dutch gag bits and flash

[lifewithflash]

im trying to learn what bit goes with which noseband.
so for example, a Pelham shouldn't be used with a flash from what I've seen people say.
but im curious if a dutch gag should be paired with a flash.

 

[Lois Lame]

I personally don't think so, but I am not a fan of gag bits.

 

[adamntitch]

Not a fan of flash nose bands but every one seems to be

 

[rabatsa]

Bits with curb chains should not be paired with a flash or drop noseband. Otherwise strap your horses mouth shut however you wish.

 

[Kaylum]

Dutch gags are pretty useless without a curb strap, but nobody seems to use one.

 

[sbloom]

Flash nosebands are a flawed design, and why would we want to strap a horse's mouth shut anyway....it's one way the horse expresses pain, discomfort, confusion. I know it's not what you asked, apologies, but it needs stating every now and again.

See the Sue Dyson Pain Ethogram.

 

[Rowreach]

Well the problem is when people misuse or poorly fit any piece of equipment and/or don't understand what it's for or why they are using it on a particular horse. No noseband is actually intended to "strap a horse's mouth shut", but many people use them like that.

I'm having issues with people using "ergonomically designed" tack at the moment. It doesn't matter what it says on the label, if it doesn't fit it isn't going to be comfortable for the horse, and you'd be better off with a properly fitting traditionally designed piece of tack.

I detest Dutch gags, but agree with Kaylum that a curb strap works well with them. I spent a lot of time out hunting in the 90s rescuing children on out of control ponies wearing Dutch gags (abandoned by their parents) and removing their flash straps and putting them back on as curb straps.

 

[sbloom]

But the flash IS poorly designed. It was to give some of the function of a dropped noseband but allow a standing martingale to be used. In most cases the cavesson has to be quite tight for the flash strap to not pull it down, never good, and that's without getting into whether it's anywhere near as good as a drop, or whether we should even use a drop.

 

[Rowreach]

But the flash IS poorly designed. It was to give some of the function of a dropped noseband but allow a standing martingale to be used. In most cases the cavesson has to be quite tight for the flash strap to not pull it down, never good, and that's without getting into whether it's anywhere near as good as a drop, or whether we should even use a drop.

Well I agree that it's a poor design, but the flash strap only pulls the cavesson down if it's too tight. If it's loose (ie properly fitted) then the cavesson can be loose too. But people fit the cavesson too low, too tight, and the flash strap too tight, and then restrict the breathing/swallowing/jaw movement/relaxation of the horse. And if you are one of several top eventers, you then add a nasal strip to, um, help the horse breathe ...

 

[sbloom]

A loose flash strap, loose enough to not pull on the cavesson (which of course will also pull on the poll, as does having it too tight) won't do much anyway....otherwise agreed!

 

[Rowreach]

A loose flash strap, loose enough to not pull on the cavesson (which of course will also pull on the poll, as does having it too tight) won't do much anyway....otherwise agreed!

It's exactly how it should be fitted. It's purpose is not to "keep the mouth shut", it's to "prevent the mouth opening beyond the point of control", and there's a fundamental difference there. I always liked using them on young horses just for the security of knowing that in the event of an early days potential crisis moment I could avoid something bad happening, reset, and on we go. If there's no crisis moment, the horse isn't restricted in any way.

Just the same as a properly fitted martingale, it does nothing until and unless you need it to (with the caveat that the rings on a running martingale will add a little weight onto the reins).

Whether anyone likes or uses any bit of equipment matters not, it's fitting and using it correctly that does matter.

 

[reynold]

How ever did we manage in the 60s with mainly just eggbutt or loose ring snaffles, kimblewicks (ugh), pelhams (with 2 reins), traditional gags and double bridles? Mainly just drop or cavesson nosebands as well.

There is too much choice these days which adds to the confusion, particularly with newer horse owners.

There is also the issue with 'following the fashion' of whatever prominent rider is stuffing in it's horse's gob. I remember when everyone and his dog was using a German Bitless due to Eddie Macken and Boomerang.

Then in the noughties there was the horrendous Mikmar made popular by showjumpers.

It's not just social licence in regard to horse welfare and deaths, there is also a responsibility on the pros to realise that lesser riders will copy what they put on their horses. Drop nosebands became the 'thing' because they were seen being used by the pros. Then the issue was made worse by bridle manufacturers making virtually all bridles with flash nosebands and it becoming nearly impossible to get a bridle without one.

I do feel very sorry for a lot of horses I see at shows in all disciplines.

 

[lifewithflash]

How ever did we manage in the 60s with mainly just eggbutt or loose ring snaffles, kimblewicks (ugh), pelhams (with 2 reins), traditional gags and double bridles? Mainly just drop or cavesson nosebands as well.

