Dummy Rider for breaking in - ideas please

[JoBird]

Could any of you who have made/bought one of these please post some photos so i could maybe make one? Have seen one for sale on Ebay for over £300 but it is only 19kg - what good is that!!

Or can you think of something I can fill with stone/sand and somehow fix to the saddle - all ideas and photos greatly appreciated!

 

[JoBird]

Sorry I meant to type only 10kg (it's dark in here!).

 

[mbequest]

For alot of horses it's not the weight on their backs, it's thevfact that there is something/someone on there backs. Goes back to their instincts to flee as this is traditionally where predators would attack, by leaping onto their backs.

 

[muddygreymare]

My sister works at a stud and when they break their horses in they strap a teddy on while lunging/longreining to get it used to having something on it's back then gradually build up to having a person on them eventually.
I would try that first before spending money

 

[assuan]

take one old pillow case and stitch a zip alone the opening, so you can seal it up.

You can then start gradually increasing the filling.

Use things like the rubber top from a school, you can even use dry soil or sand.

 

[JanetGeorge]

For alot of horses it's not the weight on their backs, it's thevfact that there is something/someone on there backs. Goes back to their instincts to flee as this is traditionally where predators would attack, by leaping onto their backs.

And 'dummies' are totally useless at overcoming 'predator on back' syndrome. Inert, lifeless objects do NOT rip your throat out! Horses aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer - but they're not stupid!!

 

[intouch]

We put a big green exercise ball in a haynet and attach it to the saddle - then we have an old set of overalls with barley in the legs and hay in the body and arms and a cowboy hat.

 

[PingPongPony]

tbh i don't think it'll work if its a lifeless thing that doesn't move.
i act as a dummy rider for my m8 have my bp, riding hat, gloves, long sleeve top and proper boots. then just have to make sure that there 2 people there with me (1 to catch me the other to catch the pony) and off we go sooo much cheaper than making one or buying one

 

[jhoward]

ive made one..

 

[cruiseline]

And 'dummies' are totally useless at overcoming 'predator on back' syndrome. Inert, lifeless objects do NOT rip your throat out! Horses aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer - but they're not stupid!!

I agree and actually they can do far more harm than good. If those 'dummies' slip and spook your horse, the flopping around all over the place during the spook will make matters 100 x worse.

I suggest you contact a reputable person who is knowledgeable at backing young horses and get the job done properly, first time round.

The old saying "it takes 5 minutes to ruin a horse, but a life time to correct it" is very true.

 

[Natch]

Well going against what appears to be popular opinion (!) I think they are a great idea. No I dont think the horse thinks its a real human but there is a school of thought which thinks that incremental training is a good idea and from that point of view a bulk on the saddle would be a reasonable half way between no rider and a real live breakable one!

As for being dangerous if not secured/unsecured properly and if used in incompetent hands, the same could be said for ANY piece of horse equipment.
Op the best pair of legs I saw recently was filled with old school surface, had an oval sewn into the waistband, and 5 clips on it, one for each ankle (i presume for roller d rings or secured down stirrups) one on the crotch, and one either side which looked like they would correspond with d rings on a saddle.

Dont think id want to spend £300 on a backing dummy when you could get handy with old clothes and a sewing machine in one day!

Having said that I wonder if there are any retired manequins on ebay who would like a new hobby? I bet theyd be better for habituating your horse to something tall above then, and wouls move more like something with a skeleton? Hmm might need their legs breaking and re setting though, or just use a top half attached to stuffed jods. Hmmmm I spy an opportunity!

 

[JanetGeorge]

No I dont think the horse thinks its a real human but there is a school of thought which thinks that incremental training is a good idea and from that point of view a bulk on the saddle would be a reasonable half way between no rider and a real live breakable one!

Of COURSE incremental training is not JUST a good idea - it's essential. That's why we start with:
1. Basic handling
2. Lunging and teaching voice commands (particularly WHOA!)
3. Lunging in roller - then bit (although still on the cavesson)
4. Introduce saddle.
5. Introduce rider on mounting block and teaching horse to STAND there while rider jumps up and down, then leans over, etc.
6. Then rider lying across saddle - first in halt, then in walk - rider can slip down very quickly and safely if horse gets tense.
7. Then the rider sitting up while horse led, then lunged.

And THEN rider goes off the lunge and starts teaching the finer points.

