Dutch gag, confusion

[sorona]

My horse goes nicely on the 1st ring (not the snaffle one) of a dutch gag. He can get a bit heavy in my hands at times, especially in certain company or out hunting.
I was lead to believe a gag was good for horses that put their heads down to grab control and it is used to lift the head but after reading a post on the picture forum it appears i have got it all wrong and it is for bringing a horses head down. It does seem to work for me when i need it but perhaps there is a more suitable bit that I could try!
He does not have a high head carriage at all, unless something has spooked him, he carries himself reasonably nicely and his neck isnt built up in the wrong way at all but he will plunge his head to snatch the reins. He is just ridden in a cavesson and a snaffle mouthed continental gag when needed and a happy mouth baulcher or snaffle fulmer otherwise!

 

[MillionDollar]

A Dutch Gag puts pressure on the poll making the horse put its head down. It should be used with 2 reains, one on the snaffle bit the other on either of the lower holes. Or you can use roundings. This gives a clearer signal to the horse.

But if you want a good suggestion i now use the Myler High Wide ported comfort snaffle with hooks! Its fantastic, i can't recommend it more, it works on pressure on the poll, and it doesn't put pressure on the tongue both my horses go so well in it!

 

[MillionDollar]

Here is the bit i've got-

Myler Bit

 

[Irishcobs]

What does it mean hooks?

 

[MillionDollar]

They are small slots where the cheek piece attaches and then the bottom one where the rein attaches. It sounds horrible doesn't it, lol.

Here you go-

 

[PapaFrita]

Strictly speaking, a dutch gag should be used with 2 reins but also a curb strap which will make it much more effective. Having said that, Antifaz hates curbs so I ride him without. Awkward, aren't i?

 

[DollyPentreath]

[ QUOTE ]
A Dutch Gag puts pressure on the poll making the horse put its head down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a common misconception (and a real bugbear of mine..

) as a gag has a lifting action and is particularly good for horses that have a tendency to be a bit heavy on the forehand and need to be a little more on their hocks. A gag was very popular with show jumpers a few years ago too for this reason. Take a look at the link.. Gag Definition

 

[MillionDollar]

ummm thats so confusing, i've got a book thats says the complete opposite! Argh, why are horses and all this different tack so confusing! lol.
TBH though i really don't see how it has a lifting action, but there you go. Coz when the pressure is applied my pony puts her head down not up as shes trying to get away from the pressure.

 

[rosita]

Gags have a nutcracker action on the horses head, the combined pressure on the poll and mouth cause the horse to raise its head. In polo it is used to drop the horse back on to it's hocks to stop and turn. A horse that has a high head carriage is usually played in a pelham.

 

[DollyPentreath]

Confusing I know.. There is a difference between the head being on the vertical and the position of the neck or cervical vertebrae (Which will inherently affect the spine and shoulder.) If you watch a gag in action the bit lifts in the mouth when pressure is applied; hence the lifting action. Effectively the head is squeezed (yuk...) at the poll and the mouth. A gag should really be used with a curb to produce this 'ears up' outline. Being on the vertical occurs due the head squeezing action. That is the reason why I hate the term snaffle gag and that gags are not permitted in dressage; a gag will not encourage a long and low outline and generally a horse will not work through its back particularly well.

However, I show jump and XC my event horse in a dutch gag on the second hole, one rein, no roundings and no curb.. Ho hum..

 

[MillionDollar]

Ahhhhh i see, very interesting, well you learn something new everyday.

And don't worry my pony in the Dutch Gag only has one rein, but she does go best in this, i've used so many bits on her, lol. But she does jump better in a Kimblewick.

 

[flyingfeet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A Dutch Gag puts pressure on the poll making the horse put its head down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a common misconception (and a real bugbear of mine..

) as a gag has a lifting action and is particularly good for horses that have a tendency to be a bit heavy on the forehand and need to be a little more on their hocks. A gag was very popular with show jumpers a few years ago too for this reason. Take a look at the link.. Gag Definition

[/ QUOTE ]
Shaab sorry you are wrong here
Yes your glossary refers to a "Running gag", this need either nylon or leather running cheeks and does indeed lift the head.

However the American and Continental (dutch) gags are not actually gags at all in the true sense and use poll pressure and tend to lower rather than raise the head as the gag action is only around 2" of leverage

 

[MillionDollar]

OMG yeh you're completely right, i didn't look at the link!

I didn't think a Dutch gag made a horse put its head up, it doesn't with mine anyway! I can understand why it does for a running gag though.

Well thats sorted out the confusion, thanks!

 

[sorona]

I'm confused even more now, lol!!

No wonder we are all confused with so many conflicting articles and websites about it!

 

[Weezy]

If you have a horse who is on his forehand (think big cob for example) a cheltenham gag will, usually, not rectify the prob and can pull it even more so front heavy - like most things, there is a rule, and rules are made to be broken and horses tend to break EVERY rule!

