Duck-Rape Kerfluffle...

[suebingham]

over on the SB got me to thinking...Are any of you uncomfortable with the idea of trucking your mare somewhere distant for what amounts to not even a one night stand?

Oddly, I am.

On her first breeding, my mare got loose, made a bee-line to the stallion she'd been calling back and forth to for a couple of days and that was that. Months later we had a nice filly on the ground. Five years later, E clearly has lovin' on her mind again every month but the 2 times, she's made a break for it, she's not been successful finding another stallion she likes. (yes, there are a couple around but she shows a rather fine level of disdain for them -- go figure )

Both times, I've gone and collected her -- and she actually seemed sad when I bring her home.

There are really too many horses in the US so I'm not all that jazzed about breeding her to be honest. But I also want her to be happy and if that means another fling and a big belly, so be it.

I know -- I AM a doofus. And honestly, I'd never thought about this before. E is more my friend and companion rather than just a horse.

 

[tigers_eye]

I don't know, I think I am happier that my only mare has been done by AI rather than had to be tied down by all manner of ropes and served "naturally". Sounds like your mare has a great life!

 

[S_N]

It's the mares that have had clitorectomies that I feel sorry for!

 

[meandmyself]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the mares that have had clitorectomies that I feel sorry for!

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the mares that have had clitorectomies that I feel sorry for!

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Why? Actually, more to the point, do mares... you know... have erm.. you knows....?

 

[TarrSteps]

What ARE you talking about SoddenNight? Are you talking about Caslick's operations? Because they have nothing to do with your incredible accusation? Or are you talking about spaying? If so, what a fascinating thing to feel sorry for a horse about.

I know hundreds of broodmares personally, thousands by association, and have never of such a thing. Not to mention that IF you had somehow heard about some bizarre operation done for the purposes you're implying . . .um, what would be the point? Anything interfering with a broodmare's "ability" as it were, would be pointless and cruel. What a strange idea.

As to the OP . . . (I can't believe I'm answering this) am I to understand you are bringing another unplanned horse into the world "just because". Wow. May I direct you to the "fugly horse" blog: http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/ And that you are okay with your horse running loose on to other people's property. . .?

Wow, I hope you're a troll and I'm a sucker.

 

[Madam_max]

whoosh

 

[suebingham]

[ QUOTE ]


As to the OP . . . (I can't believe I'm answering this) am I to understand you are bringing another unplanned horse into the world "just because". Wow. May I direct you to the "fugly horse" blog: http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/ And that you are okay with your horse running loose on to other people's property. . .?

Wow, I hope you're a troll and I'm a sucker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope -- not a troll (at least not ordinarily) and E's first foal several years ago sold for a fairly nice piece of change -- not a fugly bone in her body. And No, I am not particularly happy when E's gotten out -- although to be fair she did most of her running around on state trust land. The biggest concern here is usually the potential for a collision with a car.

As to the unplanned part -- Perhaps unplanned by me but who's to say I SHOULD be in charge of this? I know this sounds kind of flaky-fruity but I am not an animal rights nut-job by any case. One of there earlier posters mentioned the use of restraints for live cover. I'm not sure I'd want to be party to that with an animal who clearly has a sex drive, shows some level of discrimination/preference, and as an even more compelling reason, has been a loyal and kind companion to me.

Like I said, maybe I'm a doofus. ...a troll, never.

 

[suebingham]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's the mares that have had clitorectomies that I feel sorry for!

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Why? Actually, more to the point, do mares... you know... have erm.. you knows....?

[/ QUOTE ]

Merciful Heavens -- I would hope not.

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's the mares that have had clitorectomies that I feel sorry for!

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Why? Actually, more to the point, do mares... you know... have erm.. you knows....?

[/ QUOTE ]

Merciful Heavens -- I would hope not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I was wondering if they have *whispers* orgasms

 

[suebingham]

You know I don't want to come off any stranger

than I think I already have in this thread...

but...

I...

think...

they...

just...

might.

 

[PapaFrita]

LMAO!! I don't think you're strange! I think you're a bit sentimental about your animals. Like me

 

[suebingham]

How IS the mama-to-be, PF? My girl got absolutely mushy mushy kissy face when she was in foal.

 

[sallyf]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, I think I am happier that my only mare has been done by AI rather than had to be tied down by all manner of ropes and served "naturally". Sounds like your mare has a great life!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it is 11 years since i stood my own stallions and i can honestly say that we have never done any of the above.
In fact i have a mare that is equally a pain and goes man hunting when in season.
She stands unaided and unheld by anyone to be naturally covered i think she would be dissapointed if we tried anything else.

