kerilli
Well-Known Member
Do you use your legs in the same way in trot as in canter, on the flat? Say for working trot and working canter, kind of thing.
Thankyou.
Thankyou.
Driving/engaging aids - pls can I ask...
- Thread starter kerilli
- Start date
WellyBaggins
Well-Known Member
mmm, interesting Q! In trot I tend to alternate my legs when asking for medium, then bounce them for collection, never really taking them off during collection, jst varying degrees of "on", in canter I tend to use them in the moment of suspension. Sorry not a very clear description 
kerilli
Well-Known Member
thanks, at least I received one response! I think I'll rephrase and ask again!
that does make sense though, much appreciated. It's really difficult to work out what one does when one does it automatically and it can vary according to horse's reactions, natural stuffiness, etc etc maybe.
that does make sense though, much appreciated. It's really difficult to work out what one does when one does it automatically and it can vary according to horse's reactions, natural stuffiness, etc etc maybe.
Sol
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't know 
Hence not being able to answer! Sorry!
Hence not being able to answer! Sorry!
Baggybreeches
Well-Known Member
As in asking for more engagement, like going from collected trot to passage? Sorry I don't really understand the question!
Bearskin
Well-Known Member
In canter I sometimes use my outside leg to activate the outside hind (first footfall of the canter) otherwise I use my legs in the same way. For more collection they may come back a bit. My body and seat "try" to give the horse directions as to what version of the trot or canter I want.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
I'm teaching someone at the moment, and don't seem to be able to get through to her precisely how to use her legs. She says she's been taught to use them differently when in trot cf when in canter, for example.
I was taught to use mine in the same way in various paces - e.g. a driving aid (strong push if requd), a maintaining aid (lighter push), a containing/holding aid (stiller hold with legs, for downwards transitions), but I want to know what everyone else does, please!
icestationzebra
Well-Known Member
I guess what you are really asking is how to teach feel...... answer: very very difficult!
Sol
Well-Known Member
Going to attempt to answer in the hope something may be of use? 
Generally I let my legs just go with the movement eg. in trot they just knock in each stride which I guess would be the 'maintaining aid', using a tad more strength if the horse backs off/slows down/whatever to reinforce it. For transitions I usually use a sort of sharper version of this? So walk-trot is just slightly stronger/quicker, trot-canter outside leg back & a quick squeeze.
Also, at the moment I find I'm riding Dan's canter differently, I guess more towards your idea of a containing/holding aid keeping my legs very close and 'on' with the odd sharper nudge when I feel him really go to drop back as we're still working on the idea of canter being FORWARD (he likes me to drop him and kick - it's not happening).
I think I'm going to be quite distracted when I ride tomorrow.... xD
Generally I let my legs just go with the movement eg. in trot they just knock in each stride which I guess would be the 'maintaining aid', using a tad more strength if the horse backs off/slows down/whatever to reinforce it. For transitions I usually use a sort of sharper version of this? So walk-trot is just slightly stronger/quicker, trot-canter outside leg back & a quick squeeze.
Also, at the moment I find I'm riding Dan's canter differently, I guess more towards your idea of a containing/holding aid keeping my legs very close and 'on' with the odd sharper nudge when I feel him really go to drop back as we're still working on the idea of canter being FORWARD (he likes me to drop him and kick - it's not happening).
I think I'm going to be quite distracted when I ride tomorrow.... xD
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
i dunno if this is what you mean but....
once im in a gait, im not constantly using my leg-i put the horse *in gear* and he should stay there until i *change gear*.
halt to walk, or halt to trot is a squeeze in *normal/neutral* leg position
of both legs
to go to canter, outside leg only just back behind the girth
medium in any gait is both legs forward on to girth and squeeze once, horse maintains medium until legs come back to neutral.
passage is alternate legs on the girth
piaffe is legs back, half way between neutral and rein back position and both legs on together (to avoid the shoving/joggling/rider doing piaffe on immobile horse look!!!)
i school my horses so that closing both hands and tightening my seat results in increased collection, but i dont have to do anything with my legs to maintain the increased activity, the steps get higher and more active, and then to go forward i release the seat and hand.
