Dually help wanted please

Birker2020

Birker2020

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I've got a dually halter and started working my horse in it a few weeks ago. He understands the principles and intially worked very well in it, and was very respectful of it.

It was great for loading and leading too. But now with leading, he still insists on trying to lunge for tubs of hay left outside stables. When he stands next to one he will try and grab a mouthful. So I pull back as I was shown on the lunge line attached to the near side ring on the halter with my left hand, knuckles upwards, so it tightens across his nose in one quick jolt. He lifts his head as if to say 'sorry Mum' but then a couple of seconds later repeats the process and goes to grab again. The other evening we must have repeated the action about fifteen times before I gave up, as each time I was putting more energy into the jolt and felt it was a bit over the top and not getting us anywhere. Some of the times I would just jolt back the rope into his chest once, sometimes two or three times. After a few efforts to try to get to the hay tub he'd go to turn his head slowly towards it, as if he was weighing up whether it was worth stealing some hay or not worth the aggro of being reprimanded for it. You could almost see the brain ticking over and his expression was 'oh I don't understand why you are hurting me' (but maybe that's me reading more into it than I should) But he still continued to do it, almost pretending he wasn't going to take any until his lips were almost on top of it then he would sneak a grab at the hay.

How many times does it take for the message to get through I wonder??

Where am I going wrong, can anyone advise? I will try and take some film of this happening if I can remember and upload it to show you what I am talking about.

I am right to be facing him with the line in my left hand, knuckles upwards, and push the rope into his chest/throat region with a jolting motion aren't I? Help!!

He is hungry but how much is hunger and how much is greed is hard to tell, but he is not starved by any means and shows plenty of weight.
 
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You're just tormenting him. If you're walking past something and he pulls away, correct him and praise him when he obeys, but doing it time after time for no reward will just make him peed off.
 
Why do you stand him next to food when he's hungry? If you must tie him up outside move any food out of reach. If you really wanted him to be so obedient he will stand next to food without touching it you shouldn't have given up! Patience is the key and if this is something that is so important to you, then I would do the training when he ISN'T hungry, you are more likely to have his attention. Personally, I wouldn't bother if the dually has done its job in loading and leading.
 
I agree with other posters this is just tormenting him and you are setting yourself up for failure. If he respects the dually for loading and leading, I would not reprimand using it for such a reason. As an example would you sit a child next to a bowl of sweets and then smack their hand every time they tried to take one? The temptation is just too much! Just set up resentment. I would either allow him to have the hay or move it right away instead of irritating him.
 
If he is willing to put up with that level of discomfort to get to food, perhaps you could make some changes to his management so that he isn't so hungry? Just like me, when my pony is hungry he is grumpy and uncooperative! :D

Personally, this is what I would do:

Choosing a time when you know he isn't hungry, e.g. just after he has been fed, walk him past a bucket of hay with you on the left at his head, and the bucket on the right (or vice versa). Hold the line with about 1-2 ft of slack, so that you aren't holding him tight but he doesn't have enough rope to reach the food. Anchor your hand at your hip and be prepared to hold it there when he snatches at the food. As you go past, if he moves his head to reach the food, he'll make the line go tight and apply pressure himself. When he moves his head back, he'll release the pressure and thus reward himself for correcting the behaviour. In this way, the horse is in control of the amount of discomfort applied - the harder he pulls, the more pressure he feels! I found this method particularly effective on my pony when accompanied by a firm 'no' as soon as he starts to move his head. After a while, I could just use my voice to anticipate and correct his behaviour, which can then be transferred to ridden work etc.

Hope that helps :)
 
Surreydeb said:
I agree with other posters this is just tormenting him and you are setting yourself up for failure. If he respects the dually for loading and leading, I would not reprimand using it for such a reason. As an example would you sit a child next to a bowl of sweets and then smack their hand every time they tried to take one? The temptation is just too much! Just set up resentment. I would either allow him to have the hay or move it right away instead of irritating him.
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As usual everyone jumps down your throat ........

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. I wasn't tormenting him, and have NEVER tormented him. :mad:

I was talking to my friend outside her stable. She spoke to me as I was leading him past and I stood talking to her. As I stood talking to him he kept trying to eat the hay that I'd spent the last few weeks teaching him not to steal. After a while he caught my attention what he was doing.

She couldn't believe that he kept doing it. Sorry but I think that if I am stood still talking to someone he should be taught to stand still also. The fact that I had food next to me is not relevant.

When he did stand still as was expected of him he got a rub between the eyes.

