DUTCH GAG - please help??

tigerlily12345

tigerlily12345

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could someone fill me in please??
ie how to wear one?
what is the action?
does it raise or lower the head?
can it be worn with a curb chain or strap?
single or double rains?
how severe is it? on each ring?
etc???
i am very confused and getting a lot of mixed answers?!

this is the one im thinking of

gag.jpg
 
The lower down the rings you go the stronger the action. The cheek pieces attach at the top ring then you can choose from the 3 rings below depending on how strong you need it.

I've always been told that a gag will raise in the mouth and so raise the head but I have heard people claim it drops the head from the poll pressure!

They should really be used with double reins or roundings and a curb but most people dont bother and use it like a snaffle with extra leverage.
 
KT88 said:
use it like a snaffle with extra leverage.
Click to expand...

yeah, that is how i have always seen it used.. :confused:

They should really be used with double reins or roundings and a curb
Click to expand...
where can you attach a curb to? ive heard this but can never work out how it would work!?

I've always been told that a gag will raise in the mouth and so raise the head but I have heard people claim it drops the head from the poll pressure!
Click to expand...
Ive heard this too! so confusing! hopefully someone will be able clear it up.. or maybe its just different for different horses :S
 
You would probably have to use just a curb strap which would attach to the cheek piece rings. I agree i have never actually seen them used the way they are supposed to be!

I think the theory is that the lower down the rings you go the more poll pressure you will get, but with loose ring versions as far as i can tell the mouthpiece will just slide around the ring until it reaches the other ring before actually tipping the bit to produce poll action. So you would need a lot of pressure on the rein before engaging the poll. That combined with the raising of the mouthpiece in the mouth would suggest head raising rather than head dropping to me, but i stand to be corrected!
 
tigerlily12345 said:
could someone fill me in please??
ie how to wear one?
what is the action?
does it raise or lower the head?
can it be worn with a curb chain or strap?
single or double rains?
how severe is it? on each ring?
etc???
i am very confused and getting a lot of mixed answers?!

this is the one im thinking of

gag.jpg
Click to expand...

The cheek pieces are attached to the small single rings above the big ring.

The first rein imitates the action of a Baucher - it keeps the bit still in the mouth, there is no poll action, but as the mouthpiece can move on the ring it is not held in one place all the time, as with any snaffle it raises the head.

Middle rein increases the lift in the mouth by it's leverage action - again no poll pressure unless the bit is jammed against the back teeth.

Bottom rein again increases the lift in the mouth by it's leverage action - again no poll pressure unless the bit is jammed against the back teeth.

When not used with a curb chain it can be ridden with one rein only.

To turn this bit into a head lowering bit you need to fit a leather strap to the same ring as the cheek pieces are attached to, usually a long thin strap with a buckle at one end and two keepers. The strap goes through the small ring and through the first keeper - then goes under the jaw to be fed through the small ring and back through the second keeper, it is then brought back to the buckle on the near side and done up to allow the strap to sit in the chin groove. Now it will apply poll pressure when the lower rein is used and lower the horses head.

With the curb strap attached it is now best to use with either two reins or a split rein or with roundings.

Sadly it is misused a lot and often makes the horse really miserable and fight, especially when a running martingale is added to it. Watch many horses in running martingales and the wil flick their heads upwards and back to try and get away from the change of angle of the bit in the mouth.

If you need a martingale then go for a standing as this has no effect on the bit but just on the front of the nose.
 
well basically this bit was advised to me but i dont want to use it without knowing what it does.
she is currently in an eggbutt french link snaffle which is fine for flat work but she just runs through it when show jumping hence why i was advised this. i was told it had a head raising action which is what i need for her as she sets her head down and goes (and goes and goes and goes!) although she does have a running martingale as for flatwork she holds her head way up!
in theory could i ride with this on the main ring as an ordinary snaffle? or would i need to switch between the 2 (which isnt a problem)?
i would rather only ride in one rain but could ride in roundings if necessary? i also have the option of trying a pelham with roundings (straight rubber bur) or a Dr bristol?
and before anyone jumps on me she is not in any pain just very over excitable and has spent most of her 13 years being galloped at everything!
 