keep it simple-you cant possibly be half hal, use legs, use seat, half halt, use legs, use seat etc etc etc over and over whilst trying to ride tempi's or zig zags, its too much to do-teach the horse to stay in gear.
once im in a gait, im not constantly using my leg-i put the horse *in gear* and he should stay there until i *change gear*.
halt to walk, or halt to trot is a squeeze in *normal/neutral* leg position
of both legs
to go to canter, outside leg only just back behind the girth
medium in any gait is both legs forward on to girth and squeeze once, horse maintains medium until legs come back to neutral.
passage is alternate legs on the girth
piaffe is legs back, half way between neutral and rein back position and both legs on together (to avoid the shoving/joggling/rider doing piaffe on immobile horse look!!!)
i school my horses so that closing both hands and tightening my seat results in increased collection, but i dont have to do anything with my legs to maintain the increased activity, the steps get higher and more active, and then to go forward i release the seat and hand.
keep it simple-you cant possibly be half hal, use legs, use seat, half halt, use legs, use seat etc etc etc over and over whilst trying to ride tempi's or zig zags, its too much to do-teach the horse to stay in gear.
Festive_Felicitations
Well-Known Member
When I ride tomorrow I will think about what I'm doing and then try and answer!
Just one thought - I'm not sure as to the exact nature of your problem but I had a really fustrating flat lesson several yrs ago with a good instructor. I could not for the life of me do what she was asking. After a while we figured out that it was a height issue (she was 5'3 and I'm 5'11), my heels and calves are simply in a different place to hers so she had to change her way of explaining how to use my leg (and which part of it). Could that be an issue?
Just one thought - I'm not sure as to the exact nature of your problem but I had a really fustrating flat lesson several yrs ago with a good instructor. I could not for the life of me do what she was asking. After a while we figured out that it was a height issue (she was 5'3 and I'm 5'11), my heels and calves are simply in a different place to hers so she had to change her way of explaining how to use my leg (and which part of it). Could that be an issue?
EllieK
Well-Known Member
It's quite hard to phrase an answer that makes any sense at all! I was always taught that the horse should answer any questions given by leg aids and be rewarded for doing so, so I ask once to change the gait, then almost leave the horse be until I ask for another change in their way of going.
I ride with a continual light 'contact' between leg and horse and just vary the pressure and position of the contact to change, but I only ask once and return to the light feel as a reward for the response. However the horses I ride are forward going and thinking so we tend to get in a royal mess if I accidently kick/ catch them thelwell style (!).
I ride with a continual light 'contact' between leg and horse and just vary the pressure and position of the contact to change, but I only ask once and return to the light feel as a reward for the response. However the horses I ride are forward going and thinking so we tend to get in a royal mess if I accidently kick/ catch them thelwell style (!).
Tempi
Well-Known Member
Im with PS on this - the horse should be trained to stay 'in gear' so that you arent using your legs when trotting/cantering - only using your legs and seat for transitions down or within the pace.
For example to trot i just shorten my reins on Bloss, slight squeeze with the legs and she trots - i then expect her to stay in a good working trot without me using my legs, if shes feeling lazy she has a couple of good squeezes and a little tap on her croup with the stick to bring her under herself and she will then stay how i want her until i want to either collect the pace or go forwards into canter.
Ive been taught that you never drive a horse forwards, the horse should be taking you forwards.
For example to trot i just shorten my reins on Bloss, slight squeeze with the legs and she trots - i then expect her to stay in a good working trot without me using my legs, if shes feeling lazy she has a couple of good squeezes and a little tap on her croup with the stick to bring her under herself and she will then stay how i want her until i want to either collect the pace or go forwards into canter.
Ive been taught that you never drive a horse forwards, the horse should be taking you forwards.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
thanks everyone, all good so far.
