them light in the hand and balanced enough to canter a 20m circle is more of a challenge than some other breeds.

If dressage is really something you want to progress with them why not look at the lighter draft breeds like the Noriker

 

[planete]

Belgian drafts and Clydesdales are very different beasts conformation wise. A Belgian draft is a very ponderous animal who will find it hard to bend his body and engage his hindquarters to any degree and will probably suffer in the long run if asked to do it as job.

But:

. She trains with Bent Branderup.

 

[Tiddlypom]

They can do dressage, and some can do it well, but you might break them by regularly asking them to do stuff that they are not designed to do.

If dressage is really your thing, go for something less heavy.

 

[ihatework]

I suppose there is dressage and there is dressage!

Pootling around some prelim/novice, and that doesn't matter whether that is unaff or aff, is just basic schooling - so in my opinion it doesn't matter what type of horse you have.

Now on a heavy, you just have to bear in mind they aren't designed for it so it won't come as easy to them and if you get the bug then you are unlikely to be super competitive or go up the levels.

 

[SEL]

Belgian drafts and Clydesdales are very different beasts conformation wise. A Belgian draft is a very ponderous animal who will find it hard to bend his body and engage his hindquarters to any degree and will probably suffer in the long run if asked to do it as job.

But:

. She trains with Bent Branderup.

Love this - but he doesn't actually look that big for a Belgian! He's more like my Ardennes who was trained by Giffords Circus and was pretty nimble for a chunk (although it did his joints no good). There's another stunning Belgian who appears on some of the Philippe Karl promo videos but I bow down to the effort his rider has put in because they really, really aren't designed for it.

The ones the dealer in Essex is importing really do look like yearling 'ploughing' types - proper heavies. He keeps importing so must have buyers but I wonder how many of them are going to turn up as bolshy 4yos in a few years.

 

[planete]

Love this - but he doesn't actually look that big for a Belgian! He's more like my Ardennes who was trained by Giffords Circus and was pretty nimble for a chunk (although it did his joints no good). Ti broke our Ardennes to ride here's another stunning Belgian who appears on some of the Philippe Karl promo videos but I bow down to the effort his rider has put in because they really, really aren't designed for it.

The ones the dealer in Essex is importing really do look like yearling 'ploughing' types - proper heavies. He keeps importing so must have buyers but I wonder how many of them are going to turn up as bolshy 4yos in a few years.

When we bought our Ardennes mare as a two year old we were told to break her straightaway before she became any stronger. I remember having to lead her everywhere in a bridle at one point because she found out she could turn her head away and we were then like kites on the end of a string. She became a very reliable kind worker though as she matured. That was forty five years ago before many were imported. I favoured her over a Shire as I am very short and could not see myself reaching high enough to put a collar on one. I broke our Ardennes to ride as well and she was easy but I only ever walked her as I did not want to take chances with her limbs.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

Our 18.1 hh Clydesdale competed BD up to elementary , as well as XC and WH , in the 1990's , when seeing heavy horses being ridden , let alone competing , was quite a rarity ! He became a bit of a local celebrity and was a great ambassador/poster boy for the breed .

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZML4N6qUt/

I don't know if that link will work but it's an American lady who has trained her Percheron to do 2 time tempi's, canter pirouettes, piaffe etc etc

 

[TheSubwayDino]

Love this - but he doesn't actually look that big for a Belgian! He's more like my Ardennes who was trained by Giffords Circus and was pretty nimble for a chunk (although it did his joints no good). There's another stunning Belgian who appears on some of the Philippe Karl promo videos but I bow down to the effort his rider has put in because they really, really aren't designed for it.

The ones the dealer in Essex is importing really do look like yearling 'ploughing' types - proper heavies. He keeps importing so must have buyers but I wonder how many of them are going to turn up as bolshy 4yos in a few years.

Haha the Essex seller is someone who I'm looking to buy from but unfortunately there seems to be some negative customer experience so I am definitely going to be cautious if I end choosing to go with him

 

[TheSubwayDino]

I suppose there is dressage and there is dressage!

Pootling around some prelim/novice, and that doesn't matter whether that is unaff or aff, is just basic schooling - so in my opinion it doesn't matter what type of horse you have.

Now on a heavy, you just have to bear in mind they aren't designed for it so it won't come as easy to them and if you get the bug then you are unlikely to be super competitive or go up the levels.

Yeah for sure! I doubt we would do anything super crazy bearing the fact of their heavy load. Probably definitely novice and prelim stuff thank you so much!

 

[stangs]

My concern with buying from a dealer who imports youngsters is that the good horses will still be in Belgium imo.

 

[TheSubwayDino]

My concern with buying from a dealer who imports youngsters is that the good horses will still be in Belgium imo.