 

[teabiscuit]

my mare was an absolute slapper for the stallion

she seemed to enjoy it an awful lot and ropes were not needed in any way...

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
my mare was an absolute slapper for the stallion

she seemed to enjoy it an awful lot and ropes were not needed in any way...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, PF was like that first time as well.
She was AIed this time. I feel a bit bad about that

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
How IS the mama-to-be, PF? My girl got absolutely mushy mushy kissy face when she was in foal.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to see her this weekend! YAY!
Have no idea is she's pregnant. Won't know until the 15th, when she gets scanned. I'll take a nail and a bit of string though, just to make ABSOLUTELY sure

 

[S_N]

WOW!! I do beg your pardon!!

[ QUOTE ]
What ARE you talking about SoddenNight? Are you talking about Caslick's operations?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I do not mean a Caslicks or even a Pouret procedure! I mean a Clitorectomy!

[ QUOTE ]
Because they have nothing to do with your incredible accusation?

[/ QUOTE ]

My incredible accusation... against whom?

[ QUOTE ]
Or are you talking about spaying? If so, what a fascinating thing to feel sorry for a horse about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of a horse being spayed, but I am open to the possibility that it may be done.

[ QUOTE ]
I know hundreds of broodmares personally, thousands by association, and have never of such a thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too have experience with broodmares too numerous to mention.

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention that IF you had somehow heard about some bizarre operation done for the purposes you're implying . . .um, what would be the point?

[/ QUOTE ]

I KNOW that mares sometimes have Clitorectomies to combat stubborn infection - I'm talking about CEMO's, AKA Taylorella equigenitalis, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Escherichia coli. I KNOW this, as I have worked with a few such mares both in the USA and over here and I know of one mare in the UK that had a Clitorectomy in the past fortnight, performed by a leading Newmarket vet! I did NOT imply that a clitorectomy is performed to minimise a mares enjoyment! I said I feel sorry for them - BIG difference!

[ QUOTE ]
Anything interfering with a broodmare's "ability" as it were, would be pointless and cruel. What a strange idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ability to do what?

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I hope you're a troll and I'm a sucker.

[/ QUOTE ]

May I ask, are you asking me if I'm a troll? With over 15,000 posts...

I am truely astounded by the tone of your post!

 

[PapaFrita]

You go girl!!

Hey, but do mares have orgasms????

 

[S_N]

LOL! I would hate to say yay or nay, but the clitoris is there for only 2 reasons - enjoyment and to harbour nasty organisms, that can cause infertility. Whether that infertility is permanent or not, depends on whether the organisms that are living in the folds of the clitoris are carried forward into the genital tract by either intercourse or veterinary examination i.e with a speculum whist taking endometrial swabs.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, there are a fair few mares that seem to enjoy/anticipate the experience.......

 

[Bossanova]

[ QUOTE ]
What ARE you talking about SoddenNight? Are you talking about Caslick's operations? Because they have nothing to do with your incredible accusation? Or are you talking about spaying? If so, what a fascinating thing to feel sorry for a horse about.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no expert on breeding but I've heard of a clitorectomy, was told about it at a big AI centre actually.

http://www.pycock.co.uk/article5.htm
http://www.animalhealthaustralia.com.au/fms/Animal%20Health%20Australia/AUSVETPLAN/cemfinal.pdf

 

[Gingernags]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, I think I am happier that my only mare has been done by AI rather than had to be tied down by all manner of ropes and served "naturally". Sounds like your mare has a great life!

[/ QUOTE ]

Mwahahaha, mine must be a slapper too!

Wanted nada to do with the stallion, until she was in season - then she stood like a total trollop... tied down with nothing more than a headcollar and lead rope!! Must have thought it was her last chance bless, 15 years old and a maiden...

 

[dieseldog]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Or are you talking about spaying? If so, what a fascinating thing to feel sorry for a horse about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of a horse being spayed, but I am open to the possibility that it may be done.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have actually heard of a mare being sprayed - she had part of her womb removed to try to control her hormones. Unfortunately she then went a bit lame and as she had no womb or feet and no future was PTS.

I didn't even know that horses had *them* and that they could be removed - learn something new everyday.

 

[Gingernags]

[ QUOTE ]
What ARE you talking about SoddenNight? Are you talking about Caslick's operations? Because they have nothing to do with your incredible accusation? Or are you talking about spaying? If so, what a fascinating thing to feel sorry for a horse about.

I know hundreds of broodmares personally, thousands by association, and have never of such a thing. Not to mention that IF you had somehow heard about some bizarre operation done for the purposes you're implying . . .um, what would be the point? Anything interfering with a broodmare's "ability" as it were, would be pointless and cruel. What a strange idea.

