Dutch Gags

HollyWoozle

HollyWoozle

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Talking about bits in other topics just made me wonder what people's opinions are on dutch gags? They seem to have a bad reputation in some ways (well, as much as a bit can have a bad reputation!) but what are your experiences and opinions of them?

I ride Belle in a dutch gag for several reasons, though she is on the snaffle ring (I don't know how different this is to being in an actual snaffle?). Firstly, it's what she was ridden in by her previous owners and originally I didn't want to fiddle with anything tack wise (she came with her tack). Now we are having lessons, it is a bit which she goes very nicely in and seems happy with. During our second jumping lesson together, she became quite strong and my RI suggested that next time we jump, we should put the reins down to the next hole to give me some extra control. As I hope to jump more, this makes having the gag seem like a good idea. I also like knowing that should she be strong when it comes to cantering/galloping on a hack (not tried yet) that I will be able to have those extra brakes if necessary. For the record, she is a big 16.2hh and nearly 8 years old.

So what do you think about them?
 
My coloured hacks out in one, although I have been naughty in the past with it, now I only ride that bit with two reins and a leather curb chain, as it was designed to be used.
It isn't a bit I would happily put in a horse's mouth and I try to avoid it where possible because I just don't like the action, but my coloured can ride out in quite a nice outline wearing it. I suppose what I'm saying is it is ok as my last resort, although I'm still not a fan and if I could find something coloured was happier in I would swap.
 
HollyWoozle said:
I ride Belle in a dutch gag for several reasons, though she is on the snaffle ring (I don't know how different this is to being in an actual snaffle?). Firstly, it's what she was ridden in by her previous owners and originally I didn't want to fiddle with anything tack wise (she came with her tack). Now we are having lessons, it is a bit which she goes very nicely in and seems happy with. During our second jumping lesson together, she became quite strong and my RI suggested that next time we jump, we should put the reins down to the next hole to give me some extra control. As I hope to jump more, this makes having the gag seem like a good idea.
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A Dutch gag with the rein on the snaffle ringis - effectively - a snaffle! If she goes well in that - she'll go well in an ordinary snaffle!!

And your RI wants shooting - or at least chainingup a long way from horses! There are two rings on a Dutch gag so it can be used with two reins - the snaffle rein 90% or more of the time and then a 'hoik'on the gag if horse gets head down and tanks off!

Riding JUST on the gag ring makes a VERY severe bit except in VERY experienced hands (and experienced hands can cope with two reins!) We're constantly getting horses in for re-schooling when the gag fails - which it inevitably does. Force begets force - you fight him, he fights you! Put him in a snaffle and get a NEW instructor - one who can teach you half-halts, and getting your horse OFF his forehand and in front of your leg!
 
I love dutch gags & have never had a horse/pony who didn't go quite happily in one.
I use them as a step up from a hanging cheek if needed, Sienna has one as her jumping/fast work bit, she likes to lean and pull the rider out of the saddle if possible, the gag stops this. She hates pelhams, mylers & cheltenham gags & is horrible to ride in them.
I used them if Will's ponies needed extra brakes as well, rather that than not enough brakes. These are all very well schooled animals btw.
All bits are only as bad as the hands at the other end of the reins.
 
I don't mind dutch gags, just another option really. Although I have to say lately I have seen more and more horses/ponies in them who fight them (bit of cantact and their heads go straight up = more pulling = more fighting = etc). I wouldn't blame the bit for that tho, I blame the riders.
 
JanetGeorge said:
A Dutch gag with the rein on the snaffle ringis - effectively - a snaffle! If she goes well in that - she'll go well in an ordinary snaffle!!

And your RI wants shooting - or at least chainingup a long way from horses! There are two rings on a Dutch gag so it can be used with two reins - the snaffle rein 90% or more of the time and then a 'hoik'on the gag if horse gets head down and tanks off!

Riding JUST on the gag ring makes a VERY severe bit except in VERY experienced hands (and experienced hands can cope with two reins!) We're constantly getting horses in for re-schooling when the gag fails - which it inevitably does. Force begets force - you fight him, he fights you! Put him in a snaffle and get a NEW instructor - one who can teach you half-halts, and getting your horse OFF his forehand and in front of your leg!
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To be honest, I'd rather not shoot her, I quite like her. :p So would you always say in your opinion that anybody (other than expert riders) using a dutch gag on anything other than the snaffle ring should be using two reins? I just ask because I have seen a few riders using the gag rings with just the one set of reins.
 
