Dun or Buckskin?

[Meowy Catkin]

I prefer Red/chestnut Dun myself. It's such a delicate colour and I have a preference for ginger neddies anyway.

 

[FairyLights]

looks part fiord to me.

 

[showpony]

Lol, something else to ad into the mix am going to have him dna tested towards end of year so will find out for sure then.

looks part fiord to me.

 

[Penny Eater]

What about this horse? This is my friend's ID/TB
http://cacphotography.zenfolio.com/p597219059/h690ee1d0#h690ee1d0
http://cacphotography.zenfolio.com/p597219059/h659a73f8#h659a73f8

I don't really understand the difference between the two. This horse has a very faint dorsal stripe and his sandy hair goes into in mane and the top of his tail. A lot of people think he has Fjord in him but he's apparently just ID/TB Thanks

What has she done to the poor chap's mane?! Um, maybe that's why people think he has Fjord in him?!!

 

[Hippona]

Being of the over 50 generation we only had skewbald, piebald, dun, spotted, bay, chestnut etc etc. None of this tobiano, buckskin, "coloured". Life was so much simpler then.

Lol....how true

 

[albeg]

I've often wondered - as I've never seen a chestnut or chestnut based - connie, has the chestnut gene been bred out of the breed? If yes, the double dilutes (two copies of Cream) would have been perlinos.

Does anyone know?

I know a palomino Connemara, but can't think of any chestnuts at the moment.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

looks part fiord to me.

Lol, something else to ad into the mix am going to have him dna tested towards end of year so will find out for sure then.

I think the part fjord comment is relating to the horse in helenalberts's photos, not the horse in showpony's photos.

Showpony, let us know what the result is. I'm putting my 50p on the cream gene (buckskin).

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I know a palomino Connemara, but can't think of any chestnuts at the moment.

Well that's chestnut based, so they must have the chestnut gene. Thanks.

 

[doriangrey]

Well that's chestnut based, so they must have the chestnut gene. Thanks.

You can get them and the chestnut (along with palomino) is in the breed standard. You don't see them very often though. Shame they don't allow blue eyed cream. I saw some lovely examples when I was viewing.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The Connemara Breed Society's rules are illogical, but it's not the only one who needs to get up to date now we have better understanding of how the genes work.

The 'blue eyes creams' are double dilute for the cream gene (cremello, perlino and smoky cream), so perfect for breeding the desirable buckskin colour, as breeding a double dilute to a non-cream horse will always result in a single-cream foal (palomino, buckskin or smoky cream). Maybe they should have a separate register for double dilutes, to allow their foals to be fully registered connies?

If I was in charge, I'd just allow the double dilutes and lift the ban on the colour.

 

[Blanche]

Around 13 years ago someone I had once worked for leased a top ridden connie mare to use with one of her connie stallions . They were both grey (stallion born black by grey out of dark brown , mare no idea of colour at birth )14hh and had a foal together previously that was grey and matured to 14hh which was what the stallion owner was hoping for . She was to have two foals from the mare and send her home back in foal and she was hoping for 14hh grey fillies. What she got was a small bay filly who matured to 13hh and then a chestnut colt that matured to 15.2hh . The foal the mare was in foal with when she returned home was a grey filly that matured to 14hh . She was gutted but as we all said 'You buy what you want and breed what you get .'
The other stallion she had was registered as chestnut and didn't start greying out till he was 15 and when he was put down at 32 he still had chestnut ears .

 

[Love]

Faracat - we had an 8yo bright chestnut Connie come to our yard from Ireland earlier in the year. He was absolutely stunning!

I have a question about my Connie. He is now grey but when I first got him he was a much darker steel grey and had a dorsal stripe. My YO said he must have been dun, but if dun is not In the Connie breed it must be buckskin? So where had the dorsal stripe come from?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The dorsal stripe comes from having Sooty, which puts dark pigment on the coat.

ETA - thanks for all the info about chestnut connies.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Can someone try to explain the difference!!! - mini me's pony has a dorsal stripe which the new boy doesn't have so would that make him Buckskin?