And hopefully - if it's all been done properly - this is what first day ridden off the lunge looks like (after 3 weeks incremental and patient training!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSGOAF2cRMc

We back around 30 horses a year and never use a dummy - the very odd horse DOES freak out with the rider on board at some stage - but the ones who HAVE done it (maybe 3 in the last 3 years) would NOT have been helped by a dummy!

 

[ozpoz]

Oh dear, some very scary suggestions here re. old mannequins etc.
I thought this 'dumb jockey' idea went out with the victorians...

Much, much safer for horse, rider and handler on the ground to go with Janet George's explanation of the tried and tested way of backing.
To my mind it's essential to be able to read the signs and stop before the young horse has had enough or becomes frightened ( hence leaning across first and being able to safely slide off) - a dummy can't do this - it is fixed.

I'd run a mile and take my young horse with me rather than stand and watch a dummy being fixed on

 

[mbequest]

I would like to point out that I have broken over 250 horses and have never used s dummy once. I was simply responding to the OP's question.

 

[Natch]

Jg, glad your methods work for you. I was merely trying to illustrate that a dummy is intended to part bridge between no rider and a human rider (and not imo replace any of your steps). Just as with the person who used a teddy, I think horses can be frightened by something/anything up there, not just a human.

I have seen horses backed successfully with and without one. Certainly one pony comes to mind who was fine with a human until it got to canter. long story as to the reason why (human error) but he was helped with the use of a dummy in a controlled manner.

 

[Vixen Van Debz]

Wow JG, I can't believe that's a breaker off the lunge for the first time! Her movement's gorgeous too - what a cracker you have there 80)

 

[JanetGeorge]

Jg, glad your methods work for you. I was merely trying to illustrate that a dummy is intended to part bridge between no rider and a human rider (and not imo replace any of your steps). Just as with the person who used a teddy, I think horses can be frightened by something/anything up there, not just a human.

But the problem WITH a dummy is that it can't come off quickly at the point where a horse is MOST likely to panic (the stage where rider leans over the saddle and is led around.) And the horse who is LIKELY to panic (and these fall into two categories - runners and buckers) will likely panic to the point where it goes through the manege fence! So you then have a horse who is still frightened - and possibly injured!

For the horse who is unlikely to panic - it's just a waste of time and effort!

Wow JG, I can't believe that's a breaker off the lunge for the first time! Her movement's gorgeous too - what a cracker you have there

She is a super little girl - not one of mine - but the owner is delighted with her progress! Owner had done some good handling and preparatory work with her before she came, which speeded up the process, and she is naturally very forward, which helps a lot - but she has done exceptionally well!

 

[nikkiportia]

I think I read in a book of Richard Maxwells recently.....

'If you have to use a dummy rider before breaking in your horse, then you are unlikely to be the right person for the job.'

And I agree with that and JG on this.
You don't need one

 

[eggs]

We've backed 9 of our youngsters in the last few years. We use very similar methods to JanetGeorge and never had a problem. Slight difference is that once the youngsters is happy lunging with a saddle we then lunge with the stirrups down before having the rider lean over from a mounting block.

Personally I don't like the idea of a dummy flopping about on top.

 

[intouch]

I think I read in a book of Richard Maxwells recently.....

'If you have to use a dummy rider before breaking in your horse, then you are unlikely to be the right person for the job.'

And I agree with that and JG on this.
You don't need one

I don't think it's a question of HAVING to use a dummy - it's just one of those things that a horse should be able to take in his stride. You don't just suddenly strap a weird thing on his back without preparing him - with the ball, ours are happy to stand while the ball is bounced all round, under and over before carrying it - they even enjoy pushing it. So if it becomes a bit unbalanced, the horse doesn't panic. The more things a horse is habituated to before - and after - backing, the more spook-proof it will be. And it's fun for both horse and handler!

 

[Brambridge04]

JanetGeorges methods are fab.

I had issues with my mare, tried dummy, horrific to bit etc, had all sorts of problems.

Janet kindly sent me a very long very detailed pm message, 2 actually. My mare is now a dream, it has taken time but she is a darling.

 

[ozpoz]

I don't have a problem with spook proofing, although personally I don't like it overdone - I dislike that 'shutdown' look in a horse and love to see the combination of trust and forwardness as demonstrated in JG's video of her youngster ( she IS lovely!)