HollyWoozle said:
To be honest, I'd rather not shoot her, I quite like her. :p So would you always say in your opinion that anybody (other than expert riders) using a dutch gag on anything other than the snaffle ring should be using two reins? I just ask because I have seen a few riders using the gag rings with just the one set of reins.
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I know couple of absolutely USELESS RIs that I quite like too - I just wouldn't take lessons from them. ;)

I actullyy think that EVERY rider who uses a Dutch gag should be using two reins if not using it as snaffle - same for American gags, Pelhams etc. Just an expert rider would do less damage (maybe!) You ONLY want to use a severe bit when you need it - otherwise - over time - a horse's mouth becomes deadened to it, he learns to evade it and to fight it. And then what do you do? Can you find a MORE severe bit? And what when THAT stops working? You see a few riders beating the cr*p out of their horses too - doesn't mean it's right or necessary!
 
Allelujah! Somebody else that knows that it should be used with 2 reins! Sorry but ive been on here sooo many times and ive had a bashing for saying it should only ever be used with 2 reins and also preferably a leather curb strap. Often because people say they cant ride with 2 reins.

the reason for this is because it was designed to be used with 2 reins, the higher rein used first and the lower rein for a finer aid when required. The use of 2 reins also allows pressure and release, when the horse responds. With one rein all you get is pressure and alot of it. The length of the shank approximately multiplies the rein tension by 3 (its all to do with amount of shank above the mouthpiece compared to below- the ratio), so the lower you go with the rein the more the tension is multiplied creating pressure on the head and mouth. Using one rein actually gives a very confusing signal to the horse, in prticular because there is rarely a release of pressure.

99 out of a 100 people use 1 rein but that isnt correct. This perpetuates the problem as people see it with one rein and just accept thats ok. Even worse when 99/100 instructors say just move the rein down for more control. It makes me want to scream! One rein is used because of fashion, it has become the norm! But its wrong.

If you cant ride with 2 reins imo you have 2 options- use a different bit or learn to use 2 reins. JG is right, horses become habituated to an increase cycle of pressure i.e. they become deadened to the bit and the rider ends up looking for more and more severe options. Common evasions with dutch gags are for the horse to open their mouth, head up or head down- all behaviour to try and get away from the pressure. And then what happens- most people add a flash or move the rein down even further.

Granted, some people say their horse goes well in one. personally i have never seen a horse go well in one, showing no signs of discomfort. And i would also say to people who think their horse goes well with one rein- use two, as the bit should be used and i bet the horse will go even better!

(Essay/rant over- sorry!)
 
JanetGeorge said:
I know couple of absolutely USELESS RIs that I quite like too - I just wouldn't take lessons from them. ;)

I actullyy think that EVERY rider who uses a Dutch gag should be using two reins if not using it as snaffle - same for American gags, Pelhams etc. Just an expert rider would do less damage (maybe!) You ONLY want to use a severe bit when you need it - otherwise - over time - a horse's mouth becomes deadened to it, he learns to evade it and to fight it. And then what do you do? Can you find a MORE severe bit? And what when THAT stops working? You see a few riders beating the cr*p out of their horses too - doesn't mean it's right or necessary!
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I think the opposite is true.

I find a dutch gag suits my riding style and because I've taught him it also suits Will's. We both ride slightly off the bridle. I have pretty much no contact on the mouth unless I am in a snaffle and doing dressage or I am going fast and need to check.
Will rides the same. We both ride with our legs and seat predominantly, the bit is not used unless needed.
Unfortunately Sienna - as is fairly common, gets stronger and stronger in a snaffle (through sheer excitement - not lack of schooling) and if I jumped her in one much she would start taking charge big style. Her mouth would get dead and I would have to be more rough to get her back. In a dutch gag I set her boundaries and she works within them.
Because she has a BIG front I need a bit with leverage to keep her soft & stop her setting her neck & bearing down, which she does in a pelham, a cheltenham gag makes her curl up & she's uncontrollable. The other bit which works is a double, but I couldn't be bothered to start faffing with 2 reins, when a dutch gag keeps her happy & me safe.
 
teddyt said:
Granted, some people say their horse goes well in one. personally i have never seen a horse go well in one, showing no signs of discomfort. And i would also say to people who think their horse goes well with one rein- use two, as the bit should be used and i bet the horse will go even better!

