Dutch gag on the bottom ring with one rein

Michen

Michen

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I know it's wrong and incorrect and they should be used with two reins. But for various reasons I hunted B on the bottom ring with one rein (to be honest I was focusing on surviving and he can be incredibly strong when he puts his mind to it, I'd forgotten my martingale and I just didn't want the hassle of two reins).

We JUST about had brakes. Just... Especially helped by bridging the reins.

The gag is a single jointed bit and he seems ok in it, he doesn't particularly like the fact that he can't then bomb off as fast as his little legs can go but I do!

Question is, I'm happy now to take him with two reins but is there any point when I know I won't be riding him on the snaffle ring at all? There were no moments (bar resting where he had a long rein anyway) where I didn't fully appreciate having that bottom ring. I guess it would be nice to have a little more brakes as well, would I achieve this by adding a leather strap?

I am useless with bitting!
 
The Snaffle rein would help with steering, this bit can be unhelpful with steering at the best of times and using only the bottom for this is very difficult, I know with mine when she goes she goes so being able to turn her away is what saves us, particularly into fences.

A back strap would be beneficial I would think as it would act similar to a curb and help stop the bit flipping, this would also help stop the head being raised as it would encourage poll pressure.

ETA; I would also agree with below, if you are not opposed to such, that is what my cob is ridden in full time.
 
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Have you thought about trying a Pelham? I'm no expert but I always find natives prefer Pelhams - I'm sure many people will tell me otherwise, but from personal experience they do :)
 
They are not a bit I like and find it strange that they are so popular, if he was still strong and pulling then a back strap may help, my go to bit for strong horses would be a mullen mouth pelham, provided you are happy using two reins, you should find it more effective and it may help you get him lighter in your hand, with the DG they either seem to continue to pull or drop behind it completely neither are ideal for making a well mannered hunter.
Pleased you had a good day and the weather was lovely if a bit chilly.

Cross posted with Tiarella it seems we were both thinking the same.
 
Hadn't thought about a Pelham. I only really went for the gag as my friend has one she lent me and his owner suggested it. I've been using it for canter work when with other horses on the second to last ring as he gets very strong then as well and it worked well but it wasn't quite as successful even on the bottom for hunting.

I thought I remembered that gags were good for lowering heads, and Basil is great at sticking his head in the air like a giraffe and tanking off. So I felt a bit sick when I realised I was without a martingale!

Will have a look into the Pelhams, thank you xx


be positive said:
They are not a bit I like and find it strange that they are so popular, if he was still strong and pulling then a back strap may help, my go to bit for strong horses would be a mullen mouth pelham, provided you are happy using two reins, you should find it more effective and it may help you get him lighter in your hand, with the DG they either seem to continue to pull or drop behind it completely neither are ideal for making a well mannered hunter.
Pleased you had a good day and the weather was lovely if a bit chilly.

Cross posted with Tiarella it seems we were both thinking the same.
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In the scenario you describe no I wouldn't have a problem with single rein on bottom hole. I don't really like dutch gags at all - to me they give mixed signals - the single joint in the bit gives a head raising signal while the reins on the lower rings are leverage to lower poll so 1 bit telling horse to do two different things (IMO anyway)

As others have said though I'd be tempted to try a Pelham or Kimblewick with a ported rather than jointed mouthpiece.
 
If you're looking to use a curb and Dutch gag then I would be swapping to a French link or lozenge mouthpiece to start with.

In what way is he strong? If he's going on the forehand you're going to want the least amount of poll pressure possible. If he's tossing his head up and running behind the bit then you need something that's going to encourage a lower head; a nutcracker action (single-joint) won't do that.
 
He sticks his head in the air like a giraffe, tongue out and just goes.

SpringArising said:
If you're looking to use a curb and Dutch gag then I would be swapping to a French link or lozenge mouthpiece to start with.

In what way is he strong? If he's going on the forehand you're going to want the least amount of poll pressure possible. If he's tossing his head up and running behind the bit then you need something that's going to encourage a lower head; a nutcracker action (single-joint) won't do that.
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The problem you may have is when he gets frustrated from the poll pressure, he could learn that bucking is a good escape plan.
If he is still strong you should try a different mouth piece.
A french link or lozenge.
Is he grabbing the bit and holding it?
 
Michen said:
He sticks his head in the air like a giraffe, tongue out and just goes.
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In that case I'd try a French-link or Mullen mouth Pelham to start with, which will lay across the horse's tongue and not irritate the roof of his mouth. The problem with using a single joint on a horse who has a high head carriage is that as you apply pressure (pull), the bit wraps around the bars of the mouth, pushing the joint into the horse's soft palate. If you then add the action of a martingale, it's too confusing and sends mixed signals.
 
