Dying for Dressage... Watermill Scandic

This is the owner's email address. greve@watermolen.net taken from the Kelly Marks forum.
This is the FEI contact page, but strangely the links aren't working.
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http://www.fei.org/SEARCH_CENTRE/Pages/Contact.aspx
I might use snail mail.
 
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Blueness tinge of the skin or mouth denotes lack of oxygen (fact!) including to the brain... this is due to airway being cut off - in this case because the head was pulled in so tight and becuase the mouth had no room for the tongue. Strangled and suffocated is not too strong a description.

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I actually thought that it was more likely that the tongue had turned blue due to it becoming trapped, I do not believe that the horse would have been able to continue working if its was being/strangled suffocated in the way you describe.

I still don't like it but think that physiologically the fact that the tongue was trapped limiting blood flow seems more feasible to me.
 
Someone once said to me 'imagine if horses could wimper and yelp like dogs, then think how awful it would be in a dressage warm up arena'

Horses silently put up with all sorts of abuse and still try their heart out for the rider.
 
ester

any asthmatic will tell you they can carry on ...but feel like S***!"

Hello!!! the tongue wasnt trapped it was out!

the tongue is blue because his head is overbent - check rollkur - check hyperflexion - check gerd heuschmann , hilary clayton, andrew McLean, Paul McGreevy, Phillipe Karl, CRC

overbent is overbent and interferes with oxygen/breathing spinal movement.
 
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Someone once said to me 'imagine if horses could wimper and yelp like dogs, then think how awful it would be in a dressage warm up arena'

Horses silently put up with all sorts of abuse and still try their heart out for the rider.

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That just sent a chill down my spine
 
Whatever made his tounge turn blue I still wouldnt advocate working a horse in such an unnatural position for any length of time... how many human athletes are happy to hyperflex their spine for 90mins without stopping? I cant even hold my head on my chest for 5 mins without the muscles down my neck and shoulders aching and we have much more flexible spines than horses.
Its such a shame because for every appalling dressage rider theres a good one who train their horses with sympathy and understanding, it makes me cross to think these people are not being placed in favour of someone like this man. Theres so much bias and favoritism in dressage and other equestrian sports it makes me wonder why I even compete at all sometimes. People turn to all sorts of underhanded and cruel techniques just to win, I wonder how they justify it? How can they sleep at night? They cant love horses surely..
 
I just thought it was possible that the horse had attempted to relieve the pressure of the bits by poking his tongue out (still under the bit) and that the pressure maintained on the reins and hence the bits caused it then to become trapped there and limit the blood supply.

Whichever it is of course it is neither right nor pleasant to watch.

I am surprised that if we are however talking lack of oxygen to the whole body (and brain always gets oxygen as priority) that the horse is still able to work. Presumably this would increase the amount of anarobic resp in the muscles and hence increase lactic acid production particularly when working hard. this would then result in high instances of muscles cramps/tying up. Just using my basic knowledge though.
 
i dont even warm up for 90mins working 'normally'
never mind in such a bloody awful unnatural pinned in way. no wonder he was lifting his back and wanting to be poll high in the test- it would be bliss to be ALLOWED back out of that trapped way of working.
poor horse.must have heart of gold.
 
That video is disgusting, and gives a bad name to the many dressage riders who do train correctly, without using pain and dominance to rule their horses.
That horse is a classic case of learned helplessness, it makes me feel sick to watch it. If that is how he rides in public and in front of cameras, I dread to think of what he does at home. I really think that is something to think about.
 
That is one of the most disgraceful videos of dressage that I've seen for a long time. There is no excuse for anyone, professional, olympic champion or rank amateur to use this method. The end most certainly doesn't justify the means :<
 
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That is one of the most disgraceful videos of dressage that I've seen for a long time. There is no excuse for anyone, professional, olympic champion or rank amateur to use this method. The end most certainly doesn't justify the means :<

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Has anyone posted this video in HHO Competition Riders? I'd be really interested to see what the opinions in there are, compared to in NL, as there always tends to be a difference.
 
I cannot bring myself to watch this.

You can post comments on You Tube have H&H members registered their disgust?

Is there also an Equestrian Federation in Denmark who should receive comments?
 
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This is an older video. the riders faces have been "obscured" but are easily identifiyed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLZCG-ctuw

Paddy

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after watching that there is only one thing to say..................


Why?
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Because it's worth getting a 10 in a dressage test for JM. Surely that end justifies those means?
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I read that the FEI are investigating now so let's hope they have the guts to discipline this rider. Apparently the steward at the event in question didn't comment to the rider because all of the other horses in the warm up were being ridden in the same manner... so that makes it ok then
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Well I have watched the video several times through now and I found nothing to get distressed about in that 4 minutes... yes the horse is working in hyperflexion but I doubt the blue tongue has anything to do with the hyperflexion, the horses tongue is blue and lagging out the side of his month because he has got it over one of the bits of his bridle, when the rider notices, he puts it back in and the horses carries on working... the horse is not distressed after the tongue has been put back in and he doesn't stick it out again, in fact once the tongue goes back in he is very settled in the mouth, with even amounts of saliva... I think if you want to prove a case against rollkur you need to find a better video than this one and I think if you want to make a case against this particular rider then the whole session needs to be shown, rather than just taking it as gospel that the horse worked for another 90 minutes and without seeing a video of the rest of the session no one can judge if the horse was happy working or not!

