Dun Registered Irish Draught Stallion

[Sagamoon]

Does anyone know of a dun registered irish draught stallion standing in Ireland?

 

[FrostKitten]

A quick look at the Irish Draught Stud Book shows; CLONEYHEA PADDY (IDC1) standing in Co. Tipperary. He's 17hh, 11yrs old.

https://www.horsesportireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/STBOOK20_ID.pdf (pg 13), there's another dun stud on pg 14 standing in the same location but he doesn't actually look Dun to me.

 

[blodwyn1]

I suspect they are red Duns.

 

[Kaylum]

Regalia Prince Arthur was dun. Sadly he is no longer with us. He was in Amercia but bred in the UK absolutely stunning. Our boy was his grand sire on his dams side. They are quite rare.

https://www.facebook.com/Fox-Hollow-Sport-Horses-61132019986/

 

[FrostKitten]

I suspect they are red Duns.

Yes, both seem to be Chestnut with Dun (Red Dun), but one doesn't seem to actually show the Dun. I'm not sure what colour you are looking to breed, but Red Dun is pretty universal if you wanted to go Black, Red or Bay-based - but obviously a chance you get a colour you do not want.

 

[Cloball]

Dun is dominant so you should be able to see some dun features in a heterozygous horse although it can be difficult to see if the pictures aren't great or the horse is clipped out. Cloneyhea paddy appears to have both red and bay dun foals on the ground and his sire Arthur's Gold looks red dun phenotypically to me. I am not convinced by the other stallion or by his foal pics.

I wonder if it is true dun though or nd1 as this would fit the phenotype as well. Does anyone know if they are tested?

Interesting as I did not know dun was in IDs. It would be fascinating to know what was underneath all those registered as grey.

 

[windand rain]

Met a palomino one not so long ago his Irish owner was adamant he was registered RID but other breeders have told me they dont have the cream gene

 

[Cloball]

They seem to share Cork Arthur.
@windandrain these guys seem to have true dun or Nd1 rather than cream/buckskin "Duns".

 

[FrostKitten]

Dun is dominant so you should be able to see some dun features in a heterozygous horse although it can be difficult to see if the pictures aren't great or the horse is clipped out. Cloneyhea paddy appears to have both red and bay dun foals on the ground and his sire Arthur's Gold looks red dun phenotypically to me. I am not convinced by the other stallion or by his foal pics.

I wonder if it is true dun though or nd1 as this would fit the phenotype as well. Does anyone know if they are tested?

Interesting as I did not know dun was in IDs. It would be fascinating to know what was underneath all those registered as grey.

Dun is dominant but I've seen horses that are labelled as dun that do not seem to have any visible markings, and as far as I am aware a horse with nd1 would not be registered as Dun but would display similar markings.

I do not believe that Dun occurs naturally in the breed, it would have to come from breeding to a sports horse perhaps with some Connemara or TB bloodlines further back in the pedigree.

Messed up the quote, but the below is in response to @windand rain

It doesn't occur naturally no, but RID's can have some sports horse blood in their history, so it's possible a breeder has intentionally bred this into their Sports Horse and then back to an ID to produce a Cream diluted RID, but the horse would still have to conform to the breed type to get RID vs. being registered as an Irish Draught.

 

[FrostKitten]

I'd also love to add that I wish the breed registries for Irish Draught would add a requirement to make better notes of the colours of the horses registered to be able to note the genetics a horse has without DNA testing, as for example, a Roan horse does not have the base colour listed, so in the case of Mares unless you have seen or know of her you don't know if she is Black, Bay, Chestnut underneath that roan.

Then you have Liver Chestnuts like my mare (see profile) who is just registered as Chestnut and her dam is registered as Roan, but I would love to know more about her Dam's colour as you wouldn't know my horse wasn't Bay unless you looked at her legs (she looks wild bay) and in Irish Draught as a breed so many of the horses are Grey and would be registered as such so it further confuses people who want to know more about the colour genetics.

 

[Cloball]

I could image if a horse had dun markings and wasn't tested or the person registering was not aware of nd1 they might mistakenly be registered incorrectly as dun. If they are registered as dun with no markings that has to be mistake surely?

Adding the base colour to roans would be helpful and the base colour of greys. I have seen greys registered as roan but it's hard to tell if they are true roan or just greying out and incorrectly registered.

 

[FrostKitten]

I could image if a horse had dun markings and wasn't tested or the person registering was not aware of nd1 they might mistakenly be registered incorrectly as dun. If they are registered as dun with no markings that has to be mistake surely?

Adding the base colour to roans would be helpful and the base colour of greys. I have seen greys registered as roan but it's hard to tell if they are true roan or just greying out and incorrectly registered.

It's quite possible, but nd1 should be fairly unusual in ID's at least as the Dun is bred in from breeds known to have the Dun dilution, but there's the possibility some nd1 made it in too with all of the outcrossing.

The second stud I posted is registered Dun but has no markings. However, his coat does have a small amount of dilution typical of Dun as he is still red and hasn't diluted to a more creamy colour typical of Palominos.

I've seen quite a few comments only about this grey vs. roan debate recently, it seems to be a huge bugbear for breeders who can't tell if horses are greying out or roaning out.

 

[Cloball]

I suppose the only answer is to DNA test more. Quite a lot of odd colours can hide when you predominantly breed for grey as with the PREs.