Dutch gag on the bottom ring with one rein

Michen said:
Yes this was definitely a thought too. His tongue was out. I guess I just thought that maybe that indicated he wasn't happy with the bit and I should solve the bit issue rather than strapping it shut? Hmm! It's one of those things I won't know until I try it- and its a scarey mistake to make if you make a poor bit choice and end up with an uncontrollable horse!
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I agree with you that he might be unhappy with the bit. If he is, he'll be putting his tongue out or throwing his head up regularly, probably every time you attempt to take more than the lightest of contacts. If it's only when he wants to tank off then I'd say he's just evading the bit. It's understandable, he tries to tank off so you pull harder, which hurts and so he tries to evade. Better to not have to pull so hard or so often, because the bit is working as it should with the noseband preventing the evasion. Or because you've found a bit he respects more. I never agree with strapping the mouth shut and don't believe any noseband should be used that way, if fitted properly they prevent evasions but don't affect the horse while he's relaxed and behaving well. And yes you won't know until you try it, but it can be surprising what effect a different noseband can have. Same with bits, your best bet is to borrow some and experiment. Since he does it cantering in company it gives you the ideal practice situation.
 
I guess I'm just worried that this is less strong than the bottom ring of the Dutch gag? As it doesn't have a third ring option.

I can test it cantering/galloping in company but he's not as strong then as he is hunting so it won't be quite a true test. Also now he's been once and knows what to expect I inagine he will be stronger next time!




ester said:
To me it would make sense to put him in a verbindend universal, (especially if tongue out) though your normal gag would be the much cheaper option ;).

I would try him in a back strap, honestly I think they are much nicer and more consistent with your request to slow down (without you can end up pulling on lips (not bars) when the head is up and just putting huge amounts of poll pressure on.) - mine is just a spare flash strap ;) :D
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Michen said:
They said he wouldn't be able to grab it the way he does now? Hmmm, maybe I didnt explain what he does thoroughly enough to them.

It did work but it could be better. I had enough brakes to feel safe but had we stayed out all day I think I would have got exhausted from holding him.

I did see his tongue out a fair bit!
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OK.....a Waterford works on a horse that grabs hold only IF the jockey is confident enough to release the contact JUST when the horse is being rude and attempting to grab hold/bog off/bear down, such that the mouthpiece collapses and the horse has nothing to lean on and will therefore fall on his own nose unless he re-balances. If the jockey isn't comfortable doing this then the Waterford is no different to any other mouthpiece ....other than it can create sores in the corner of the lips big time if held on to.

Apologies if teaching grandmother to suck eggs! :)
 
Not at all. That is very helpful thank you. Doesn't sound like a sensible option for a horse who grabs and sticks his head in the air then?


gunnergundog said:
OK.....a Waterford works on a horse that grabs hold only IF the jockey is confident enough to release the contact JUST when the horse is being rude and attempting to grab hold/bog off/bear down, such that the mouthpiece collapses and the horse has nothing to lean on and will therefore fall on his own nose unless he re-balances. If the jockey isn't comfortable doing this then the Waterford is no different to any other mouthpiece ....other than it can create sores in the corner of the lips big time if held on to.

Apologies if teaching grandmother to suck eggs! :)
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Pearlsasinger said:
Yes, she suggested the Waterford for my mare but she is comfortable and responsive in the Tranz
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Do you think the tranz would be less strong than the Dutch gag on the bottom ring though? I don't want to get myself into a situation where I have less brakes than before!

Basically I'm going to go hunting and take saddle bags full of bits to swap them over hahaha
 
The Dutch gag is a dreadful bit and a nasty short cut for control, IF it has to be used, two reins are needed to make it work effectively as it was designed to be used. To just have the use of the one rein on the bottom is tantamount to cruelty, as the poor horse is punished by the poll action as well as the nut cracker action to the roof of its mouth. Most horses are strong out hunting, god knows how we all coped before these horrid bits came into existence, but perhaps we all learnt to ride with two reins and knew how to ride in a double bridle. The fact that your horse has his tongue out OP is making me wince.
 