PrincessSparkle, I totally understand the way you use your aids, that's the ideal imho (although i'd say that 1/2 halt = use legs, seat, hold slightly if necessary etc all in 1 beat... i think! but obv if horse is maintaining balance well then no need for repeated 1/2 halts I guess) but what if you're on, say, an idle horse who needs motivating to learn how to go properly and carry himself? There's no way to avoid (intermittently) repeated leg aids imho... a bit like Kyra's "kick-sled" analogy - I give a sharper push to engage the horse forward, and don't repeat it again until necessary. Hope that's right! (Tap with whip if leg aid doesn't galvanise horse forwards, kind of thing.)
Felicity, totally understand that, and there is a height diff here, but all we've been working on is releasing the knees and dropping the heels (i.e. not gripping with knees as use legs) so it shouldn't be that dramatically different I hope...
out of interest though, what did she (at 5'3") do with her legs that was different from how you use yours? thanks!
PrincessSparkle, I totally understand the way you use your aids, that's the ideal imho (although i'd say that 1/2 halt = use legs, seat, hold slightly if necessary etc all in 1 beat... i think! but obv if horse is maintaining balance well then no need for repeated 1/2 halts I guess) but what if you're on, say, an idle horse who needs motivating to learn how to go properly and carry himself? There's no way to avoid (intermittently) repeated leg aids imho... a bit like Kyra's "kick-sled" analogy - I give a sharper push to engage the horse forward, and don't repeat it again until necessary. Hope that's right! (Tap with whip if leg aid doesn't galvanise horse forwards, kind of thing.)
Felicity, totally understand that, and there is a height diff here, but all we've been working on is releasing the knees and dropping the heels (i.e. not gripping with knees as use legs) so it shouldn't be that dramatically different I hope...
out of interest though, what did she (at 5'3") do with her legs that was different from how you use yours? thanks!
dressager
Well-Known Member
To go up a gear one touch of both legs, no squeezing or kicking. If no response one huge kick then leave alone. For canter move outside leg behind girth. No leg aids to maintain the pace, legs just hang or guide around turns and corners.
But if you mean more engagement then I guess the legs are always trying to activate the horse's back legs. So, in canter, more inside leg to encourage the inside hind to carry more. In trot my horse's left hind is weaker so I would use more left leg to activate it (but also a slight shoulder in position to ensure it does actually step under)
But it's hard to just define the role of the legs without then also thinking about seat and back.
But if you mean more engagement then I guess the legs are always trying to activate the horse's back legs. So, in canter, more inside leg to encourage the inside hind to carry more. In trot my horse's left hind is weaker so I would use more left leg to activate it (but also a slight shoulder in position to ensure it does actually step under)
But it's hard to just define the role of the legs without then also thinking about seat and back.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
oh yes, to teach them to *stay in gear* there will def have to be some repetition-light touch of leg, if no response i will then do whatever it takes to get the horse galloping (be that smack of whip, big kick or whooping like a cowboy!), until the horse is jumping forward off a light leg. i then let them carry me, and i go back to neutral, but as soon as they drop behind the leg, they get sent forward in to gallop again,they have to learn to keep taking the rider forward without reminding.
camilla4
Well-Known Member
Exactly my way of doing things, but it is so easy to find yourself nudging to keep the impulsion - leaving well alone takes a surprising amount of discipline doesn't it? It is the only way, though, if you really want to teach a lazier horse to move off the leg properly.
Festive_Felicitations
Well-Known Member
The main difference was that I can not use my heel particularly with out either taking my knee right off the saddle, turning my toes out and wrapping my leg round or bringing my leg right back and up.
She was trying to get me to give sharper, clearer aids as the horse was quite sluggish and her way of doing this was to give a 'dig' with the heel (not wearing spurs) just behind the girth, which I couldn't do with the rest of my leg position/contact going to pot. And its hard to be 'sharp' with your calves. That sort of issue - so not the type of aid more how to apply them.
I know it sounds kind of obvious what the problem was but at the time neither of us thought of it and I don't think she realised quite how big the height difference was till I got off.
PS Very interesting post!
She was trying to get me to give sharper, clearer aids as the horse was quite sluggish and her way of doing this was to give a 'dig' with the heel (not wearing spurs) just behind the girth, which I couldn't do with the rest of my leg position/contact going to pot. And its hard to be 'sharp' with your calves. That sort of issue - so not the type of aid more how to apply them.
