Dubai pulls sponsorship on endurance

I suppose no-one wants to compete against possibly doped horses, depends how endemic doping is for them. so perhaps they'll regain everyone's trust and come back in later.
 
Suelin said:
Strikes me that this is more of "I'm taking my bat and ball and going home!"
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Classic, how do I get grape pips out of the keyboard !

Be interesting to see what happens to C4 racing next year. I would imagine the current sponsor is tied in for 12 months but it would not surprise me if they pull out as soon as they can.
 
Awful when you are expected to stick to the rules then get peevish when you get caught cheating.
The wise thing is not to rely to heavily on Arab money, too late for some I suppose, but you only get one soul, lol.
 
When a certain person was banned by the FEI he put on an invitation only race ride. They are able to suit themselves I guess! Arab racing used to be much more open until arab money took over. It will be interesting to see what happens.
 
I actually crewed a rider when Sheik Mo put on his ride after being banned. It was very well run & a pleasure to take part in. In that situation, a horse he was riding in a previous race (& he doesn't train himself) failed the test, & as the rider he is held responsible, so to do a ride he had to run his own 'unofficial' one. He still enjoys his riding, so why not put on a race on his own land?

It was a very clear message when he cancelled all rides at Euston sponsored by Janah. It's his venue, his sponsorship so why would he still pay to compee somewhere where national magazines accuse him & other arab countries of being outright drug cheats? They have never failed a UK test, & yes there are regular test. I'm not defending them, just saying why would he pay to come here. Problems such as fractures that are well documented in other countries, just don't happen in the uk.

UK endurance is a fairly small world, with all international competitors still competing at grass rooots (even they have to bring on youngsters). These people are very down to earth, hardworking normal people. There is no money in UK endurance, riders don't earn a living from it, race rides either don't have monetary prizes or they are very small & wouldn't even cover costs. Any international rider can be approached (obviously pick your moment, mid competition not good time), asked advice & I would expect a very friendly, helpful & civil response. It's known as an incredibly friendly, helpful sport for a good reason.

When you get countries going for top honours (as much as our riders try, they are competing against very wealthy professionals), the pressures are on the trainers to produce a horse that will win, a home race (with prize money & prestige) or a top international race. I'm not condoning it, but certain people do get away with more. The arab competitors used to try other UK races (okay still fast flat ones like Cirencester), often with success (never the tough moor rides though!). I haven't seen them compete away from Euston in over 5 years.

They have helped the sport a lot in the UK. When I've had dealings with them at crew points in the past away from Euston they've been pleasent & nice (though dreadful for dumping water bottles & leaving them, expecting others to clear up behind). It may be a blessing that GB endurance gets some breathing space & FEI rides are held at places other than Euston. Would I trust a horse from some countries to be totally clean? Not sure, trainers are under so much pressure to win. They have helped GB Endurance, & that should be appreciated. Does the UK have a drugs problem in endurance? No. Does the UK have a problem with long term health of endurance horses ? No, most go on competing at lower levels well into their 20's, fit & healthy.

Funny, I went to Golden Horseshoe last weekend, & whilst there was an article about drugs cheating on the notice board, no-one mentioned the loss of Euston at all.
 
A shame to have lost rides, but will this even things up? I assumed in the past that the arabs were winning due to the amount of money they chucked at it. If it's actually down to drugs, now we'll see and our country might be in with a bit more of a chance?
 
For a long time we just weren't keeping up with the latest advances & living in the past. These days riders are fantastic at training their horses & are really trying to compete with the big guns. money does pay a part, aside from drugs. If you have huge numbers of horses being professionally trained (leaving aside the fact you can afford to buy up the best horses in the first place), there is more chance you will find the horse with the ability to win major races. It's a numbers game. GB riders don't have huge strings to choose from & bottomless budgets. Money doesn't ensure you win, but it doesn't half swing the odds well in your favour.

Maybe there should be an increase in out of competition testing as well. Endurance horses aren't made in a couple of years, it takes a long time to get that level of stamina in them. As such, they are in training for years, so no reason why they can't be tested within the national organisations for years as they are produced. They should keep the rider responsible in competition. That way, if one fails they can't just ditch the trainer & keep winning as happened in flat racing.

The controversy over the 'race with the stars' at Euston within the endurance community was immense. Foreign money stirs people up, as does still holding an albiet unofficial race when you are banned. From a personal perspective it gave us the chance to compete against very good international competition at little expense (horse not FEI registered at that point although qualified). We had a great weekend & were glad we went.