There is too much choice these days which adds to the confusion, particularly with newer horse owners.

There is also the issue with 'following the fashion' of whatever prominent rider is stuffing in it's horse's gob. I remember when everyone and his dog was using a German Bitless due to Eddie Macken and Boomerang.

Then in the noughties there was the horrendous Mikmar made popular by showjumpers.

It's not just social licence in regard to horse welfare and deaths, there is also a responsibility on the pros to realise that lesser riders will copy what they put on their horses. Drop nosebands became the 'thing' because they were seen being used by the pros. Then the issue was made worse by bridle manufacturers making virtually all bridles with flash nosebands and it becoming nearly impossible to get a bridle without one.

I do feel very sorry for a lot of horses I see at shows in all disciplines.

I used to want to use a grackle cos I thought it looked "pretty". I also wanted to use a dutch gag cos If I had a strong and "naughty" horse i that was cool. she was not happy and honestly got so much more stronger.

Realised that was wrong and now only use a eggbutt snaffle with no noseband for hacks and no bridle if im in an enclosed field.

I see so many people, kids especially, like that cos they think its cool and amazing to have a strong, stressed horse and use equipment for the aesthetic.

 

[Wishfilly]

I used to want to use a grackle cos I thought it looked "pretty". I also wanted to use a dutch gag cos If I had a strong and "naughty" horse i that was cool. she was not happy and honestly got so much more stronger.

Realised that was wrong and now only use a eggbutt snaffle with no noseband for hacks and no bridle if im in an enclosed field.

I see so many people, kids especially, like that cos they think its cool and amazing to have a strong, stressed horse and use equipment for the aesthetic.

To be fair, I'm sure I've seen evidence that a properly fitting grackle actually causes less pressure points than a standard cavesson? I accept it's probably not an improvement on no noseband at all, though.

I have a micklem bridle now though, I know not everyone likes them, but it seems to work well for my pony, and helps keep the bit (loose ring single joint snaffle) stable in his mouth.

When I was younger, a 5 point breastplate was popular for the aesthetic, but at least that hopefully didn't cause discomfort! I'd really hope no-one bits up for fashion, but I'm sure it happens.

 

[ycbm]

When I was younger, a 5 point breastplate was popular for the aesthetic, but at least that hopefully didn't cause discomfort

Sorry! I believe it has indeed been proved by biometric testing that 5 point breastplates are very restrictive.

 

[Wishfilly]

Sorry! I believe it has indeed been proved by biometric testing that 5 point breastplates are very restrictive.

No that's good to know! Tbf, I never had one, just knew people who did.

I do ride in a "normal" breastplate all the time- I will admit it's very much my comfort blanket having something to grab there! Are they okay, or still too restrictive?

 

[SEL]

No that's good to know! Tbf, I never had one, just knew people who did.

I do ride in a "normal" breastplate all the time- I will admit it's very much my comfort blanket having something to grab there! Are they okay, or still too restrictive?

Still restrictive!

Neck strap instead!

 

[Wishfilly]

Still restrictive!

Neck strap instead!

For clarity, I use a running martingale regardless (which I suppose is restrictive too, but only if his head shoots up before a spook), does it really make such a huge difference being attached to the saddle?

Does anyone have some links on this- all the ones I've found on restrictive breastplates seem to be someone selling an alternative product, which makes me somewhat sceptical? (I'm aware the micklem is a bit like this too but I didn't have any sort of attachment to conventional bridles)

We're not doing anything high level, mostly happy hacking, schooling once a week, tiny trip hazard height jumps maybe once a month?

Obviously, I would change something that's causing a specific issue/pain but breastplates have been my comfort blanket when riding for a very long time so I am somewhat reluctant to change. And yes, I should just get on with it, I know, but I also know it's something that if I change it will make me super tense.

I will keep looking for something that says more than "this is restrictive, buy our product instead".

 

[SEL]

The research was done on show jumpers and mainly looked at pressure points over a fence - but most horses will brace against them. Faster work especially.

My youngster came to me with that under neck muscle already showing signs of over development due to a breast plate. Ditched it on day 1 and the muscle soon shrunk.

There are better brands I believe if you're worried about the saddle slipping back, but if I need a neck strap on I'm using an old stirrup leather!

 

[McGrools]

I’ve never owned a breastplate, too many extra buckles, I can’t be bothered to fiddle with.
I agree old stirrup leather as a neck strap if you want security of something to grab onto. Well fitting Saddles shouldn’t slip back unless we are talking racing or some extremely fast and high level xc.
More of a risk is slipping sideways on a barrel shaped pony with an unbalanced rider.