Dun or palomino sporthorse/WB stallions?

What colour is she trying to breed and what colour is the mare-it may be that she actually needs to use a cremello to bred dun or palomino
 
Of course! Legrande! Duh! How could I forget one of my absolute favourite stallions! Brain not working today!

I'm afraid I don't have any colour details about the mare, although I'm pretty sure she is actually either dun or palomino herself.

I think Legrande is technically buckskin, but that's much the same thing as dun, isn't it? Sorry, I am not a colour expert!

Decanter is another super boy - again, I should have thought of him myself!
 
I bred Holly ( liver chesnut) to the (no longer) stallion Dun to Order (Fergus the Bogeyman) and ended up with a very pretty palamino filly....Impossible I would have thought but it then turns out Dun to Order was actually Buckskin.........I think it was KarynK who was the colour expert!
 
LeGrande is stunning and has the most amazing movement plus he has a wonderful temperament.
He is Buckskin so has the dilute gene.
 
Cream (Buckskin, Palomino, Smoky Black, Cremello, Perlino, Smoky Cream) and Dun (Yellow Dun, Red Dun, Grullo) are two different dilution genes.
 
Yes two different genes Cream in single form gives you a 50% chance of inheriting the dilution, then depending on what coat colour the foal is you will get various shades as follows
Chestnut = Palomino
Bay = Yellow Buckskin
Brown = Dark Buckskin (Sometimes mistaken for brown)
Black = Black Buckskin or Smokey Black (often mistaken for black)

Single Cream has little effect on black hairs and you really have to look hard to see it.

Breed two single creams together and you get a 25% chance of producing a "double dilute" 2 Cream Genes which fades the coat more so you get the "blue eyed creams" which are hard to distinguish the base colour of so:
Chestnut= Cremello
Bay/Brown = Perlino
Black = Smokey Cream

Bred to a non cream these are guaranteed to produce a single dilute coat in the foal.

Dun does not double dilute the coat even if two genes are inherited and is easily distinguished by the so called "wild" markings that accompany it, like leg barring, dorsal stripe (though some creams have these), head shade darker than body, cobweb effect on the head etc.

The trouble is that we in the UK have always lumped Buckskins in with duns and thought that Buckskin was an Americanism! They were right we were wrong and still are ergo Fergus and the surprise express by the New Forest ponies when duns produce a double dilute foal, not allowed in their registry!!!
 
I can almost guarantee I'll get shot down in flames for this but how about McJonnas???? There have been some very nice babies by him this year - most recently a buckskin filly called Treacle. I've used him on my coloured mare, she's a full sister to Irco Llee and I'm hoping for a buckskin tobiano filly - we can live in hope! The last time I dared to mention him I was accused of being a troll.............
 
Ok all you colour experts. I have finally bitten the bullet and decided to put my mare in foal. I am going to use my YO stallion who is perlino tobiano. My mare is a very bright bay so what colour could I get????
Really sorry to hijack post!!!!!!!!!
 
Another one hijacking! Are there any value for money cremelos that are not overpriced due to their colour? I have seen some that dont have anywhere near the competition/performance record or offspring with stud fees that rival some of the top stallions. Would like a closed book, so TB, Trak, Arab, Anglo, with a good hind action.
 
Photo of a true Dun mare (BayDun), she is by a RedDun Appaloosa stallion out of a Bay Welsh Cob x TB mare.
00aaaKimMay10.JPG

08kim3yrsMay.JPG
 
berry said:
Ok all you colour experts. I have finally bitten the bullet and decided to put my mare in foal. I am going to use my YO stallion who is perlino tobiano. My mare is a very bright bay so what colour could I get????
Really sorry to hijack post!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

I think you would likely get a Buckskin tobiano if the horse was Homozygous for Tobiano if it is only Heterozygous tobiano then you would get a solid Buckskin.unless both the perlino and our mare carry chestnut if they met then you would have a 100% chance of Palomino and same tobiano chances either 50% or 100%.
best of Luck
 
berry said:
...stallion who is perlino tobiano. My mare is a very bright bay so what colour could I get????
Really sorry to hijack post!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Depends!! The only thing you are guaranteed is a single cream of some kind. There are ways of narrowing the possibilities, best way is genetic testing, with a stallion with a lot of foals you can rule out colours by looking at his offspring, or if you know the individuals in the immediate pedigree that can help.

