Eating straw and colic?

[putasocinit]

Tnavas i agree with you, did you have a look at my pic, you will squirm lol. Agree the hard feed being fed, but disagree with the poo eating, i believe that is lack of vits mins, body not utilising the nutrients the way it should be, or sheer boredom from being locked up 24hrs a day, lets agree to half disagree so much easier, smile

 

[Tnavas]

Tnavas i agree with you, did you have a look at my pic, you will squirm lol. Agree the hard feed being fed, but disagree with the poo eating, i believe that is lack of vits mins, body not utilising the nutrients the way it should be, or sheer boredom from being locked up 24hrs a day, lets agree to half disagree so much easier, smile

The dung eating came about after the YO insisted on a major reduction in hay given to all the horses. The horse in question received a vitamin mineral supplement and only started the behaviour when hay had been reduced. Vet suggested that it was doing this to ease hunger. He was bedded on shavings.

 

[putasocinit]

So we are back to not enough fibre, hence dung eating, bed eating, etc.....

 

[Tnavas]

Tnavas - what would you do with a fatty then? genuinely interested if you don;t feed straw would you rather leave them without any forage? (assuming they are still weight gaining on old soaked hay)

My fatty is a 10yr old Clydesdale. She lives out 24/7 on a billiard table paddock. She has to work her butt off to get a meal, grass is so short that she must move around all the time.

Fortunately the past few winters have been mild and our grass ticks over enough to keep her fed. She's not had any supplementary feeding for 2yrs.

She is worked several times a week off grass.

She has a mineral block in her paddock, during rapid grass growth she also has a Magnesium block.

 

[Tnavas]

So we are back to not enough fibre, hence dung eating, bed eating, etc.....

The YO was totally ignorant about horses eating requirements, his child was pony mad, he had too much money so bought a yard and supplemented his income with full liveries.

I left because I couldn't work with his ideas.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

putasocinit-the horses of which I spoke were being deliberately fed on straw-they had straw in their feeders whether in the field or in the stable, they were working horses and not in 24/7. They were fed straw to save money because of the sheer amount of forage those big horses get through, but I expect the 3-5 day hospital stay put paid to that.

 

[putasocinit]

Does she live out 365 days a year then? What about if it snowed would you supplement? Do you have any pics to prove it does work and we dont have to moddy coddle them and she looks well. I think our fear is them getting too thin, even those you see in the wild seem to be fit and quite fat.

Do you think the spraying of the disinfectants/whatever to stop bed eating might have had a role to play in the colic episodes.

 

[Fides]

putasocinit-the horses of which I spoke were being deliberately fed on straw-they had straw in their feeders whether in the field or in the stable, they were working horses and not in 24/7. They were fed straw to save money but I expect the 3-5 day hospital stay put paid to that.

My horse was deliberately fed straw too - to reduce calorie intake and slow forage consumption. Maybe the problem was from poor management rather than the straw - if they are as bad as you make out l can't imagine husbandry will have been up to scratch...

 

[MotherOfChickens]

My horse was deliberately fed straw too - to reduce calorie intake and slow forage consumption. Maybe the problem was from poor management rather than the straw - if they are as bad as you make out l can't imagine husbandry will have been up to scratch...

did I say I was completely anti straw feeding? no! I just said its a risk factor for impaction colic. sheesh, I feed straw myself.

 

[putasocinit]

Good ole straw, motherofchickens sorry i was sure you said winter, must be too much wine, however yes straw takes longer to digest so ends up undigested in the hind gut which causes impaction colic, but if mixed with another forage which is easier to digest it will help to digest the straw with the idea of hopefully not getting colic, so let all horses be healthy and have full bellies. Night night

 

[Tnavas]

however yes straw takes longer to digest so ends up undigested in the hind gut which causes impaction colic

Incorrect - the digestible parts of the straw are digested as normal - it is the indigestible part LIGNIN that causes the problem.

Yes putasocinit Serenity is out 24/7 365 days of the year and is also uncovered. Fortunately we don't get snow this far north. If we did she would get some meadow hay. Being from the UK I have had my horses and ponies living out 365 days of the year, when snow fell they would dig down to the grass. They got hay but not hard feed.

pics

A couple of weeks ago

And in early spring

 

[maccachic]

Good ole straw, motherofchickens sorry i was sure you said winter, must be too much wine, however yes straw takes longer to digest so ends up undigested in the hind gut which causes impaction colic, but if mixed with another forage which is easier to digest it will help to digest the straw with the idea of hopefully not getting colic, so let all horses be healthy and have full bellies. Night night

You need undigested fibre in the hind gut to keep it working.
Im sure I read somewhere that straw could make up to 20% of the diet.