Because he puts his head down into the jump the Dutch gag would not be any good because it would develop it's poll pressure action when you use the reins as the bit would end up jammed against the teeth.

What you need is a Running gag - the cheek pieces run through the bit ring to the rein, When you use the rein the bit raises in the mouth lifting the horses head. Really you should use this bit with two reins, riding on the rein attached to the bit ring while he is behaving and then use the rein to the running attachement when has put his head down.

There are several types of gags, The Balding (Loose rings), Cheltenham (eggbutt ring) & the Barry (loose ring two offset jointed mouthpieces or 'W mouth') gags are ridden with two reins, while the Half Cheek Balding is only ridden with one rein.
 
Hi there,

My big strong eventing warmblood who I brought used to have a gag for jumping, I gave it a go and its awful. He is very strong, but he doesnt like the poll pressure. It made his head carriage very low and when I gave him a quick check his he would throw his head right up. I now have him in a Tom Thumb. Again on the lower ring, he didnt like the poll pressure, but I use this with roundings and its fine. so much better!!! doesnt go round with his head between his knees and I still have control XC!!
 
luce1 said:
Hi there,

My big strong eventing warmblood who I brought used to have a gag for jumping, I gave it a go and its awful. He is very strong, but he doesnt like the poll pressure. It made his head carriage very low and when I gave him a quick check his he would throw his head right up. I now have him in a Tom Thumb. Again on the lower ring, he didnt like the poll pressure, but I use this with roundings and its fine. so much better!!! doesnt go round with his head between his knees and I still have control XC!!
Click to expand...

A Tom Thumb doesn't have a lower ring can you put up a picture of your bit?
8SnaffleTomThumb.jpg
 
luce1 said:
Hi there,

My big strong eventing warmblood who I brought used to have a gag for jumping, I gave it a go and its awful. He is very strong, but he doesnt like the poll pressure. It made his head carriage very low and when I gave him a quick check his he would throw his head right up. I now have him in a Tom Thumb. Again on the lower ring, he didnt like the poll pressure, but I use this with roundings and its fine. so much better!!! doesnt go round with his head between his knees and I still have control XC!!
Click to expand...

Do you mean a wilkie?
 
i used the gag today in my lesson and i was amazed, she went beautifully, didnt bolt into the jumps and i was even able to adjust her stride (which was impossible before) she didnt ride with her nose between her legs or way in the air, in fact she held herself exactly where i asked without any fighting.
however the bit i was using was single jointed where i would prefer something else (she has a french link on her snaffle) thing is if i get a bit with a french link will i have less control? i dont want to cause her pain and she has a very sensitive mouth, so what would be a good mouthpiece to use so i still have control?
 
tigerlily12345 said:
could someone fill me in please??
ie how to wear one?
what is the action?
does it raise or lower the head?
can it be worn with a curb chain or strap?
single or double rains?
how severe is it? on each ring?
etc???
i am very confused and getting a lot of mixed answers?!

this is the one im thinking of

gag.jpg
Click to expand...

the top ring (the big one) is the same as a loose ring snaffle and thats all i know because my orse has a extrmemely soft mouth so i only use a loose ring :) xx
 
If the action of the gag helped her and you're happy then I'd just get a french link version of it personally to match what she's happy in with the eggbutt :) Pleased to hear it helped.

Evelyn, there's another type of bit commonly seen on jumping horses called a tom thumb, I shall toddle and find a pic.
 