If he is homozygous for Tobiano the you will get some colour but how much, thats a whole other complex question, if not you have a 50/50 chance of a coat pattern.

Basically if you have a Black, Bay or Brown, even a perlino, with a chestnut parent you know what it's base colour genes will be. A chestnut must have 2 chestnut genes in order to be chestnut so any black based horse with a chestnut parent will be based Black carrying Chestnut.

Then you have the Agouti series which gives you bay or brown or black and tan on a black based horse. This is more tricky to work out as chestnuts carry these genes with no known visible effect, so a chestnut could carry black, bay, brown or black and tan to pass on. Also certain additional coat colour genes will hide Agouti too.

The problem is with a double dilute Perlino you do not know what shade he is underneath. What you need to avoid is too much black in the coat as this will lessen the effect of the dilute so blacks and black and tans will show little yellow and may not be distinguishable from a normal black horse.

Cream turns the rediish hair on a bay, brown or black and tan yellow to give you a buckskin like Legrande (good choice BTW) or this little one
IMG_07532.jpg



but with more black in the coat you can get one like this NF mare and her double dilute foal!
IMG_0548-1.jpg


Or the more black the less colour like this
IMG_0752.jpg


Until you get a black buckskin like this
IMG_07512.jpg
 
:rolleyes:How did I manage to miss this thread, I blame foal watch, still three under cameras and still no babies, maybe tonight, but I have been saying that for the last 2 weeks :(

Thank you for your lovely comments regarding Legrande, he is truly a star :D plus I had the most exciting day today, as I rode him for the very first time ever (believe it or not) I have owned him for 6 years (from being a yearling) and I finally climbed aboard for a play today, I was not disappointed he was incredible. I didn't realise just how loose he was in the shoulder and how rhythmical his paces are. I asked him for some passage like trot and wow he just lifted me clean out the saddle. I am going to ache a lot tomorrow I think :rolleyes:

His first baby is a little stunner, I can't wait to see him in another 2 months to see how he develops. It looks like he has not only inherited daddies stunning looks but his movement too. I will take a video of him in the school and post on youtube so you can have a look.

His second baby should be on the ground soon (please, as I really would like some sleep) I will let you know when it has arrived.

Again thank you for your kind comments.
:D
 
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angrovestud said:
Wow KarynK I didnt realise they could be as dark as him the black buckskin is this a smoky black then?
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Yes they are often called smokey blacks, you can hardly tell until they produce a funny coloured foal! There was a "black" leopard stallion standing in Canada his owners could not understand where his palomino daughter came from !!!

So the darker the coat the less visible a single dilute is. Sometimes you can tell from the eye colour which is affected by the gene it will be a lighter brown almost Hazel, I think this might have something to do with if there are any reddish hairs around the eye but don't quote me on that, you can sort of see it on the very dark buckskin.
 
magic104 said:
Hi what is the difference between him & say a dark brown? Does this mean that dark browns/blacks have in some cases been mistakenly recorded as such?
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More than likely - My friend's Smokey Black (genetically tested) stallion was marked as being dark brown/black in his grading. They wouldn't believe he was a Smokey Black saying the isn't such a colour!!! Erm... how do you explain the palomino foals he's been producing then out of solid mares!!!

You can just about see some slightly lighter patches around his eyes but basically he looks like black

http://www.piceur.com/photography/gallery/091004/lawmensdiago/img_D041037A.html
 
Amelia27 said:
More than likely - My friend's Smokey Black (genetically tested) stallion was marked as being dark brown/black in his grading. They wouldn't believe he was a Smokey Black saying the isn't such a colour!!! Erm... how do you explain the palomino foals he's been producing then out of solid mares!!!

You can just about see some slightly lighter patches around his eyes but basically he looks like black

http://www.piceur.com/photography/gallery/091004/lawmensdiago/img_D041037A.html
Click to expand...
He is very nice! How is he bred Amelia27 ?
 
He's by Treliver Decanter out of a graded buckskin BWB mare. He's very lovely and so far all his foals that I have heard about have inherited the dilute gene, 2 palominos and 1 smokey black. Another due in a couple of weeks :D
 
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