Pic of my new boy below & a couple of my friends and myself are trying to figure out what colour he is

I've tried to explain what I know about the difference between Dun and Buckskin on another thread, so part of my reply is copied from my replies on that thread. To put it shortly, if your new boy doesn't have a dorsal stripe, then he can't be dun, because a dun always have a dorsal stripe. But buckskin horses can have markings that mimics the markings that people think equals a dun horse, so a dorsal stripe only means that the horse can be a dun, or a buckskin with something that looks like a dorsal stripe.

Personally I think that your horse looks like a buckskin, with some mimicking primitive markings on the ears.


The longer version about the difference between Dun and Buckskin (photos found through Google image search):

A dun carries the dun dilution gene.
A buckskin carries the cream dilution gene.
Both these genes are dominant, one parent must carry the gene for a horse to become dun or buckskin. But I've read that it is possible for a horse to carry both those genes = buckskin dun/dunskin?

The dun dilution gene is very dominant, it usually dilutes bay, chestnut and black base coat, even if the horse only inherits one copy of the dun gene.
The cream dilution gene is dominant, but if there is only one copy of this gene, it will only dilute bay and chestnut base coat, to dilute black base coat the gene must be doubled.

A dun always have a dorsal stripe, no stripe, not dun. The stripe is usually (on adult horses) well defined, have a clear colour, and is visible all the year around.
A buckskin can have something that looks like a dorsal stripe, but they doesn't have to have it.

A dun can have zebra striping on the legs and/or other primitive markings, but (besides the dorsal stripe) they doesn't have to have them.
A buckskin never (or rarely?) have "true" primitive markings, but they can have mimicking primitive markings that resembles the "true" ones.

A dun can have (white, light or black coloured) primitive markings on their ears, ear tips and ear rims, depending on where they have them, it can make it more likely that they're dun, but they doesn't have to have them.
A buckskin can have mimicking primitive markings on their ear rims, but they doesn't have to have them.

A dun often have a more dull body colour, but I've seen Fjord horses with very clear "yellow"/golden body colour, so they doesn't have to have a dull body colour.
A buckskin often have a more clear cream or golden body colour, but they doesn't have to have it, some have a smutty/sooty body colour.

A dun can have lighter coloured guard hairs at the base or outer edges of the tail, sometimes also on the edges of the mane, but they doesn't have to have them.
A buckskin never/rarely has lighter coloured guard hairs at the base/outer edges of either the tail or mane, but perhaps if they e.g. also carry a rabicano or sabino gene, it could happen that they have it?

A dun rarely have seasonal dappling, but they can have it (if they do, the seasonal dappling is caused by other colour genes that the horse also carries).
A buckskin is more likely to have seasonal dappling, especially if they're smutty/sooty, but they doesn't have to have it.



Examples of how most duns have a dorsal stripe that visibly continues down into the tail:

Whereas the stripe on most horses with a countershading dorsal stripe ends where a uniformly-coloured tail begins:

Purebred Fjord horses can only be dun coloured, because they will inherit one dun gene from the stallion and one dun gene from the mare, and since the dun gene is often dominant in only one copy, it says itself that unless some sort of rare mutation took place, as doubled it will definitely be dominant. So I think that Fjord horses are a good example of that not all dun horses have to have other primitive markings besides the dorsal stripe, without they can e.g. not have visible zebra stripes on their legs:

Buckskins can have something that mimics zebra striping on their legs, but then they are countershading leg stripes/dun-like leg barring, e.g. caused by a sooty gene:

Compared to some "true" zebra stripes on dun legs:

Drawing example of primitive markings (they've misspelt guard hairs in the tail):

Some more good photos with explanations can be found on this site grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.

 

[DressageCob]

What has she done to the poor chap's mane?! Um, maybe that's why people think he has Fjord in him?!!

Ha a little harsh His mane has always grown bolt upright so she hogs it. It was overdue a re-hog here