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Horses that are happy in the mouth dont put their tongues over the bit.
Muscles go blue due to lack of blood flow i.e. pressure, a lot of it or over a long period of time.

If you are not distressed by seeing a horse forced in a totally unnatural carriage and its tongue going blue due to pressure then yu are as sick as the person riding the horse.

Have you ever held your chin on your chest for 90 minutes? Or held a heavy object in your out stretched arm for 90 minutes?

If the rider (or you) knew anything about the anatomy and physiology of muscles and the horse then you would know the damage that this causes, let alone the discomfort.

JM asks why? Answer- because they have a lack of knowledge and the mistaken belief that this is training the horse for the better. Because they are selfish and dont see the problem in telling the horse to go in an unnatural way. Because they dont care about inflicting discomfort and pain on horses. In short, because they are t*ssers who dont deserve to own and ride horses, who if trained with patience and understanding will offer you just as much, if not more.
 
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JM asks why? Answer- because they have a lack of knowledge and the mistaken belief that this is training the horse for the better. Because they are selfish and dont see the problem in telling the horse to go in an unnatural way. Because they dont care about inflicting discomfort and pain on horses. In short, because they are t*ssers who dont deserve to own and ride horses, who if trained with patience and understanding will offer you just as much, if not more.

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It will be interesting (in a sad
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sort of way) to see which of these horses is still able to perform at this level for many years. I wonder if any will still be happy (if they are now) and healthy as teenage horses, or how many will have broken down?

I read somewhere (I'll see if I can find where I saw it) that some of those who criticise rollkur expect Totilas to have broken down by the age of 10...
 
I haven't watched the video (work computer is not good at opening these items) but i can imagine how horrid it is and totally unnecessary.

The damage that can be done is quiet significant. We actuallt had a claim - a horse that was a headshaker and they diagnosed it with having osteophytes on the nuchal ligament which (I understand) is at the poll. This type of overbent work is one of the major factors.

This article explains quite a lot about the pressures applied to the particular areas. It does make you think - god why??!

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/why_not.php
 
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have wondered that too, but salinero is no spring chicken (just playing devils advocate)

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Thats just one horse though. How many thousands dont make it?
 
Well that's a good point teddyt, try and google old articles about Anky etc., their 'top future hopes' now are... unheard of (ten years down the line). How is this possible? I really do think that for every Bonfire or Salinero still competing in their teens there will be dozens and dozens who have broken down way too early.
 
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have wondered that too, but salinero is no spring chicken (just playing devils advocate)

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Thats just one horse though. How many thousands dont make it?

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I wonder if, like in the racing industry, dressage horses are becoming disposable? Train it until it breaks then move on to the next...
 
oh yes I get that teddyt, I am just perhaps surprised that any have made it through and been going that long as opposed to none. I didnt actually realise what his age was until the Europeans when it was mentione. Still cant stop though
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In % terms its most likely a minute number though. There are always exceptions that get through, like the top of a triangle, loads at the bottom and very few at the top. For some reason, call them freaks if you like, there are always exceptions to every rule. Doesnt mean its acceptable just because one has slipped the net.

Chesnutcob- yes, horses in any discipline are becoming disposable
Frodo- i agree, even without rollkur as a 'training' practice, too many horses in many disciplines are forced into too much too soon.

Rollkur is not training. It is at best bullying and at worst torture. How sad that people feel it acceptable to teach a horse this way, in what is after all supposed to be a partnership.
 
Rollkur/Hyperflexion? One word...abominable.

That poor, poor creature, I could only watch a few seconds of the 'blue tongue' video and the older post 'worried eyes'.
 
Well said teddyt these riders ( and there are lots ) have no empathy with there horses at all, they are just another number to them. These so called sportsman have only got to the top through brut force and lots of gadgets!! I have had to go on you tube to see something nice after this hoirrible video and saw a lovely rider doing lovely dressage with no bits, spurs and gadgets. Her horse had self carriage and free flowing movement and was a joy to watch. These elite dressage riders wouldn't have a clue how to ride like that. Todays dressage is UGLY!!!!
 
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Well that's a good point teddyt, try and google old articles about Anky etc., their 'top future hopes' now are... unheard of (ten years down the line). How is this possible? I really do think that for every Bonfire or Salinero still competing in their teens there will be dozens and dozens who have broken down way too early.

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A survey in Europe has found that 67% of sport horses are ending up in abattoirs by the age of 8 years old !!!!
 
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