Ah true, not sure, I only use the bottom when he is being a proper tank jumping to make a point, the middle is usually plenty.
hmmm its tricky if he likes the shape of the verbinbend/ poss lack of tongue room is meaning he is sticking out the side - and if he is doing then you aren't putting pressure int he right place anyway so.

cheaper version that is essentially the same and doesn't cost so much to try!
http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=1037
 
I have a gag for my cob and I found the more I used it the worse he got to be honest. He literally just seemed to get stronger and pull on it more. So I went back to basics schooling with a snaffle and just use the gag when I really needed it like cross country. I considered Pelham but never bothered in the end.
 
I am aware that most horses are strong out hunting, but I need to be safe and I need to have control and brakes to keep us both out of trouble so it's not acceptable to me to just take him hunting without knowing I can stop him, slow him and steer him as and when I want to.

To be honest, half the meet were there in gags on the bottom ring with a single rein. Personally I know it's not correct and that's why I am now looking for alternatives.

Yes his tongue was out when he was trying to evade and take off, but it certainly wasn't out the entire time.

So- what would you suggest? As I posted asking for suggestions as I knew my current bit choice wasn't ideal, I am glad that has been confirmed by you and would be open to what you would consider a good alternative.



justabob said:
The Dutch gag is a dreadful bit and a nasty short cut for control, IF it has to be used, two reins are needed to make it work effectively as it was designed to be used. To just have the use of the one rein on the bottom is tantamount to cruelty, as the poor horse is punished by the poll action as well as the nut cracker action to the roof of its mouth. Most horses are strong out hunting, god knows how we all coped before these horrid bits came into existence, but perhaps we all learnt to ride with two reins and knew how to ride in a double bridle. The fact that your horse has his tongue out OP is making me wince.
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Thanks Ester! X


ester said:
Ah true, not sure, I only use the bottom when he is being a proper tank jumping to make a point, the middle is usually plenty.
hmmm its tricky if he likes the shape of the verbinbend/ poss lack of tongue room is meaning he is sticking out the side - and if he is doing then you aren't putting pressure int he right place anyway so.

cheaper version that is essentially the same and doesn't cost so much to try!
http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=1037
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I use a dutch gag with a flash noseband which is done up loosely and always use 2 reins. I only use the bottom rein when I am being tanked off with otherwise I just use the snaffle..i immediately revert back to the snaffle as soon as I am back in control...works brilliantly for me and gives me the confidence that I can stop in an emergency, very important for an oldie like me!!!!! I tried mine in a pelham and she just went behind the bit and bucked and leapt about which was worse than being run off with IMO....
 
Fwiw I (and Frank) am quite happy and do ride in a double but the dutch gag happens to also work well for us although the only bit I have found Frank not to go in is one with a lozenge. Anything else he goes well in, just subtly different. We have a deal though, behave and you will be on the buckle end, start being daft and I will take a contact. I certainly think enough horses going well in them, including at high levels, with single reins that they can't be the work of the devil.

kinetons can be very useful :)
 
There were sooooo many people in them at the meet. Hardly anyone in double reins as well. I would rather not have two reins as it's just more to think about but needs must!

ester said:
Fwiw I (and Frank) am quite happy and do ride in a double but the dutch gag happens to also work well for us although the only bit I have found Frank not to go in is one with a lozenge. Anything else he goes well in, just subtly different. We have a deal though, behave and you will be on the buckle end, start being daft and I will take a contact. I certainly think enough horses going well in them, including at high levels, with single reins that they can't be the work of the devil.

kinetons can be very useful :)
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We had a strong horse who used to open his mouth and (incidentally) bite his tongue - we put a flash noseband on, with a fairly loose flash strap, just to stop him getting his tongue out.

None of our horses are light in the mouth when they are hunting - doesn't matter how much schooling we do at home, we have 17.2++ draught types, and they are like stopping a bus - takes time and decent brakes =D

Our biggest lad sticks his head in the air and runs - he has a loose ring gag (Salisbury) with waterford mouthpiece, kineton noseband and standing martingale. He's not strong until you take a pull lol! We have spent 6 seasons working out what works for him - we have gone through a variety of curb bits, ported or otherwise, double bridles and gags, until we had this one made for him. He has a thick tongue, small mouth and is 18hh - a challenge!