(Essay/rant over- sorry!)
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Horses open their mouths and throw their heads around in all kind of bits...

Horse, showing signs of discomfort....?



Pony showing signs of discomfort...?



Just to show how evil we are, multiple dutch gag abuse on animals who never go well:



And just to prove we can go without:...
 
They are fashionable ;) say no more.............................but i find them less offensive than novices jumping in pelhams with curb chains and then getting left behind over the fence and the poor horse gets punished
 
As I said in my first post, I have been naughty in the past and ridden the bit with only one rein and without the curb, resulted in a quite unhappy horse.
I don't like the bit because it became all too fashionable, and seeing children riding ponies in the bit with a single rein proved quite a painful sight.
I hack out in the dutch because the horse seems relatively settled in it. I wouldn't compete in the bit because I don't like it and I believe I can find a good few alternatives. I think the notion of the leather curb on the bit was lost in translation, you never see many people riding the bit with one, which makes for quite a severe bit I would imagine.
 
I loathe and detest dutch gags, far far too fashionable and far too often ridden with only one rein - drives me completely nuts. The only thing I hate more than dutch gags are the pink and blue dutch gags, effectively encouraging kids and novices to use a bit that they have absolutely no understanding of:mad:
 
I used to hunt my old mare in one but used two reins and a curb strap, but I didn't know they were meant to be used like that it was just something I thought I had invented!
My son (9) rides his whizzy pony in one, with one rein and on the bottom ring. But as he thinks the buckle is so you know you are holding the reins in the middle and with anything less she pees off I think we will live with it. Both seem happy.
I used to ride for people that imported young horses from Ireland and everything was ridden in one, on the bottom ring and all went well. I think you need good hands to ride like that though, it can be a horrible sight.
 
I HATE dutch gags. Every horse ive met so far hates it, they go far far better in a universal if they still want the action or at least try something else.

A dutch gag would really be the last resort for me.

One horse came to us for re-schooling. Pony had started stopping and rider couldnt deal with it (child). We took off its dutch gag, replaced with a snaffle and pony dosent stop anymore!
 
If you are using a dutch gag without a chin strap ,the bit will rotate and rise in the mouth until one of two things happen :either the curb rein will pull in the same line as the bit and have no more effect than a snaffle ,or it will ride up against the teeth and use them as a fulcrum. No wonder we see so many horses throwing their heads up ,in a dutch gag. Probably the most abused bit going.
 
I have never used a dutch gag before apart from when shockingly one was on a riding school horse which fairly novice people rode. However, with the current share we tried lots of bits and he was unhappy in lots of bits. These included french link eggbut, and french link loose ring snaffles. He is a very spooky horse who will take flight without time to blink (comes from a very sheltered life as a stallion for a good 13 years or so). I was considering buying a hanging cheek, but then we would need something stronger for hacking out when he is full of himself, or for the gallops. So he is in a dutch gag.

I dislike them on the whole, they are very abused and i don't like to see them with one rein on anything other than the snaffle ring. The lad is schooled on the snaffle ring and goes lovely and soft and still in it (but then most aids come from legs and body weight). We then put split reins on the snaffle and second ring for fast hacking etc. If he were mine i would have 2 reins, but alas the down side of sharing.

It is not an evil bit. It is just not one that many people understand. I do think it has its uses in experienced and sensitive hands.
 