Hi , if your bit is suppose to have two reins ... use two reins or one rein . If you put roundings on you then loose to preciseness of the 2 separate rein rings , they are there for a reason ! Using 2 reins isnt difficult its just that we are not use to it and we have to concentrate more on what our hands are doing but well worth the practice. If you are not sure about curb pressure then use a shoestring to see if your horse copes with curb pressure , most dont need much and you can fasten it to a Dutch no problem . A loose ring bit will mean that your horse can move the mouthpiece around and therefore swallow , the same with a frenchlink , a snaffle mouthpiece will force the joint downwards onto the horses tongue and your horse will be unable to swallow , so not so good ! Its a case of trying different bits in different situations , you only get the true experience of how your horse and its bit are suitable when you are in a "difficult" situation ( jumping , hunting or where ever you seem to have the problem !) . Its like the brakes on your car ... most of the time they are fine , pottering around town, its only when you have to slam them on , in the rain , with a lorry up your exhaust , on the motorway doing 70mph ( officer ) ...thats when you find out how they really work !!! LOL
 
bj666 said:
Hi , if your bit is suppose to have two reins ... use two reins or one rein . If you put roundings on you then loose to preciseness of the 2 separate rein rings , they are there for a reason ! Using 2 reins isnt difficult its just that we are not use to it and we have to concentrate more on what our hands are doing but well worth the practice. If you are not sure about curb pressure then use a shoestring to see if your horse copes with curb pressure , most dont need much and you can fasten it to a Dutch no problem . A loose ring bit will mean that your horse can move the mouthpiece around and therefore swallow , the same with a frenchlink , a snaffle mouthpiece will force the joint downwards onto the horses tongue and your horse will be unable to swallow , so not so good ! Its a case of trying different bits in different situations , you only get the true experience of how your horse and its bit are suitable when you are in a "difficult" situation ( jumping , hunting or where ever you seem to have the problem !) . Its like the brakes on your car ... most of the time they are fine , pottering around town, its only when you have to slam them on , in the rain , with a lorry up your exhaust , on the motorway doing 70mph ( officer ) ...thats when you find out how they really work !!! LOL
Click to expand...

well i used it today with the single joint and it worked but i would be unwilling to buy one for the reasons you said! i didnt use a curb or strap or anything and she went well so i dont think i will need one. "luckily" coco provides the "suitable" situation everyday!! so the simple act of put a jump up showed me how well it worked! the bit shop have a 4 ring loose ring gag with a lozenge that i can trial (but no french link one) so i think i will see if it works :)
 
Thats good that your horse is so co-operative in explaining what she? likes !!!LOL.
It is trial and error , and some of the most "severe " bits horses go so well in ! Its like people that wear heels .... suit some and others like me , walk like a transvestite !!!!
 
bj666 said:
Thats good that your horse is so co-operative in explaining what she? likes !!!LOL.
It is trial and error , and some of the most "severe " bits horses go so well in ! Its like people that wear heels .... suit some and others like me , walk like a transvestite !!!!
Click to expand...

yes she :) i was surprised how well she went, i could feel myself being extra sensitive with my hands but my instructor said i am usually very sympathetic with my hands anyway.
i was told she has cut her mouth from strong bits in the past but i know for a fact some of the people who have ridden her in the past are very heavy with theyre hands which she really doesnt respond to.
 
Glad you are getting there . Its a really great feeling when you feel you are making progress ..... keep up the good work ... and well done for asking ! Most dont , they just shut their ears and eyes and ignore their horse .
 
Talking of bits, I have aquired one that facinates me.
It has loose rings, looks like a thick chain (3 links) with a solid ball in the middle of each link, totally flexible.
Sorry I can't post pics, anyone enlighten me
 
tigerlily12345 said:
does it raise or lower the head?
Click to expand...
i've found on my mare that it lowers her head (use it on the first setting for jumping)
tigerlily12345 said:
single or double rains?
Click to expand...
single, tried double once and just made it awkard
tigerlily12345 said:
how severe is it? on each ring?
Click to expand...
severity increases the lower you go. i use a french link snaffle usually but sometimes put her in the gag for fast work on a hack or competing.

not read the replies so sorry if someone else has already answered all your questions!
 
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