I wouldn't worry about having 2 reins on a 3 ring gag - I would go for what works! Not a fan of the bit itself, but again, go with what works for you.
 
Michen said:
Do you think the tranz would be less strong than the Dutch gag on the bottom ring though? I don't want to get myself into a situation where I have less brakes than before!

Basically I'm going to go hunting and take saddle bags full of bits to swap them over hahaha
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No, I don't think so. My mare had apparently run away with her previous owner in the Dutch gag, she is the strongest horse I have ever known and extremely opinionated. She is very responsive in the Universal, without me having to do more than twitch the rein. She is one of those horses that will take on a fight given half a chance, so the rider needs to keep very soft hands and be effective without fighting.
 
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Michen said:
There were sooooo many people in them at the meet. Hardly anyone in double reins as well. I would rather not have two reins as it's just more to think about but needs must!
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I've hunted Horse's happily in DG with one rein although I do prefer a leather curb.

If you can get hold of a kineton they are worth a try, I hunted my old horse in an Cheltenham until someone suggested this with a snaffle and it was an absolute dream for a horse that just used to head up and pull. If you're not too far away from Lincolnshire you can trial mine if I can find it.
 
That's very kind thank you- im down in Berkshire though! I was looking at the Worcester noseband as well as apparently these are a bit gentler than the kindeton. Any experience with those?
RunToEarth said:
I've hunted Horse's happily in DG with one rein although I do prefer a leather curb.

If you can get hold of a kineton they are worth a try, I hunted my old horse in an Cheltenham until someone suggested this with a snaffle and it was an absolute dream for a horse that just used to head up and pull. If you're not too far away from Lincolnshire you can trial mine if I can find it.
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The good thing about the kineton is that it only comes into effect when the rider pulls on the reins. With the Worcester, it holds the bit, regardless of the rider's contact.

I would rather ride with a light contact and a strong bit, than be heaving and hauling on a milder bit.

Just for information......
Of our guys, we have the aforementioned 18hh with salisbury gag, kineton, flash and standing martingale
17.2hh 18 yr old with no mouth to speak of - Cheltenham roller gag, kineton, flash and running martingale
9 yr old 17.2hh - waterford universal, cavesson noseband, standing martingale
9 yr old 16hh - waterford snaffle (any more and he gets too light in front - by choice, I would put him in a waterford Nelson gag as he likes running on his forehand ), standing martingale
The 2 5 year olds - one is in an eggbut snaffle and one is in a NS universal - both are 17.2hh and both have standing martingales too.
 
Hmm im leaning towards trying a universal (with either a verbindend or tranz angled mouthpiece) with a kineton..... Using the universal on the normal ring so I can drop it down if needed.



spacefaer said:
The good thing about the kineton is that it only comes into effect when the rider pulls on the reins. With the Worcester, it holds the bit, regardless of the rider's contact.

I would rather ride with a light contact and a strong bit, than be heaving and hauling on a milder bit.

Just for information......
Of our guys, we have the aforementioned 18hh with salisbury gag, kineton, flash and standing martingale
17.2hh 18 yr old with no mouth to speak of - Cheltenham roller gag, kineton, flash and running martingale
9 yr old 17.2hh - waterford universal, cavesson noseband, standing martingale
9 yr old 16hh - waterford snaffle (any more and he gets too light in front - by choice, I would put him in a waterford Nelson gag as he likes running on his forehand ), standing martingale
The 2 5 year olds - one is in an eggbut snaffle and one is in a NS universal - both are 17.2hh and both have standing martingales too.
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Michen said:
Hmm im leaning towards trying a universal (with either a verbindend or tranz angled mouthpiece) with a kineton..... Using the universal on the normal ring so I can drop it down if needed.
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I have also found a PeeWee bit to be very effective on a strong horse, good for steering as well as brakes and designed to be used with one rein. I can't use it on the Draft mare though as her face is so long that I can't find a bridle that fits her and will accommodate the PeeWee .
 
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