I love my horse to bits, I wouldn't torment him. I am trying to teach him not to pull me (and others) all over the yard to grab food. And I did say he MAY have been hungry. But he had been picking at a net prior to this for an hour, so I do think a lot of the time he is greedy.
 
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He is following his instincts. He is standing right by food so puts his head down to eat it. Suggest you put names on all the tubs of hay and teach him to read his own. Or jsust carry on yanking the poor creatures head with a dually.
 
Asking a horse to stand next to food and ignore it while your attention is elsewhere is a very big ask imo. Unfortunately (or fortunately in my view) horses will never be robots and it is our responsibility to be aware of them and the environment, especially when we are training.
Perhaps moving a few feet away from temptation might help next time if you are chatting? Food is a powerful motivator and once rewarded (snatched hay) with food a behaviour can become more persistent very quickly ime. Another option is to use food to your advantage and use clicker training.

ps. Another option is teach a cue that allows him to eat and if this happens again you can tell him he can eat and just let him. lol
 
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Sorry you thought I was jumping down your throat but I was just expressing an opinion! I think you are asking too much expecting him to ignore food he is standing next to. I agree manners are important and I do ec
 
Stupid phone! I do expect mine to stand nicely whilst talking but wouldn't expect to do it standing right by some food which is a massive deal to most horses. I would prefer to pick my battles when my horse has half a chance to succeed and be rewarded accordingly.
 
Ladyinred said:
He is following his instincts. He is standing right by food so puts his head down to eat it. Suggest you put names on all the tubs of hay and teach him to read his own. Or jsust carry on yanking the poor creatures head with a dually.
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Why don't you stop being so bitchy and nasty and try and help me instead of saying what you are saying.

I wasn't yanking his head, I was doing as I was shown when I went to the monty roberts demo with him.

Instead of overly criticising why not try to help folks instead? Or are you not able to do that? I asked for help for a problem I was encountering with my horse.
 
Ladyinred said:
He is following his instincts. He is standing right by food so puts his head down to eat it. Suggest you put names on all the tubs of hay and teach him to read his own. Or jsust carry on yanking the poor creatures head with a dually.
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lol
 
I think what you are trying to do make sense op, but to be brutally honest, ANY slightly hungry horse ( im not suggesting for one minute that you starve your horse), will go for hay within reach.

Your only option is to chat out of snatch shot of food. He really ought not to be reprimanded constantly for a natural instinct. Once, yes......then stand for a few seconds, praise him and take him out of the way.

Hope that helps.:)
 
applecart14 to try and illustrate the point I was making, think about how you would train a two year old human baby to sit next to an open bar of chocolate and not touch or eat it while you chatted to a friend. I have a feeling managing the environment (moving baby or chocolate) will have to come into that scenario.
Sometimes thinking ahead and changing the environment is also a big part of training and day to day management.
 
hi applecart. Sorry, cannot offer any constructive advice but just wanted to comment. I am a big fan of Intelligent Horsemanship and I use a dually on all my horses when I need to be in training mode, particularly on my youngster. I have also found in the past that you can get into a cycle of 'jerk' 'jerk again' etc without a lasting improvement. I got in quite a muddle with escalating behaviour from both of us, so my approach now is to try to be as soft as I possibly possibly can. This means you have to watch incredibly intently for the first TINY sign that your horse is going for the hay and intervene then- dont wait until his head is down by the haynet but when his nose twitches or he looks towards it, do a tiny ask.

Its a lot easier to type than to do but its the only thing I can think of to help. I have to say also, with my youngster I remove all temptation whenever possible to make it as easy as I can for him to get it right.

NB I am NO expert and make lots of mistakes but this is just my attempt to be helpful!
 
tobiano said:
I have also found in the past that you can get into a cycle of 'jerk' 'jerk again' etc without a lasting improvement. I got in quite a muddle with escalating behaviour from both of us, so my approach now is to try to be as soft as I possibly possibly can. This means you have to watch incredibly intently for the first TINY sign that your horse is going for the hay and intervene then- dont wait until his head is down by the haynet but when his nose twitches or he looks towards it, do a tiny ask.

Its a lot easier to type than to do but its the only thing I can think of to help. I have to say also, with my youngster I remove all temptation whenever possible to make it as easy as I can for him to get it right.
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Good advice.

Very often the focus is on jerking but that isn't at all helpful, timing and lightness is the key not jerking and getting more forceful.
 
Applecart I don't think being so defensive is going to get you very far, nor is name calling.

I think you asked too much of him, of course he's going to keep trying to get the food when it's in sight like that, most horses would.

