Dying for Dressage... Watermill Scandic

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Whizzon

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OMG!! Has anyone seen the dreadful video footage on youtube of BLUE TONGUE - WORLD CUP?

The clip by EPONA TV shows Watermill Scandic ridden by Patrik Kittel in hyperflexion - the horse is clearly very distressed and has his tongue 'blue' and swollen, lolling out of the side of his mouth... the training warm up goes on for 90 minutes - the clip is only a harrowing 4 minutes.

Is this the death knoll for dressage? - are we watching a horse suffering a slow death, strangulation, suffocation and in agony? IT CERTAINLY ISNT BEAUTIFUL...

I will not support competitive dressage until the sport cleans itself up and starts taking disciplinary action and IMORTANTLY!!! outlawing training tactics that clearly do not have the horses welfare as paramount....

very , very sad...
 
There's a post further down.

I don't agree with Rollkur, people say there's evidence against it causing damage. But there's evidence for it as well, and if it's a risk, then i don't want to support it.

Plus it looks awful.

HOWEVER! There are bad sides to every sport, including equine- so maybe if you don't want to support things with equine cruelty/ dubious training methods you should not watch any equestrian sport.
 
hello somthingorother - your arguement for not watching sport (for fear of seeing abuse?) is not really the answer is it ?are you being facitious or trying to incite a response I wonder...Ignoring 'equestrian sport' it would rather be like one sticking one's head in the muck heap, dont you think?

No if we see things we must speak up for horses - Its quite simple and if we love horses, surely a responsibility on all of us?

so I will watch - I wont support - I will critisise and I will condemn riders that are cruel to their horses - sport is NO excuse!!
 
Yes that is a distressing video, but sadly as Somethingorother says, distressing practises can be found in practically every equestrian sport
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I wonder whether the OP is being inconsistent to refuse to support dressage because of the use of the rollkur method, whilst still -I assume- supporting other equestrian disciplines where cruelty is also prevalent?

For the record I agree the use of rollkur is wrong, however I don't think that stopping the support of professional dressage is the way forward
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I wasn't saying ignore it, i'm a massive massive anti- rollkur supporter, it is wrong, it should be banned and it makes me angry when people try and justify it.

I was saying that you should not discriminate against dressage, as horrific training practices go on in all parts of the equestrian world. Showing has it's hidden horrors, especially as we have seen on here with the TWH's in the US, show jumping has its rapping, electrified poles etc. Even the every day rider can find many ways to torture and abuse thier horses with gadgets and incorrect training methods.

I'm not saying stick your head in the sand, i'm just saying be aware it goes on everywhere. I'm not going to boycott dressage on the whole because a few idiots have no concern for their horses long term well being and short term comfort. I love the likes of Carl Hester for being a sympathetic rider, and instead choose to support those worthy of it.
 
Hi Cally

"why carry on" excellent point!?- why stuff the tongue back in the mouth, jam it in the lower jaw, back under the bit? for a further hour and a half?! why??

I guess its because they are allowed to - the rules dont protect the horse and the rules dont admonish rubbish and cruel riders.

then of course there is ego, money, peer pressure, expectations... stupidity, greed, fame

I am ashamed to say I am a horse owner when I see 'modern attrocities of riding techniques like Patrik Kittel and Anky etc.
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In answer to Ali M and somthingorother - points taken! and understood, I agree with much of what you say.

However I think - if we all say, well, we know it goes on... "but what can we do?" is pretty lame.

We should tell people/authorities what we dont want to see! and what we approve of - my sadness also stems from the fact that Kittel had an audience,(and STEWARDS/OFFICIALS) you can see them in the background... banal supporters who said and did nothing ...bystanders WHO WATCHED A HELPLESS HORSE SUFFERING...

I will/have written to the equestrian federations involved and I have posted here to highlight this cruelty - one I know of thousands of incidents of abuse of horses by riders - but we caught this offender! doing the elite sport of high school riding - NOT!

So I think we have to draw peoples attention to Kittel and others...some may do more than post here and that is good - maybe we can change things if we speak out?

Surley a blue tongue poking out proves something is unethical even to the rollkur advocates....

please god!!!
 
I don't want to sound cynical, but as long as horses like Salinero (another one who was caught -- by St Georg magazine in this case -- with a blue tongue) are chosen as the "happiest athletes", I really cannot see how the situation might change.
 
Well that's what we need to boycot then i think, i really have no respect for Anky at all, silly woman.

There was an anti-rollkur petition on here a while ago, but i didn't sign it because it was too drastic for my liking, i can't remember some of the requests that went with it but they were pretty unrealistic. Maybe we should make a more realistic/ specific one and send it to the authorities that be.
 
Christ i feel sick.
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and i only watched 1 min of that.
What has happened to dressage?
I have done a little and i was always tought the horse should work from behind into a natural outline with the poll as the highest point. I haven't been able to watch top dressage for a while as i don't think the horses go naturaly anymore and i have always stated that Ankys (and a few other top riders) horses never work from behind how can they when they have there heads pinned to there chest!!!!!!!! But time and time again these riders are rewarded for this unnatural way of going so they are developing crule ways of making the horses do this. I just can't beleive people do this to horses i just hope one day they come across one like lucy if i did that to her she would kill me!
 