Mine is incredibly strong and the ONLY (seriously, I must have tried about 50, with no exaggeration) bit that works for us is a Waterford Dutch gag with two reins. I don't hunt but thought fun rides and XC would be impossible until I tried it. I'm very aware of the Waterford being a very strong mouthpiece so ride on the snaffle rein most of the time and tie the curb rein in a knot. Rather than fight with him when he starts, I just grab the curb rein when I need some emergency brakes. I think it works as it gives him a short sharp shock rather than leaning on it and becoming immune to it, like he did with the Pelham. He'll also do a near perfect dressage test in it - in terms of submission and obedience at least, but I only use when I really need it so never in the school!

I was wary of the Waterford, but he has a huge tongue hates a jointed bit. The mullen mouth version just didn't cut it. He seems to like the flexibility of the mouthpiece and I like still being alive so it's a win-win.
 
smellsofhorse said:
The problem you may have is when he gets frustrated from the poll pressure, he could learn that bucking is a good escape plan.
If he is still strong you should try a different mouth piece.
A french link or lozenge.
Is he grabbing the bit and holding it?
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I wasn't sure about the mouth piece, I know the nutcracker action of a single joint is a bit unpleasant so I half wondered whether a French link would make it less severe and he would be able to tank off more?

He does grab the bit yes. He's quite a determined little fella!
 
SpringArising said:
In that case I'd try a French-link or Mullen mouth Pelham to start with, which will lay across the horse's tongue and not irritate the roof of his mouth. The problem with using a single joint on a horse who has a high head carriage is that as you apply pressure (pull), the bit wraps around the bars of the mouth, pushing the joint into the horse's soft palate. If you then add the action of a martingale, it's too confusing and sends mixed signals.
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Ah ok. But... Will he be less respectful of a French link?
 
I did consider a Waterford... I'm just a bit wary of not having experienced enough hands for it!


annagain said:
Mine is incredibly strong and the ONLY (seriously, I must have tried about 50, with no exaggeration) bit that works for us is a Waterford Dutch gag with two reins. I don't hunt but thought fun rides and XC would be impossible until I tried it. I'm very aware of the Waterford being a very strong mouthpiece so ride on the snaffle rein most of the time and tie the curb rein in a knot. Rather than fight with him when he starts, I just grab the curb rein when I need some emergency brakes. I think it works as it gives him a short sharp shock rather than leaning on it and becoming immune to it, like he did with the Pelham. He'll also do a near perfect dressage test in it - in terms of submission and obedience at least, but I only use when I really need it so never in the school!

I was wary of the Waterford, but he has a huge tongue hates a jointed bit. The mullen mouth version just didn't cut it. He seems to like the flexibility of the mouthpiece and I like still being alive so it's a win-win.
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Have you a curb strap on the gag?

That will stop it over rotating so that you just get immense poll pressure and little mouth pressure. I use on on F ;) All the time as I prefer to spread the applied pressure anyway. Also use a single joint because that is what he is happiest in whatever the rest of the bit.

He leans on a pelham (mullen), and not fun in a waterford the one time I hunted with it!
 
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Michen said:
I did consider a Waterford... I'm just a bit wary of not having experienced enough hands for it!
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I think being aware of this means you have! Having had a strong, bolshy Sec D from the age of 13 through to 27 I've always been aware that maybe I ride too strongly with my hands. This is half the reason I chose the Waterford, thinking a sharp pull on a stronger bit was better than a constant fight and knowing the Waterford is there means I'm very conscious NOT to pull unless I really need to. For the first time ever a few weeks ago I was told (by a 4* eventer no less ;)) I had very good hands and by another instructor that I was being too polite with my hands and need to keep a more consistent contact! I think riding in the Waterford has made me far more aware of my hands and improved them.
 
Michen said:
Ah ok. But... Will he be less respectful of a French link?
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Not necessarily. You'll find that the more comfortable in the mouth he is, the less he'll try to evade (sticking head up, opening mouth etc.), thus actually allowing the bit to then do its job.

Some horses actually respond better to less severe bits, it's just about what works for them really. As an example, I bought my mare with a Waterford snaffle which is definitely not a sympathetic bit and used predominately for horses who take a hold and go. I hate them (another debate for another time :p) and after giving it a go for a week or so I ditched it for a French-link snaffle. She instantly stopped fussing her head and running behind the bit. She was also 10x easier to stop because she wasn't trying to evade my contact.
 