Yeah, he buys from kill pens so it is a very hit and miss. However, he seems to not disclose issues. I had saw an incident where he sold a youngster who had ocd in his hocks that they only found out a few weeks after but they were happy to take the youngster back and sell on. However, he didn't refund the buyer (I know it's case by case) and didn't disclose the information to the next buyer- who was in for a brutal awakening.

I am still unsure if buying from them is the best thing to do or not, he's local to me and belgain drafts is sort of what I want and definitely getting 5 stage vetting if I bite the bullet and go with him.. again I got no idea but my yard manager is happy to come up and help me. Again, still not sure. ?

 

[SEL]

My concern with buying from a dealer who imports youngsters is that the good horses will still be in Belgium imo.

Yup!!!

OP - there is a FB page called "Belgian Draft (Brabant) and Ardennes Group UK Only.

If you are really, really wanting one then join this group and ask on there about them and about that dealer. There are people on there who are extremely knowledgeable and have imported using Belgian contacts who really know the market and know the quality youngstock. But quality isn't cheap.

The dealer you are looking at breeds some very nice cobs, but he isn't breeding the Belgians he is importing them. He may well be buying many that haven't met their breeders own standards and would normally go for meat, but its hard to tell.

 

[TheSubwayDino]

Yup!!!

OP - there is a FB page called "Belgian Draft (Brabant) and Ardennes Group UK Only.

If you are really, really wanting one then join this group and ask on there about them and about that dealer. There are people on there who are extremely knowledgeable and have imported using Belgian contacts who really know the market and know the quality youngstock. But quality isn't cheap.

The dealer you are looking at breeds some very nice cobs, but he isn't breeding the Belgians he is importing them. He may well be buying many that haven't met their breeders own standards and would normally go for meat, but its hard to tell.

Already in it ? I am hoping to find one honestly. My only requirements is 4 year old begian draft hopefully I can find one on there! Alot of people have given me advice there as well always actively scrolling on there and on here!

I really must thank you Sel, you've really helped me alot ?

 

[stangs]

If he's buying from kill pens, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. They'll be in kill pens for a reason - either physical issues, or they've been bred for meat (not sure if Belgian drafts are, but I know some other European drafts do get bred for meat), in which case they haven't been bred for longevity or for rideability. If he's not disclosing issues, that's even worse.

5 stage vetting won't be particularly helpful with a yearling either, though good that your YM is willing to help.

Are you completely set on a Belgian draft? If your budget allows, would a Suffolk Punch or Normandy Cob be a suitable alternative (if you can find one, that is)?

 

[TheSubwayDino]

If he's buying from kill pens, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. They'll be in kill pens for a reason - either physical issues, or they've been bred for meat (not sure if Belgian drafts are, but I know some other European drafts do get bred for meat), in which case they haven't been bred for longevity or for rideability. If he's not disclosing issues, that's even worse.

5 stage vetting won't be particularly helpful with a yearling either, though good that your YM is willing to help.

Are you completely set on a Belgian draft? If your budget allows, would a Suffolk Punch or Normandy Cob be a suitable alternative (if you can find one, that is)?

Quite dead set haha, I haven't found any suffolk punches or Normandy sadly. I am looking to purchase in November tho so it is a waiting game. If I can come across a Suffolk in time I would definitely purchase them instead I do follow the Suffolk Punch Society on FB and there seems to be occasional sales here and there!

 

[Snowfilly]

As others are saying, be careful of young imported Belgians. They’re mostly meat pen babies, bred for the trade rather than work, and while it’s heartbreaking, they’re not being bred for soundness or type.

The good Belgian youngsters are graded, shown and carefully raised and cost a fortune. It’s probably better to buy direct from the breeder - join the FB group mentioned above and you’ll get plenty of advice and leads.

If you’re dead set on doing affiliated dressage, make sure you get something that’s on the BD list of approved breeds for their heavy horse classes - I don’t think Norikers are at the moment - and they have to be registered.

 

[Gloi]

I'm curious rather than critical but why do you want a Belgian heavy horse for dressage?

 

[TheSubwayDino]

I'm curious rather than critical but why do you want a Belgian heavy horse for dressage?

I'm not looking to get a horse just for the purpose dressage. More seeing if it's something people do with them, I doubt I'd be doing it all the time maybe something like a novice or premlin at something unaffiliated but definitely considering doing some in hand showing! so we have something we can work towards. I'm quite a new enthusiast for Belgian Drafts so I'm learning something new each and everyday!