As to the OP . . . (I can't believe I'm answering this) am I to understand you are bringing another unplanned horse into the world "just because". Wow. May I direct you to the "fugly horse" blog: http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/ And that you are okay with your horse running loose on to other people's property. . .?

Wow, I hope you're a troll and I'm a sucker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus - anyone else you want to insult????

How dare you tell someone they are the equivalent of Fugly for breeding a foal?

As for SN - she's foaled more mares than you have brain cells by the sound of it, a caslick is only the cutting and stitching together of the vulval seal - nothing to do with the clitoris or a clitorectomy.

Quite frankly you've just accused people for nothing and I think you owe them an apology for jumping to incorrect conclusions!

Methinks you've come across way more troll like than SN ever could!!!! She delivers foals for a living you know... she DOES know what she's talking about!

 

[TarrSteps]

I stand corrected and apologise. I have never heard of such an operation in North America (not saying it doesn't happen, just that none of the breeding farms I've been associated with have ever had such a thing done nor have any of the breeders I know which I just checked with by email) but from what you're saying its relatively common here. Wow. I'm interested in how it "affects" the mare though, and why it is relevant to a conversation about a mare "wanting" to be live covered. I would imagine it would be a painful procedure and make conception and pregnancy more difficult . . . .but then obviously not or it would not be worth the trade off to combat infection. Is the idea that this is the only way of addressing the infections? If so, and it causes the mare long term pain then . . . well, up there with firing. If it doesn't cause long term problems then what is the "cost" to the mare and the reason for sympathy? (Personally, I think quite a few things we do to horses, medical and otherwise, make them deserving of sympathy but I often wonder if that's a minority view.)

As to the idea that live covers are always done by force, again not my experience, although I certainly know people in the TB industry who are far more au fait with that sort of behaviour.

In a perfect world I like to see mares live covered in a pasture breeding closed herd as I've known a few people who do that and it seems to suit the horses down to the ground but that isn't going to happen. That said, live cover does carry some risks and complications in this day and age relative to AI and while I think it's not so simple as AI being "better" I can see why it's become the popular choice. But again, maybe not so much in the UK.

As to putting a foal on the ground to keep a mare "happy" and letting the mare in effect choose her own mate regardless of suitability (by literally being okay with her roaming the countryside - those of you that own stallions, would you be okay with that) I'm sorry but I think this is irresponsible. I'm glad the mare's first foal conceived this way was such a success and sold well but I can't help thinking of how many horses have been made this way that simply don't have a market and don't belong to people prepared to care for them for life. I would love it if every horse born would be wanted and useful, as the OPs obviously are, but a quick look at slaughter houses would suggest there are lots that aren't. I'm not saying all of the "surplus" horses are unregistered/unplanned - or that registration/planning is a guarantee of success - by any means but certainly evidence would suggest many are.

Again, apologies, especially for letting my latent "heat" on the subject - too many conversations about the "cruelty" of live breeding, too many about people breeding mares "just because" without thought to the 20 years the foal's going to be around.

Apparently I am a troll.

Oh, and on the subject of "spaying", I presume it will be less common now Regumate is FEI legal (has it perhaps always been legal in the UK?) but it was hardly unheard of in competition mares before. I know at least one top mare who was one of the earliest ET subjects before she was spayed and a couple others who were retired "to stud" although there was no chance they'd be getting that done. I've also known of a few riding horses done for medical or "behavioural" reasons, although I don't know if it was publicised. A friend of mine who is a top NA repro vet did a fair number of such ops and apparently they are relatively easily done by scope, obviously leaving no visible mark or scar. His opinion is it's no different than gelding a colt. . . I'm not sure if I agree or not but I can see his point, although I'm sure many people disagree on principle.

Btw, love the "brain cell" comment. You're probably right most days.

 

[Eceni]

[ QUOTE ]

I KNOW that mares sometimes have Clitorectomies to combat stubborn infection - I'm talking about CEMO's, AKA Taylorella equigenitalis, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Escherichia coli. I KNOW this, as I have worked with a few such mares both in the USA and over here and I know of one mare in the UK that had a Clitorectomy in the past fortnight, performed by a leading Newmarket vet! I did NOT imply that a clitorectomy is performed to minimise a mares enjoyment! I said I feel sorry for them - BIG difference!

[/ QUOTE ]

She's right

I used to be a Newmarket vet

I've never performed an 'ectomy, but they are used and are the recommended Tx for persistent infections.

At least is has some inkling of a scientific basis - unlike the Casslicks performed on racing fillies because they 'wind suck' (that is, the lips of the vulva make a noise) and it 'makes them run slower' - I'd call it witchcraft, but it'd give the witches a bad name...

E