Mine came with a dutch gag with one rein on the bottom. She was similar in that she'd throw her head up and try to tank off at every opportunity. So i got her a french link universal; i discovered that she didn't like the single jointed action, must have been touching the roof of her mouth. She's much happier now and never throws her head up since the change. The universal also has an extra ring under the main one if you need extra control.
 
I would try a kimblewick or a Pelham with two reins.

I would not school / do the canter work in the gag, you need him to respect a lighter hand and while it will appear easier to collect him up its a false feeling.

I use a kimblewick to remind my cobs of manners now and again if necessary and for xc. Now I usually school in it the day before a xc and yes they feel lovely to ride in it but ultimately I feel I want to improve the way of going not have to rely on stronger and stronger bits so everything else is done in a snaffle.
 
He is never schooled in a gag. He is schooled in a loose ring NS verbindend

C
FfionWinnie said:
I would try a kimblewick or a Pelham with two reins.

I would not school / do the canter work in the gag, you need him to respect a lighter hand and while it will appear easier to collect him up its a false feeling.

I use a kimblewick to remind my cobs of manners now and again if necessary and for xc. Now I usually school in it the day before a xc and yes they feel lovely to ride in it but ultimately I feel I want to improve the way of going not have to rely on stronger and stronger bits so everything else is done in a snaffle.
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Michen said:
He is never schooled in a gag. He is schooled in a loose ring NS verbindend

C
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I find that my incredibly strong Draft horse responds well to the NS Universal (Tranz mouthpiece) with 2 reins and a curb strap. Our curb is actually a cat collar, as her head is so big that the strap which came with the bit is too short. She came with a Dutch gag and one rein but finds this far more comfortable and I am much happier to use it. She also schools quietly in the NS Verbindend.
 
Had a chat with NS earlier and she suggested the Waterford universal. Hmmm- so many options!


Pearlsasinger said:
I find that my incredibly strong Draft horse responds well to the NS Universal (Tranz mouthpiece) with 2 reins and a curb strap. Our curb is actually a cat collar, as her head is so big that the strap which came with the bit is too short. She came with a Dutch gag and one rein but finds this far more comfortable and I am much happier to use it. She also schools quietly in the NS Verbindend.
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Would be interested as to the reasoning behind the Waterford mouthpiece for a horse that raises the head as opposed to bearing down/grabbing hold of bit?

Got no probs with a Waterford and used to hunt old ned in a Cheltenham gag with Waterford mouthpiece, but he had a very different way of going in the hunting field to what you are describing (forget the Cheltenham bit, am talking about the mouthpiece).

To be honest if what you used works for both of you then continue. People can talk about schooling until the cows come home but hunting is a totally different ball game.
 
Have you considered changing the noseband? If you're using a cavesson try a drop or grackle. Preventing him evading the action of the bit means the bit will be more effective. I know you didn't mention him opening his mouth but if he's sticking his head in the air and poking his tongue out he's most likely opening his mouth or crossing his jaw too.
 
They said he wouldn't be able to grab it the way he does now? Hmmm, maybe I didnt explain what he does thoroughly enough to them.

It did work but it could be better. I had enough brakes to feel safe but had we stayed out all day I think I would have got exhausted from holding him.

I did see his tongue out a fair bit!

gunnergundog said:
Would be interested as to the reasoning behind the Waterford mouthpiece for a horse that raises the head as opposed to bearing down/grabbing hold of bit?

Got no probs with a Waterford and used to hunt old ned in a Cheltenham gag with Waterford mouthpiece, but he had a very different way of going in the hunting field to what you are describing (forget the Cheltenham bit, am talking about the mouthpiece).

To be honest if what you used works for both of you then continue. People can talk about schooling until the cows come home but hunting is a totally different ball game.
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Yes this was definitely a thought too. His tongue was out. I guess I just thought that maybe that indicated he wasn't happy with the bit and I should solve the bit issue rather than strapping it shut? Hmm! It's one of those things I won't know until I try it- and its a scarey mistake to make if you make a poor bit choice and end up with an uncontrollable horse!


Sugar_and_Spice said:
Have you considered changing the noseband? If you're using a cavesson try a drop or grackle. Preventing him evading the action of the bit means the bit will be more effective. I know you didn't mention him opening his mouth but if he's sticking his head in the air and poking his tongue out he's most likely opening his mouth or crossing his jaw too.
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To me it would make sense to put him in a verbindend universal, (especially if tongue out) though your normal gag would be the much cheaper option ;).

I would try him in a back strap, honestly I think they are much nicer and more consistent with your request to slow down (without you can end up pulling on lips (not bars) when the head is up and just putting huge amounts of poll pressure on.) - mine is just a spare flash strap ;) :D
 
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