when i bought my pony he came with a dutch gag, flash and running martingale. i didnt like any of it, but also didnt want to change anything until we knew each other. he'd been a child's pony club pony and jumped, cross country etc. altho the child was a brilliant rider, far better than me!! i mainly hack him and for the first few months had absolutely no probs in the dutch gag, one rein on second ring. he is quite fizzy and gets exciteable but doesnt do anything naughty, other than bounce about a bit. so i tried him on the snaffle ring and again no probs. this made me wonder why he needed the gag, so i experimented. i was advisedby a bit bank to try a universal. the first few weeks he was jst the same, good as gold. until one day we met some dogs who came charging at us. my pony spooked and took off with me. not far, but i circled him back to his friend then all was fine. but from that moment, he had figured out he had control. the very next hack, he tanked off with me big time. like absolute flat out gallop, downhill towards home. and again the next time, he did it, but this time i managed to stop him half way. but he threw one almighty tantrum and reared. i ended up jumping off and leading him till we got the road where he settled down. so back in went the dutch gag. it took several hacks for him to settle back down. i stuck to the roads, but he still tried it on. this all happened 6 months ago. and even now on the Downs, he will try to do his own thing. when he wants to go, he will prat about. all because i took away the gag for a few weeks, he learnt he could take the piss. and its taken me this long and still trying, to teach him to listen to me again. so, dutch gag good or bad? for me, good and i wish i hadnt tried anything else. it all depends on the horse and rider.
 
I think if Dutch gags were the work of the devil then they would have becaome less popular over the last 10 years or so but I haven't seen less people using them, or dentists reporting that they cause terrible damage to horses teeth.

I think they exert less force and are far less damaging than american gags or cheltenham gags, so long as they are not fitted too high they do not exert unlimited pressure on the sides of the mouth. In fact the reason they are so successful is because IMO horses are responding to pressure on the poll to encourage flexion rather than solely pressure on the mouth, lips. My horse has a fleshy tongue & lips & appreciates a plain mouthpiece.

She is perfectly well schooled - as are all the horses who compete at levels from Badminton down with gags in their mouths and martingales at the same time. The level of hardware on a horse is no clear indication of it's level of schooling, I see badly schooled horses day in and day out in plain snaffles, no martingales & cavesson nosebands. Does this automatically make them well schooled....

I put gags on ponies for fast work because they can act like a hanging cheek snaffle with a light contact, if the pony thinks evil thoughts about bucking, the child has a chance to get it's head up quickly, also to stop the pony setting it's head and neck. I would never risk the child for the sake of appearances. All the ponies have been snaffle mouths & sold for substantial amounts and super safe competition ponies, complete with dutch gags in their wardrobes.

Really isn't the point that all bits are potentially harmful and that it is the rider who dictates whether the horse is uncomfortable in it's mouth and work.

OR that horses haven't read the theory behind why dutch gags are so evil, and so go quite happily in them.

OR that there are lots of tools we can use & we should keep an open mind about what might work on a different horse.
 
um i just wanted to point out what janetgeorge said about it being like an ordinary snaffle isn't true as the cheek pieces are attatched to a top ring when the reins are on the snaffle ring, so it really has the same kind of effect as a hanging cheek snaffle.
 
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#pessoa

More information on the action here.

Research has shown an experienced rider can place up to 6kg of tension in the rein, just in walk and trot. Multiply that by 3 because of the shank and you get 18kg of pressure split between the a few sqare inches of very sensive anatomy- the mouth and poll. Thats 2kg short of a bag of horse feed!

So what about a novice rider? Or one that uses alot of rein? Or one that actually pulls? Or a child who hasnt established an independent seat? You can easily work out that there is huge potential for alot of pressure. This is why they arent so good for children or novice riders- they just arent established enough to use the bit without such great potential for inflicting huge pressure on the horse.

I think if Dutch gags were the work of the devil then they would have becaome less popular over the last 10 years......
In fact the reason they are so successful is because IMO horses are responding to pressure on the poll to encourage flexion rather than solely pressure on the mouth, lips. My horse has a fleshy tongue & lips & appreciates a plain mouthpiece.
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I totally disagree with this. They are successful because of fashion and isnt it a lovely notion that you can alter the rein position depending on the day. Its simpler- you need more control so move the rein down. People LOVE that idea, its a simple solution and much more appealing than being told that the horse needs months (or years) of schooling and ditto in some cases the rider.

Alot of dutch gags are also very fat in the mouthpiece because they are hollow. Few horses have enough room in the mouth for this. A single jointed version is the worse because of the joint pushing into the pallet so easily.

Simply, by using just one rein the action is confused. With 2, the first rein should be used to warn the horse that the increased pressure will come from the second rein if needed. The 2 reins also allow for a finer rein aid and release of pressure. Using just one rein prevents all this.