 

[abbijay]

Going back to your clydesdale and shire dressage rather than a belgian draft come and have a look on my page...
fb.com/dressageclydesdale
Of course they can do dressage! Yes they don't all find it easy but I had a shire on loan for 2 years and he was a natural, he was very much built uphill and it made work very easy. My first clydesdale wasn't a dressage natural but had a fabulous temperament and loved to be challenged so ended up learning all the moves to medium and was working on his changes.
They are increasingly popular as a family horse with a good attitude and there are plenty out there competing up to elementary.
Look up Jane Lavington and Boston Deluxe to see proof that these horses can actually go all the way.

 

[sbloom]

I presume you don't have narrow hips . Not all are super wide, but the fact the ribcage is also so deep, and that on average people riding dressage want slightly longer stirrups and leg length (more difficult on very wide ribcages), your choice of saddle will be critical, and if the horse is very wide then the models available are limited.

 

[tulla100]

Do not buy one. I bought a Belgian Draft filly ten years ago from a similar dealer in Kent. I still have her. She is a huge field ornament. Companion to my 30 year New Forest Pony Gelding. Health issues from CPL/Mites to Sweet Itch, you spend a fortune on creams, sprays etc. etc. Its a constant patch up that you will not win. After ten years l have learnt , do not stable them. Leave out with a decent electric fence, feed hay adlib during winter. Find a good farrier who is willing to trim them. Her pedigree on her passport was massive but l found out in Belgium they are bred like cattle on farms for milk and cream, foals are treated much like calves. The foals good or bad are just a product. I say this from ten years of looking after her. I cannot sell her as she is not worth anything, l can afford to keep her, lots of folk cannot. This is just my experience of Belgian Drafts.

 

[TheSubwayDino]

Do not buy one. I bought a Belgian Draft filly ten years ago from a similar dealer in Kent. I still have her. She is a huge field ornament. Companion to my 30 year New Forest Pony Gelding. Health issues from CPL/Mites to Sweet Itch, you spend a fortune on creams, sprays etc. etc. Its a constant patch up that you will not win. After ten years l have learnt , do not stable them. Leave out with a decent electric fence, feed hay adlib during winter. Find a good farrier who is willing to trim them. Her pedigree on her passport was massive but l found out in Belgium they are bred like cattle on farms for milk and cream, foals are treated much like calves. The foals good or bad are just a product. I say this from ten years of looking after her. I cannot sell her as she is not worth anything, l can afford to keep her, lots of folk cannot. This is just my experience of Belgian Drafts.

Oh my, I am so sorry you have to deal with that. If its OK, and if you remember, would you be able to message me what breeder they are from? I have gotten advice from people who have given me a few people to not buy from and want this to go right depending if my final decision is a belgian draft thank you!

 

[tulla100]

Hostess van Sporkingshove is her passport name, she came from a farm near Dunkirk

 

[stangs]

After ten years l have learnt , do not stable them.

What was the issue that made her less suitable to be stabled than other horses? (If you don't mind me asking)

 

[TheSubwayDino]

Hostess van Sporkingshove is her passport name, she came from a farm near Dunkirk

Aw bless, really sorry about what happened to them and you wishing you the best ?

 

[tulla100]

In a wooden stable block being itchy rolling round the walls ends up with no stable

 

[I'm Dun]

Have you sat down and really thought about the costs involved? My 16hh TB eats a bale of hay a day, I dread to think what a proper heavy eats. Lot of yards wont take them, even more cant as the stables arent suitable. Tack is hard to find, farriers who will shoe them are hard to find and more expensive. Tranport is going to be much much harder to find. I cant think of a single transporter round here using 7.5ton lorries so not sure what people do.

And after all of this you have an enormous horse that needs constant correct handling, and isn't designed to be ridden anyway. They break an awful lot as well. Horses arent designed to be that big and it takes its toll.

Why have you decided on this particular type?

 

[TheSubwayDino]

Have you sat down and really thought about the costs involved? My 16hh TB eats a bale of hay a day, I dread to think what a proper heavy eats. Lot of yards wont take them, even more cant as the stables arent suitable. Tack is hard to find, farriers who will shoe them are hard to find and more expensive. Tranport is going to be much much harder to find. I cant think of a single transporter round here using 7.5ton lorries so not sure what people do.

And after all of this you have an enormous horse that needs constant correct handling, and isn't designed to be ridden anyway. They break an awful lot as well. Horses arent designed to be that big and it takes its toll.

Why have you decided on this particular type?

Thank you, I've considered quite alot of this and thankfully the yard I work at is Arms open to a potential belgian and they're they're happy to help me which has definitely encouraged me more to seek one ? I've gotten recommendations from alot of people locally and all over the UK of farriers, tack shops and other things too.. they're still pricy but worth it!

I honestly don't know why I'm eager to get a belgian or something draft or heavy type. It's one of those things I suppose. A bit expensive though..