I know it sounds kind of obvious what the problem was but at the time neither of us thought of it and I don't think she realised quite how big the height difference was till I got off.
PS Very interesting post!
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Thanks Felicity, that makes perfect sense. Yes, that's part of the problem, I think an upwards dig with the heel (drawing lower leg up) looks inelegant, affects balance (simultaneous tightening of knee I think) - but as it's not something I'm able to do, I'm mostly going on aesthetics... although I think a longer lower leg with weight in the heels, squeezing in sharply but briefly, is much more effective as well as more elegant.
totally agree camilla, it's so easy to end up with a niggling repetitive leg which the horse just learns to ignore, it's not easy to sit still and do nothing and then intermittently say "GO forward".
totally agree camilla, it's so easy to end up with a niggling repetitive leg which the horse just learns to ignore, it's not easy to sit still and do nothing and then intermittently say "GO forward".
Herpesas
Well-Known Member
I'm with PS on this one - my horse was idle to the point of sleep when I got him and completely ignored the leg (he liked to 'train' people to constantly nag at him with their legs so he could then switch off). I went through a long period of pony club kicking, tapping up with the stick and putting him into a flat out gallop whenever he backed off.
The way I cracked it finally was to take him out into the field and gallop him then collect, gallop then collect, over and over. Once he got the idea that collection would be followed by a bit of a hoon he became more enthusiastic!
Now my legs hang off his sides unless I want him to move away from them (transitions, lateral work, extension or collection). He stays in gear, if he doesn't the legs go on and, if he ignores them, he gets a tap with the stick.
Half the battle teaching this is to quicken the rider's reactions, the horse won't quicken until they do and they need to mean it. Effective riding is something that needs to be taught first, when they get the hang of that, the 'feel' should come naturally.
The way I cracked it finally was to take him out into the field and gallop him then collect, gallop then collect, over and over. Once he got the idea that collection would be followed by a bit of a hoon he became more enthusiastic!
Now my legs hang off his sides unless I want him to move away from them (transitions, lateral work, extension or collection). He stays in gear, if he doesn't the legs go on and, if he ignores them, he gets a tap with the stick.
Half the battle teaching this is to quicken the rider's reactions, the horse won't quicken until they do and they need to mean it. Effective riding is something that needs to be taught first, when they get the hang of that, the 'feel' should come naturally.
camilla4
Well-Known Member
It's certainly something I have to be disciplined about! I'm schooling two horses at the moment which have been ridden in exactly this way - "nag, nag, nag" and are pretty dead to the leg now. I'm sure I've been guilty of producing exactly this problem in ponies in my childhood though!
I agree about bring the heel up and in as a leg aid. I do aim to use the whole lower leg in an "out and back" motion. A secondary problem with using the heels is that, if you are wearing spurs, you have no say as to when they are brought into action. If the lower leg is used correctly, the spurs are only used when that is the intention.
Festive_Felicitations
Well-Known Member
"although I think a longer lower leg with weight in the heels, squeezing in sharply but briefly, is much more effective as well as more elegant." - I agree whole heartedly! Especially when your heel hangs below the horses stomach.
In the case I was talking about I was on a borrowed horse who was quite impressivey ignoring me and we were trying to ride with some leg aids not just 'whip aids'...
Sitting with no leg aid (ie not nagging) is SO HARD! I have to trick my self - when ever I want my leg to be quiet I wiggle my toes in my boots so that my foot is doing 'something' but not bothering the horse!
In the case I was talking about I was on a borrowed horse who was quite impressivey ignoring me and we were trying to ride with some leg aids not just 'whip aids'...
Sitting with no leg aid (ie not nagging) is SO HARD! I have to trick my self - when ever I want my leg to be quiet I wiggle my toes in my boots so that my foot is doing 'something' but not bothering the horse!
camilla4
Well-Known Member
That's quite a good tip Felicity - I will try that! I find it's an issue with riding generally - sometimes the key is to do less, or even nothing, and that's a real art!