 

[Tia]

Both are correct to be honest. A Dutch gag actually has leverage aswell as action which will raise the head. This is because of the rings on this bit. When the reins are used on a lower ring then all rings have a totally separate action.

If your reins are connected only to the lowest ring then when you pull the reins the cheekpiece ring moves forward and drags the bridle downwards. This is your poll pressure and it is this which encourages him to lower his head.

However because the mouthpiece is on a separate sliding ring, once the mouthpiece reaches the end of it's sliding action and hits the cheekpiece ring this will make the horse lift his head.

Bit of a stupid bit to my mind, to be perfectly honest. It is passing on totally conflicting messages, or rather should I say demands on the horse. The only way this bit makes any sense to me is to use it as a loose-ring snaffle or fitted correctly with 2 reins.

 

[Tia]

If your horse is only lowering his head then you must be a fairly sensitive and light-handed rider (the very best sort to be using a bit like this). The reason for this is that if you are light-handed then only poll pressure comes into effect when the cheekpiece ring moves forward and lowers the head. It is only when the reins are pulled back harshly that the bit ring hits the cheekpiece ring thus creating the secondary action which means forcing the horse to raise his head.

The action of bits like these are quite easy to grasp if you have an understanding of western bits as it is these bits that they are based upon. These sorts of bits were never intended to be used as "contact" bits; only on horses whose response is sensitive to leg aids with the bare minimum of pressure on the reins which should really only to be used as a back-up should the leg aids not be responded to.

 

[WelshRareBit]

http://www.horsebit.com/choosing.htm

The gag is so confusing a lot of people say it brings the head down - but there's this on a bitting website (link above)

GAG
to raise the horse's head by use of the roof and upper bars. Should be used on two reins, so that the snaffle action can be used for the general riding and only when necessary the correctional gag rein can raise the horse's head.

I use a gag sometimes - but it does tend to sometimes raise sometimes lower Murphy's head if that makes sense - I feel it is quite a conflicting bit - though not without its uses!! xx

 

[PapaFrita]

There are many different types of gag though, and the dutch gag (or 3-ring/bubble gag) isn't really a true gag, precisely because it doesn't have the same lifting action as, say, a cheltenham gag.

 

[WelshRareBit]

Thats the problem isnt it? There's not set idea about it anywhere - I think that is why people get into arguments about it - is cause no-ones right cos there is no right answer!!

 

[PapaFrita]

LOL! Yep, it does cause a bit of controversy, doesn't it?

 

[Tia]

Oh dear. And I thought I had explained how a Dutch Gag works in a fair amount of depth, obviously not.

Oh well long may the myths continue.

 

[flyingfeet]

I'm voting to rename the dutch/continental/bubble gags and American gags to something else

They are not gags as you've explained... Still like the UK tom thumb, we are not that good at naming bits!!!

 

[Tia]

LOL!! Yes I remember my confusion when someone on here was talking about a Tom Thumb......now't like ours over here (where they originated from I believe?).

Maybe the Dutch Gag should be renamed a Sliding Multi-Ring Snaffle?

 

[racingdemon]

i was always told when i was younger at PC, that they were called continental snaffles, and were NOT gags of any shape size or breed, i personally think they are a stupid bit and horses previously ridden in them (in my experience) go much better in a different variation of a snaffle, or a proper set of brakes if needed.... strangly it is the MOST popular bit i see, (& i have never used one....although i've removed plenty & swapped them!! have a selection in my tack room!)

 

[Tia]

Well I have a similar bit but it has a chain mouthpiece and uses a leather curb and it is one of the most favoured bits with all the horses........however this is for western riding and not for English "contact" riding. There's no way I would be yanking back on this bit as it has the potential to crucify a horse used incorrectly.

P.S. Only meeeee is allowed to use this bit on my horses, everyone else gets a hanging cheek french link.

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
They are not gags as you've explained... Still like the UK tom thumb, we are not that good at naming bits!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, interesting! Are the ones on your website the UK ones or american ones? Thanks

 

[flyingfeet]

UK - as they have bigger snaffle rings along the shank and ours are double jointed and not a single joint, like a US Tom Thumb would normally be.

We now even have our own lozenged version in 6" and universal gags - another misnomer as they are just prettier 3 ring gags (continenatal / dutch / bubble) so not a gag. Any naming suggestions?

 

[PapaFrita]

Nope, no naming suggestions, BUT as if things weren't simple *ahem* enough, in Argentina, the 3-ring/dutch, etc is called a Pessoa...

 

[flyingfeet]

Actually we flog them on ebay under the name pessoa gag, as most of the international horsey community know them as that.

The 3 ring gag is also called Vienna by Sprenger, and Universal (in a slightly different format by Neue Schule)