You wouldnt ride in a double bridle with just one rein! The dutch gag has the same basic principle - a 'snaffle' (although not a true one) and then the curb.
 
I think if you based decisions about bitting horses on the content of Sustainable Dressage (as much as I enjoy and agree with it) you would never put a bit in a horses mouth again... Especially not a snaffle:

"A study of the dissected bodies of dead race horses, in Great Briatin I believe, showed that a high percentage of them had bony changes to their jaws. Bone spurs, like those forming in joints suffering from inflamatory arthritis, covered the bars of the lower jaw. Some horses had a grove across the bar near the lower first molar, where bone had withered away from the pressure of the bit. Imagine the agonizing pain these horses must have felt as their bars were injured by the strong pressure of the bit. They were probably too excited to feel it while racing or training, but the inflamation afterwards. And the renewed pain of getting that bit into the mouth again with the bars still sore and inflamed from the day before."


Having explained the way we like to ride our horses in the lightest possible contact, I was pleased to read this, (as no-one is allowed on my horses unless they are prepared to ride cowboy style - in teh nicest possible way!)

"Here dressage riders ought to look at western pleasure riders for a while. Although some WP riders overdo it and ride their horses off the bit and head low in a stupor, yet some of them know how to make a horse relax, stretch and be light. And they have the bit low in the mouth on the middle of the bars with no wrinkles on the corners of the lips. No chafing or ulcers. Pleasure."

I think there are valid criticisms of dutch gags - which no-one has mentioned with yet. They encourage horses to sit behind the contact and curl up rather than having a true contact
- something we overcome by having little or no contact for much of the time. They certainly aren't exerting as much pressure or pain as an american or cheltenham gag in the wrong hands.
 
I agree, the gag encourages going behind the vertical because of the pressure and too much contact. The horse is trying to evade the pressure. Remember that tension is multiplied, so if a rider thinks they have a light contact it is already more than they think because of the shank. Another research paper i have read said that actual contact is much greater than perceived contact- by riders, trainers and judges.

Its not surprising that racehorses have alot of bone spurs. Most are ridden in single jointed bits and frequently the jockey balances by holding hard on the reins. This is from another paper on bone spurs-


Most horses with mandibular periostitis are
performance horses ridden with a large amount of
bit contact. Inexperienced or overzealous hands
can result in damage to the mandibular bone.
Frequently affected horses include the following:
dressage horses, gaited horses, western working
horses, Standardbred and Thoroughbred race
horses, gaming horses, and polo ponies.1 Other
causes of injury include a horse stepping on its
rein, a horse being tied around to itself from the
bit, and damage from numerous types of bitting
rigs.
Horses often exhibit behavioral signs related to
avoiding bit contact when being ridden. Horses
will avoid the bit by going “behind the vertical,” or
by flipping their head so the rider releases contact.
Some horses bear into the pain, whereas others will
hang their tongue out of the mouth, protecting the
side that is most painful. Palpation of the interdental
space may elicit a painful response.
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Your horses are the lucky ones being ridden lightly. But i have honestly never seen a horse in a dutch gag that hasnt shown signs of discomfort. Opening the mouth being the most common one. And i cannot recall seeing one ridden in a light contact- quite the opposite!
 
siennamum said:
I love dutch gags & have never had a horse/pony who didn't go quite happily in one.
I use them as a step up from a hanging cheek if needed, Sienna has one as her jumping/fast work bit, she likes to lean and pull the rider out of the saddle if possible, the gag stops this. She hates pelhams, mylers & cheltenham gags & is horrible to ride in them.
I used them if Will's ponies needed extra brakes as well, rather that than not enough brakes. These are all very well schooled animals btw.
All bits are only as bad as the hands at the other end of the reins.
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Ahh that's saved me writing it all out as I agree 100%. I've used dutch gags on a range of horses very effectively without unhappy horses. Siennamum is a very knowledgeable horsewoman who knows her stuff and I'm sure she wouldn't use a dutch gag, like many others (including myself) just for fashion.
 
As I posted earlier, the bit rises in the mouth until it uses the teeth as a fulcrum. There is a secondary effect to this which is a lot of "take up" before this comes into play. I do wonder whether some peoples supposed success with the gag has more to do with their inability to maintain a light and even contact in any bit with a more immediate action,eg a snaffle.
 
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