If you really want / need to put a stop to that then you need to break it down and start by just standing for a few seconds near the hay and then build it up.

I'm not sure it is really a behaviour that the dually can solve alone!
 
applecart14 said:
As usual everyone jumps down your throat ........

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. I wasn't tormenting him, and have NEVER tormented him. :mad:

I was talking to my friend outside her stable. She spoke to me as I was leading him past and I stood talking to her. As I stood talking to him he kept trying to eat the hay that I'd spent the last few weeks teaching him not to steal. After a while he caught my attention what he was doing.

She couldn't believe that he kept doing it. Sorry but I think that if I am stood still talking to someone he should be taught to stand still also. The fact that I had food next to me is not relevant.

When he did stand still as was expected of him he got a rub between the eyes.

I love my horse to bits, I wouldn't torment him. I am trying to teach him not to pull me (and others) all over the yard to grab food. And I did say he MAY have been hungry. But he had been picking at a net prior to this for an hour, so I do think a lot of the time he is greedy.
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As you know, trickle feeding is hard-wired into horses. He was eating (not stealing) this hay for a while before you noticed and then he got reprimanded. You can see why he's confused.
I realise you are training him so my advice would be to either train or stop for a chat but don't combine the two;)
Will he load in an ordinary halter now? If he will you could probably dispense with the dually. If he's still towing people round the yard a dually is obviously not the answer.
 
If you are a Monty fan, you will know that he says you when you train your horse in anything you should set him up to succeed. Standing a peckish horse next to food, allowing him to eat and then yanking his head is not setting him up to succeed. I don't mean to jump down your throat at all, but I think you should be more aware of his body language and give him a gentle reminder before he gets as far as pinching a temptinng bit of hay under his nose, timing is crucial.

I agree with a previous poster who suggests you get the help of a IH instructor who can give you some pointers.
 
Wheels said:
Applecart I don't think being so defensive is going to get you very far, nor is name calling.
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Nor is making someone look foolish when they ask for help.

Suggest you put names on all the tubs of hay and teach him to read his own. Or jsust carry on yanking the poor creatures head with a dually. [/I]
Nor is using sarcasm or telling an owner they are mistreating their animal.

But hey ho each to their own.
 
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I don't like duallies personally and wouldn't use one, but I taught Sham not to steal* (other horses' hay, a patch of fresh grass at the side of the path etc) by watching her closely and the second her head went even slightly down I jerked the rope and growled "Leave it!" at her and she learned quickly and doesn't normally steal, even when she's hungry.

*I define stealing as taking food that she hasn't been given permission to have, including her own bucket feed. I make her wait while I put the bucket down or tie up the haynet then tell her she can eat - I won't tolerate a horse barging forward to get at food. Perhaps I sound mean, but at best it's very ill-mannered, and at worst it could be dangerous.

Works for us!
 
Diamond dogs took the words out my mouth. I'm not cruel but I do expect my horse not to snatch or grab at food I haven't given it after she/he has been told. I do it much the same way keep an eye on what they are doing whether I'm talking or not and in this instance a little jiggle on the rope should bd sufficient to bring his attention back to you. I also fail to see how your horse was that hungry as some have said if he was munching at his hay before you took him out - unless you'd literally just given him it: then I'd say that was a little unfair.
 
Yet again Applecart you are getting a hard time - for no good reason.

When I lead our horses in or out they pass big bales of hay, grass and all sorts of apparently irresistible stuff. Well I can say that they had better blooming well resist and not haul me towards the food.

Of course you should be able to stand next to some food with a horse for a few minutes without being dragged off to eat it, you have had some stupid responses.

No constructive advice sorry, my reaction is to yank on the headcollar and yell at the offender, they tend not to do it to me. I often also swear at them - soo cruel.
 
Some really not constructive comments on here . .

Applecart, you are on the right lines, but think about it this way: what behaviour would be incompatible with him lunging for a hay net?

I'd say, standing still a couple of metres from a hay net - ie he can't reach it without moving his feet. Then, if he moves his feet you just use the dually to put his feet back where they were.


Trying to stand closer than 2m or so is not really setting him up to succeed. To start with you may need to be a bit further away in fact.

Training him like this does need a lot of your attention though, he will probably do some tiny "asks" (eg stretching towards the hay, lowering his head or moving his feet) before he lunges for it - if you catch those first they are much easier to correct. So you will need to focus more on him than on who you're chatting to, at least to start with.

Btw unless the horse has had no food intake for several hours, I doubt hunger has much to do with it- some horses just like a food opportunity, hungry or not. :-)
 
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