That was truely awful, but hopefully with people like Dr. Gerd Heuschmann (he wrote Tug of War) holding lecture demo's and telling people including FEI judges that this is cruel and harmful way of riding this may stop.
 
It's like obesity in show horses, isn't it?
What needs to happen is that horses who look like they have been trained like this, or are known to have been trained like this, need to start to LOSE.
Under the collectives for paces and submission, a big fat zero would wake people up a bit. But it won't happen. Because so much sucking up goes on.
At Beijing, Anky got an 8 I think for 'Halt, Immobility, Salute' only one third of which was performed! And to be honest, even that was a bit off the wall. Now you might say if a horse is too uptight to stand still, it's not fit to win a gold medal, I couldn't possibly comment.
Just like show judges who keep on and on putting dangerously fat horses at the top of the line, so dressage judges are so tied up with the personalities, there are people they just would not dare give a zero to, and that stinks.
So in my less than humble opinion, sort the ruling bodies and judges out, that's what will free the horses. It's a crying shame that anyone should feel the need to torture a horse in order to win.
 
Well I have watched the video several times through now and I found nothing to get distressed about in that 4 minutes... yes the horse is working in hyperflexion but I doubt the blue tongue has anything to do with the hyperflexion, the horses tongue is blue and lagging out the side of his month because he has got it over one of the bits of his bridle, when the rider notices, he puts it back in and the horses carries on working... the horse is not distressed after the tongue has been put back in and he doesn't stick it out again, in fact once the tongue goes back in he is very settled in the mouth, with even amounts of saliva... I think if you want to prove a case against rollkur you need to find a better video than this one and I think if you want to make a case against this particular rider then the whole session needs to be shown, rather than just taking it as gospel that the horse worked for another 90 minutes and without seeing a video of the rest of the session no one can judge if the horse was happy working or not!
 
I find some of the responses on here unbelievable. He worked this horse for at least 2 hours like this, but even 5 minutes would be too long. If you care enough to want to understand exactly how this "training" affects horses physically and mentally then it's easy to do some simple searches on the Net and get educated. The horse is "not distressed" because it has shut down mentally, it has gone beyond the point where it can react. Excess saliva is not a good sign. A blue tongue means exactly what it would mean if the blood supply was cut off to your tongue. Simple. Why make excuses? There can never be justification for such cruelty and it's time the FEI acted against these "top" riders instead of rewarding their abuse.
Would anyone here allow their horse to be trained in this way?
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Thank you woeisme!

Your comments are succint I so agree with your statement!

Spooky..oh dear... you need to have a think about what you have seen on the EPONA TV clip.

The horse is working in HYPERFLEXION - constantly - his head is pulled in and down, constantly - there is no release. Believe EPONA TV!!! They are credible journalists of high integrity - they show what needs to be seen - they DO NOT ELABORATE!

Blueness tinge of the skin or mouth denotes lack of oxygen (fact!) including to the brain... this is due to airway being cut off - in this case because the head was pulled in so tight and becuase the mouth had no room for the tongue. Strangled and suffocated is not too strong a description.

The horse was trying to relieve the pressure by lolling the tongue he was trying to free his airway!!

Can we all step back and think - this is a STALLION an elite athlete bred for balance and supple movement. Genetically engineered to fight off stallions and to protect his harem... He is meant to be proud, strong, free of spirit - Watermill Scandic is none of these. Kittel has denied his spirit.

He is in learned helplessness - he has learnt that fighting back causes only further increased pain - so he 'endures' its the brains way of coping mechanisim to avoid shock and death.. So this proud, beautifull creature is 'forced' into an unnatural and damaging spinal outline ....by nothing less than strong hands, pressure of a crushing bit whilst simultaneously spurred in the ribs (tender jab yourself there!!) to create 'impulsion'

That anyone can view this clip and think it is ok absolutley beggars belief - what more do you want to see? Wtermill Scanic collapse, blood flowing freely from the mouth and ears...the horse screaming and writhing in agony?

No he is a stallion - he endures..........
 
Just watched it. It's absolutely disgusting and makes a mockery of competitive dressage.

I've said this before on here but how do those means justify the ends? Dressage is supposed to be about harmony and beauty but that just shows a cruel rider dominating what should be a proud and expressive horse. It's all about submission and domination.

Manky and Sjef say that they work their horses in rollkur but it's ok because it's only for brief periods and the horses are allowed a stretch and to come back "up". This video makes a mockery of even that! It goes beyond rollkur (or hyperflexion, as it's more PC to call it), it's pure, unadulterated cruelty.
 