There are more FEI rides in the UK, & it will produce better results rather than just favouring a type of horse suited to flat fast going.
 
pip6 said:
For a long time we just weren't keeping up with the latest advances & living in the past. These days riders are fantastic at training their horses & are really trying to compete with the big guns. money does pay a part, aside from drugs. If you have huge numbers of horses being professionally trained (leaving aside the fact you can afford to buy up the best horses in the first place), there is more chance you will find the horse with the ability to win major races. It's a numbers game. GB riders don't have huge strings to choose from & bottomless budgets. Money doesn't ensure you win, but it doesn't half swing the odds well in your favour.

Maybe there should be an increase in out of competition testing as well. Endurance horses aren't made in a couple of years, it takes a long time to get that level of stamina in them. As such, they are in training for years, so no reason why they can't be tested within the national organisations for years as they are produced. They should keep the rider responsible in competition. That way, if one fails they can't just ditch the trainer & keep winning as happened in flat racing.

The controversy over the 'race with the stars' at Euston within the endurance community was immense. Foreign money stirs people up, as does still holding an albiet unofficial race when you are banned. From a personal perspective it gave us the chance to compete against very good international competition at little expense (horse not FEI registered at that point although qualified). We had a great weekend & were glad we went.

There are more FEI rides in the UK, & it will produce better results rather than just favouring a type of horse suited to flat fast going.
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I agree 100% that endurance horses are not (or should not) be made in two years.

I am new to endurance and our young stallion participated in his first competition recently. He gained the top points for all horses of all ages who competed on the day.

He was approved for the Shagya stud book at three years of age and I have discovered to my horror, that to stay in Stud book A he must do 3 x 90kms at the age of 6, or be relegated to Stud book B which includes stallions who do not meet breed standards.

I am more than happy for him to compete next year to 90kms, but think 3 x is too much.
 
We've all had the John Wayne moment after increasing distance! That's when crew are so essential to catch you when you land.

Distances young horses are expected to do according to internaltional standards are another matter. My youngster (Crabbet so takes time to develop physically) is 5 & will only be hacking out this year. At 6 she will be doing pleasure rides, then start to compete aged 7 at novice level. No matter how talented the horse, I would keep them at novice level (& distance) for the whole first season. You only get one chance to lay foundations, better to do it right.

I wouldn't do 80km+ until their second competative season (would then be open level), but that's just me. I'm not an international in a rush to get the horse FEI qualified. I think you have to take a step back, what's more important, a name in a grade book or potentially the health of your horse. Take your time building him up, you want him to last his lifetime without issues. Better to have a b registeration but a happy, sound horse who has a long & active life. Some are ready aged 6 for the distance, others aren't, you will have to make that call.

You don't even know if he is capable of 90km yet, be careful about assuming he will want to know. Occasionally horses start to question about going out again after the first circuit/vet gate. My girl is very forward & happy solo (at longer distances there will be far fewer people on course later in the day) & we reguarly picked up company of combinations whose horses had stopped on course as they weren't happy alone & downed tools. Also, 90km is not a standard distance, so to do that you'll probably be looking at race rides of 100 or 120km, so you'll actually be doing a bigger distance (& to do those you both need to be advanced level) to meet those demands of the stud book. Seems a short sighted requirement.
 
Rollin, if I were you I would double check those requirements with your breed society. If they do drop him down a section in the stud book, does he get to bump up again if/when he does the requisite rides? If so, do it that way and he'll get back into the top stud book in his own time.

The lovely UK rider Beth Langley did this helpful chart of how to qualify for FEI under UK rules:
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As you can see, in the UK your horse wouldn't even be permitted to do 90km competitive endurance rides/race rides at 6 (although that said I think there is some get out in the rules for foreign experienced riders doing FEI classes only....but that's the exception rather than the rule and certainly not recommended). I know French rules are different but looking at the French results very few Shagyas seem to be competing at that level that often and that young. And what with them being somewhat of a rarity anyway it seems a bit short sighted of the studbook to expect them to bust a gut competitively before 6yo when they've got their whole lives ahead of them.

Nb My youngsters won't even be doing over 40km before 6yo. Heck the younger one will likely only just have been backed by then as he's very immature.
 
It's something she did to show the minimum qualification criteria in a chart, Zoe. I think after she did it some people did spot the odd error but it's not far off the mark.
 
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Thank you Esther. I did check with Shagya France who informed me that France has the toughest challenges for young horses in endurance. So True.

I watched the annual Selle Francais championships at EquitaLyon two years ago. In October of their third year young horses are loose jumped over big fences and then shown in hand and under saddle, with small jumps!!

The Hungarian National stud (foundation stud for the Shagya) don't put a saddle on anything till they are four.
 