I do wonder, though, if people advocating the use of dummies have ever seen a really panicked horse... and by the time you've strapped everything down it will be too late.

 

[JanetGeorge]

We use very similar methods to JanetGeorge and never had a problem. Slight difference is that once the youngsters is happy lunging with a saddle we then lunge with the stirrups down before having the rider lean over from a mounting block.

No difference - we lunge with stirrups up first, then down (although they usually fall down because we don't worry about fasteninmg them up.)

 

[CBFan]

Of COURSE incremental training is not JUST a good idea - it's essential. That's why we start with:
1. Basic handling
2. Lunging and teaching voice commands (particularly WHOA!)
3. Lunging in roller - then bit (although still on the cavesson)
4. Introduce saddle.
5. Introduce rider on mounting block and teaching horse to STAND there while rider jumps up and down, then leans over, etc.
6. Then rider lying across saddle - first in halt, then in walk - rider can slip down very quickly and safely if horse gets tense.
7. Then the rider sitting up while horse led, then lunged.

And THEN rider goes off the lunge and starts teaching the finer points.

And hopefully - if it's all been done properly - this is what first day ridden off the lunge looks like (after 3 weeks incremental and patient training!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSGOAF2cRMc

We back around 30 horses a year and never use a dummy - the very odd horse DOES freak out with the rider on board at some stage - but the ones who HAVE done it (maybe 3 in the last 3 years) would NOT have been helped by a dummy!

PHEW! I thought I was the only one!! I am backing a horse for the first time at the moment, basically following the above - and my common sense! and have never once felt the need for a dummy. If you take things at a sensible pace and listen to the horse then not a hell of a lot can go wrong. I have gone from leaning over to sitting on and being led around in the space of 5 sessions. It really isn't hard!

 

[Honey08]

I really don't see the need for a dummy rider while breaking in. If you've done enough groundwork before the getting on stage it really shouldn't be a big deal when you finally get on.

The only possible time when I could see that perhaps a dummy may be useful is on a very small pony that you don't have a small enough rider for.

 

[Laafet]

My horse was the bucking/bolting sort when released off the lunge. I doubt that a dummy would have helped as when I got our best rider from work (I worked in a pretraining/rehab yard where we broke in over 180 horses each year) he just stayed on longer and fell a lot harder than I did. Also mine was completely bombproof to everything apart from being free off the lunge. We got him to cope by riding and leading him with me on top until he relaxed.
I saw a dummy used once on a hot warmblood and it didn't do him any favours, the behaviour was still there under the surface at any time and they ended up having to ride him in tight draw reins as 3 year old. Not good.
If you are too frightened to do the laying over thing then you need someone experienced to do it.

 

[ridersince2002]

The last horse i helped with breaking in, we lunged her, i then leant across her bareback, the next weekend we did the same but with my sitting on her, almost lying on her neck, and slowly sat up. She happily walked around with me on her for 5 mins that day being led by someone

Helps that she was only 13.2hh We only did this a couple of times as we thought she was going to take a long time to back, as she was fairly insane, so we started early and were going to turn her out for a few months when we got to this stage- so we turned her out pretty much straight away, she was rising 3 at the time, but it felt extreemly natural to her, she was so relaxed! i have ridden a fair few horses bareback and can honestly say i felt safer on her than any other horse!

Edited to add: If your nervous about it, do you know any fearless teenagers that would lend themselves as dummies? Im the fearless teenager that normally gets roped in for it at the yards im helped at- i'll give anything go!

 

[intouch]

Deleted

 

[angelish]

ive made one..

thats just made me spit diet coke all over the comp
what is wrong with her back how often has she hit the deck bless her she don't look very well lol
sorry op i have no interest in here but love this dummy

 

[JoBird]

Thanks for your replies! Just wanted to clarify that actually I have broken in probably 10+ horses and written articles on the subject, however, I am older and a lot less brave now plus I know nothing about this particular horse's background (other than "it reared" when the owner got on it in the past!). We dont think it has actually ever been broken in despite being 9 as it was imported, history unknown.
This is the reason why I dont want to risk my life & limb (and leave my horses with no one able to care for them!) and wanted to start with a dummy.
I did used to use saddlebags full of lead/sand to add a little weight which were very safe as they were well fixed but thought a "dummy" might be better on this horse as she is spooky so I would like to get her used to seeing the figure behind her on her back.
Will take all your comments on board.