[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER! There are bad sides to every sport, including equine- so maybe if you don't want to support things with equine cruelty/ dubious training methods you should not watch any equestrian sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't watch competitive dressage any more purely because of this! Just because "there are bad sides to every sport" does not make it right. The more of this sort of thing people can see, the more these riders will be shamed (and hopefully prosecuted for cruelty!) into changing their methods.
 
You only have to look at his eye when his tongue is lolling out to see that the horse has definately switched off (or in fact struggling to get oxygen - it looks very odd). It's so, so sad.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Well I have watched the video several times through now and I found nothing to get distressed about in that 4 minutes... yes the horse is working in hyperflexion but I doubt the blue tongue has anything to do with the hyperflexion, the horses tongue is blue and lagging out the side of his month because he has got it over one of the bits of his bridle, when the rider notices, he puts it back in and the horses carries on working... the horse is not distressed after the tongue has been put back in and he doesn't stick it out again, in fact once the tongue goes back in he is very settled in the mouth, with even amounts of saliva... I think if you want to prove a case against rollkur you need to find a better video than this one and I think if you want to make a case against this particular rider then the whole session needs to be shown, rather than just taking it as gospel that the horse worked for another 90 minutes and without seeing a video of the rest of the session no one can judge if the horse was happy working or not!

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This post has to be a joke??!!!

Can you really not see how cruel this is? I suggest that you have someone strap your head and neck down onto your chest and you try running for 90 mins. Then come and tell me it doesn't hurt!!!!!!

My jaw is literally on the floor reading your response!
 
I don't want to put anyone down, however I am concious from my own experience how easy it is to believe the "experts", just becaue they are "experts". I used to train at a posh dressage place, because I thought that way I would learn about riding in lightness and harmony. One evening after a change of instructor I had the most upsetting lesson of my life. I realise now that I was talked through riding the pony in hyperflexion. At the end I was flying round with the feeling that the pony's hooves weren't touching the ground... but his chin was pinned to his chest and I felt as if my arms were about to come loose of the sockets. Yet people had gathered in the gallery and I got applause when we stopped. I went to the loo, cried, never went back.
Sometimes we have to believe what we see and feel. We may be "happy hackers" in some people's eyes, but many of us have years of experience with horses behind us, and we need to trust our instincts. It has been said before, but how I wish that horses expressed pain, discomfort and distress in the way that dogs do. I am completely convinced that if that was the case things would never have got to this sorry state in the name of competition. Not just dressage, but in the broader arena. You look at a video like that and you know in your guts that it is wrong. For goodness sake, my OH is a car mechanic and he knew it was cruelty without any prompting from me. In this case the "science" to prove what we feel in out guts is out there for anyone who takes the trouble to go and read it, but firstly all we have to do is believe the evidence of our eyes.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you woeisme!

Your comments are succint I so agree with your statement!

Spooky..oh dear... you need to have a think about what you have seen on the EPONA TV clip.

The horse is working in HYPERFLEXION - constantly - his head is pulled in and down, constantly - there is no release. Believe EPONA TV!!! They are credible journalists of high integrity - they show what needs to be seen - they DO NOT ELABORATE!

Blueness tinge of the skin or mouth denotes lack of oxygen (fact!) including to the brain... this is due to airway being cut off - in this case because the head was pulled in so tight and becuase the mouth had no room for the tongue. Strangled and suffocated is not too strong a description.

The horse was trying to relieve the pressure by lolling the tongue he was trying to free his airway!!

Can we all step back and think - this is a STALLION an elite athlete bred for balance and supple movement. Genetically engineered to fight off stallions and to protect his harem... He is meant to be proud, strong, free of spirit - Watermill Scandic is none of these. Kittel has denied his spirit.

He is in learned helplessness - he has learnt that fighting back causes only further increased pain - so he 'endures' its the brains way of coping mechanisim to avoid shock and death.. So this proud, beautifull creature is 'forced' into an unnatural and damaging spinal outline ....by nothing less than strong hands, pressure of a crushing bit whilst simultaneously spurred in the ribs (tender jab yourself there!!) to create 'impulsion'

That anyone can view this clip and think it is ok absolutley beggars belief - what more do you want to see? Wtermill Scanic collapse, blood flowing freely from the mouth and ears...the horse screaming and writhing in agony?

No he is a stallion - he endures..........

[/ QUOTE ]

Very very well said.

This should be a proud stallion who takes pride in his work. Instead, as you say, he has learnt that the easiest way all around is to submit. There is no point in fighting because it only carries on anyway.

Who on here would stand up and be proud to say they worked their horse this way?
 
I don't let many people ride my horses. But if I saw even a hint of a rider starting to do this to one of mine they would be on the floor and off the yard before they knew what had hit them.
 
I also think whizz makes a good point about the whole 'happy working' thing. At the end of the day, horses can tolerate a huge amount of pain and abuse. They just DEAL with it.

It is crazy to think that the horse was not in pain and 'happy in his mouth' after the tongue was put back in. He has obviously just had his spirit broken and can't put up a fight.

I suggest anyone who thinks he's 'fine' straps their head to their chest and go for a jog!
 
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