From the EGB website:
Advanced Level Riders
The minimum age for a horse to compete at Advanced Level is 7 years...However 6yo advanced level horses can enter a CEI* and a CEI2* FEI ride if ridden by an FEI 3* qualified rider
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I should have added, that it is because he was approved for the stud book at aged 3. For CBHSin the UK 3 year old stallions are given a basic licence and can then be put forward for QA status when they have foals on the ground.

Under the French rules an approved stallion has 3 years to prove performance, so it would have been better if I had not had him approved at age 3. If he had been put forward at 4 years old he would do the kms at 7.

However, it was our first foal and we wanted to see what 4 international judges thought of him. (Not understanding how challenging this would be). Of the 13 stallions put forward that year only 3 were approved, so we felt we had made the right decision keeping him entire.

France has competitions for all disciplines SJ, dressage etc which are age related. If he were jumping he would have to be jumping 1m.40 at 6 years of age.
 
Hi I realise that Esther, its what she did with Tissy and is planning to do with her new horse, but as you put in you next post horses can do 80k and 120k rides as 6 yer olds so the horse the post was about could do the required rides if ridden by a qualified rider.
 
The 6yo thing is a bit of an anomaly as it is only there to cover a small number of foreign qualified horses who come to the UK and are technically qualified under FEI rules but not under EGB rules because they are too young. There was a bit of a sharp intake of breath at the AGM when it was voted in, and it certainly isn't best practice. And if it hadn't technically been allowed under FEI rules I don't think it would have been voted in. I don't know a single person who thinks doing 120km in a day on a 6yo is a good idea. To use Beth as an example, Tissy was 9 before she went above 80km having been brought on steadily for the previous three years.

It remains the case that if Rollin were bringing her young horse through the ranks in the UK, as someone new to endurance with no tame FEI*** qualified rider in her back pocket, the horse would not be permitted to do 90km CERs.

However as Rollin has now clarified, it's not that the shagya peeps expect all 6yos in the studbook to do 3 x 90kms, it's just an unfortunate unintended consequence of getting the horse graded too early. And as that's the case, I think I would personally be approaching the breed society and seeing if there was any slack that can be cut in the timeliness of the horse's performance achievements. Good luck Rollin - I hope you can get it sorted. The purebred shagyas are pretty rare so hopefully they will be able to compromise.
 
Thank you Esther, I am going to write again. I think they too are tied up by French rules. I am irritated rather than devastated. I know he is top quality.

You are correct that Shagya's are rare only 5,000 in the world. This is my business - rare breeds. There are only 500 Cleveland Bays in the world.

Very important I do the best for them. I am going to compete our Clevelands too.

Did you know that the London-Edinburgh Mail Coach covered 400 miles in 40 hours in all weathers and on poor roads. This meant the horses averaged 14 miles per hour (when allowing for stops and meals). Team changes every 20-30 miles. The Cleveland has great stamina.
 
Rollin said:
Did you know that the London-Edinburgh Mail Coach covered 400 miles in 40 hours in all weathers and on poor roads. This meant the horses averaged 14 miles per hour (when allowing for stops and meals). Team changes every 20-30 miles. The Cleveland has great stamina.
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They also got through a lot of Clevelands and other horses in those days. There were millions of horses on UK roads then, just as there are millions of cars today. The average working horse would last 3-4 years before they were knackered. Then it was off to the jobbing lot (car hire firm) where they were hired out to cab drivers who didn't own their own horse, or if they were a heavy they went to the railway yards. And from both places to the knacker yard for cat/dog meat. 10 was a good old age for a working horse in harness.
 
Suechoccy said:
They also got through a lot of Clevelands and other horses in those days. There were millions of horses on UK roads then, just as there are millions of cars today. The average working horse would last 3-4 years before they were knackered. Then it was off to the jobbing lot (car hire firm) where they were hired out to cab drivers who didn't own their own horse, or if they were a heavy they went to the railway yards. And from both places to the knacker yard for cat/dog meat. 10 was a good old age for a working horse in harness.
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The oldest horse ever has his portrait at the Museum of the Horse in Newmarket, he was a CB, who lived to be 60 years of age. I think he was called Old Billy.

The oldest horse in my yard is 34 and still hacks out with youngsters.
 
Interestingly, I met a lady today who breeds and competes Shagyas for endurance here in France.

I am sorry to divert from the original thread.

I think the requirements placed on young horses here is far too much.

But thats another story for another day!
JC
 
Have heard a rumour there will be another private ride at Euston. I think these days FEI riders are banned from entering non-authroised events....:confused:
 
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