Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
QR
If you read my reply correctly you will see I never said that I was either for or against rollkur/hyperflexion, I said this was not a good example of a video to use against rollkur/hyperflexion and I didn't find the hyperflexion part of the video distressing because in this video IMO the hyperflexion/rollkur is not causing the tongue issue, the fact the tongue is over the bit is... and I said AFTER the tongue is put back in the horse carries on working a happy in the mouth, I didn't say he was happy in the mouth at the time.
Horses can get their tongues over the bit for many reasons and without seeing the session prior to this video it would be very hard to judge why the horse got his tongue over the bit... My own horses have on the odd occassion in the last 20 odd years of owning horses got their tongue over the bit, about 5 times I can remember, the result has always to hop off get the tongue back in the correct position and carry on working, my horses tongue has never turned blue but I guess that because they are usually ridden in snaffles and the bit wasn't pressing on the underside of the tongue where the blood supply is!
As for needing to look on google to find out more about rollkur/hyperflexion, I have actually seen it being done in the flesh, including a first time session... its not something I would do with my own horses, the same as there are many training methods I wouldn't use on my own horses BUT I would rather see a moderate use of rollkur by an experienced rider with alot of feel than a bad rider yanking their horse around in draw reins anyday!!
Like all training aids, there is good and bad examples of use, training aids and methods should be used as just that, as an aid and in moderation, you see so often people using all sorts of methods and aids as a cure and that is wrong!
BTW if I saw rollkur/hyperflexion being used and the horse was distressed I would be the first to say something, just the same as I would with draw reins, de gouge's and the other array of gadgets their is out there, most that would never grace my tack room!
But it is my opinion that the cause of the problem in this video is not the hyperflexion but the tongue getting over the bit, so hence it is not a good video to use against rollkur/hyperflexion... I am sure you can find plenty that would be better to fight your cause!
As for saying these horse are dead in the brain from the training, then you don't really understand the mental requirements for these horses to perform at this level, they are far from dead in the brain... dressage horses trained to high level have to be forward thinking, alert and reactive, as well as being able to be attentive to the rider, in front of the leg travelling into the bridle and perform their movements. Thats why the majority of top dressage horses are sharp and far from dead in the brain!
And JM07 why do you always have to result to insults when someone disagrees with you, why can't you just put forward your beliefs and opinions in a well thought out manner without insulting people, at the end of the day all people are different and know more/less about certain topics than others! I can form my opinion on having seen rollkur/hyperflexion being used in the flesh, where horses weren't distressed and not just base my opinion on you tube videos. Insulting people is just not necessary, I never insulted you, I just gave my opinion which I am just as entitled to do as you are, if you disagree that is fine but a well thought out answer with your reasons you disagree would come over much better than just insulting them!
If you read my reply correctly you will see I never said that I was either for or against rollkur/hyperflexion, I said this was not a good example of a video to use against rollkur/hyperflexion and I didn't find the hyperflexion part of the video distressing because in this video IMO the hyperflexion/rollkur is not causing the tongue issue, the fact the tongue is over the bit is... and I said AFTER the tongue is put back in the horse carries on working a happy in the mouth, I didn't say he was happy in the mouth at the time.
Horses can get their tongues over the bit for many reasons and without seeing the session prior to this video it would be very hard to judge why the horse got his tongue over the bit... My own horses have on the odd occassion in the last 20 odd years of owning horses got their tongue over the bit, about 5 times I can remember, the result has always to hop off get the tongue back in the correct position and carry on working, my horses tongue has never turned blue but I guess that because they are usually ridden in snaffles and the bit wasn't pressing on the underside of the tongue where the blood supply is!
As for needing to look on google to find out more about rollkur/hyperflexion, I have actually seen it being done in the flesh, including a first time session... its not something I would do with my own horses, the same as there are many training methods I wouldn't use on my own horses BUT I would rather see a moderate use of rollkur by an experienced rider with alot of feel than a bad rider yanking their horse around in draw reins anyday!!
Like all training aids, there is good and bad examples of use, training aids and methods should be used as just that, as an aid and in moderation, you see so often people using all sorts of methods and aids as a cure and that is wrong!
BTW if I saw rollkur/hyperflexion being used and the horse was distressed I would be the first to say something, just the same as I would with draw reins, de gouge's and the other array of gadgets their is out there, most that would never grace my tack room!
But it is my opinion that the cause of the problem in this video is not the hyperflexion but the tongue getting over the bit, so hence it is not a good video to use against rollkur/hyperflexion... I am sure you can find plenty that would be better to fight your cause!
As for saying these horse are dead in the brain from the training, then you don't really understand the mental requirements for these horses to perform at this level, they are far from dead in the brain... dressage horses trained to high level have to be forward thinking, alert and reactive, as well as being able to be attentive to the rider, in front of the leg travelling into the bridle and perform their movements. Thats why the majority of top dressage horses are sharp and far from dead in the brain!
And JM07 why do you always have to result to insults when someone disagrees with you, why can't you just put forward your beliefs and opinions in a well thought out manner without insulting people, at the end of the day all people are different and know more/less about certain topics than others! I can form my opinion on having seen rollkur/hyperflexion being used in the flesh, where horses weren't distressed and not just base my opinion on you tube videos. Insulting people is just not necessary, I never insulted you, I just gave my opinion which I am just as entitled to do as you are, if you disagree that is fine but a well thought out answer with your reasons you disagree would come over much better than just insulting them!