Wonder how many straw impaction colics have been autopsied? Would be a good research project for someone.

The other thing I wonder about fatties is that maybe they are deficient in something hence they eat more in an effort to get what ever is deficient and then from there maybe its a learned behavior. Not all vits and mins are as complete as the marketing says. Would love some research on this. I have two horses which could be fatties (always well rounded SB and WB) but they cope pretty good on supplement and out at grass without restriction and weight is consistent - touch wood.

 

[LD&S]

I put round bales of straw out in paddock for my donkeys and fatties so they always have adlib fibre to munch on, they then get a small barrow of hay once a day! I have been doing this for year and (touches wood) never had an impaction colic! I think impaction colic is due to lack of water and straw so as long as drinking enough you should have no problems.

I actually feed wheat straw as do a few people I know, all my nets are small holed and double netted, through the winter (there are out 24/7) I'll put as many as 8 large nets of straw, I like to make sure there is always some left, during the summer when they aren't having hay I still put a couple of nets of straw out, I've seen all three walk away from hay and choose to eat the straw, it's not there only forage and they can't gorge it because of the nets but no-one I know that feeds it has ever had a problem, oat straw is meant to be the best followed by barley straw (mine don't like it) and I have heard you shouldn't feed wheat straw but there must be thousands of houses up and down the country that are bedded on straw and eat some of their bed but you don't hear of thousands of cases of colic.

 

[Tnavas]

You need undigested fibre in the hind gut to keep it working.
Im sure I read somewhere that straw could make up to 20% of the diet.

Wonder how many straw impaction colics have been autopsied? Would be a good research project for someone.

The other thing I wonder about fatties is that maybe they are deficient in something hence they eat more in an effort to get what ever is deficient and then from there maybe its a learned behavior. Not all vits and mins are as complete as the marketing says. Would love some research on this. I have two horses which could be fatties (always well rounded SB and WB) but they cope pretty good on supplement and out at grass without restriction and weight is consistent - touch wood.

No don't think its a deficiency more genetic - the cold bloods are far more profficient at getting all the nutrients from their food.

TB's are really a few hundred year old mix of breeds with Arabians being used to speed them up. So sometimes you will get a TB that is a great doer, grows a hairy coat and hairy legs in winter as my TB Tnavas used to , while others will have coats like silk, lose weight at a degree change in weather and eat your bank balance at a high rate of knots.

 

[Polos Mum]

So effectively on a billard ball table field you are leaving her without forage? As there is very very little to eat - yes she is eating all the time but at a low volume.
Sadly mine is on vet enforced box rest so being out on thin grass isn't an option and over this winter he'd have been swimming in mud after a week on a small turnout pen.
Everything is a risk and a compromise, if you take the on the road you risk some idiot running into the back of you etc etc. everything is a calculated risk.

 

[Tnavas]

So effectively on a billard ball table field you are leaving her without forage? As there is very very little to eat - yes she is eating all the time but at a low volume.
Sadly mine is on vet enforced box rest so being out on thin grass isn't an option and over this winter he'd have been swimming in mud after a week on a small turnout pen.
Everything is a risk and a compromise, if you take the on the road you risk some idiot running into the back of you etc etc. everything is a calculated risk.

My youngster spent 6 weeks on box rest following a paddock accident - he got just Meadow Hay and a mineral block. Once he got to accept that he was confined he was OK

 

[Polos Mum]

My youngster spent 6 weeks on box rest following a paddock accident - he got just Meadow Hay and a mineral block. Once he got to accept that he was confined he was OK

Thanks Tnavas - but my big irish live on fresh air horse was piling on the pounds with just soaked hay - he was having it largely as lib to keep him calm in his confinment and because I'm more afraid of ulcers than I am of colic in this particular slightly stressy horse

 

[putasocinit]

I agree tnavas the lignin does not get digested as well, but at least the other forage has assisted in breaking down a good part of the straw. Lignin is also found in old grass the long bits at the end so not only in straw. It takes 8 hrs for a horse to digest its meal, hence why you will find green poo in the box and brown poo in the field for those horses that are brought in. So if eating grass all day, then fibre and straw overnight, the grass as well as the other forage will be in the stomach to assist with the breaking down of the straw, and so the cycle goes around. I believe this topic has gone a bit off road whereby instances of colic from straw are 50% based on horses who have scoffed their beds with little forage of another sort e.g. Hay, haylage and grass, again the autopsied research would be very interesting. Lets not forget those who have had colic from straw, what was the state of their teeth like, if they were bot in a good state their chewing would have also been compromised so longer stems of straw would have entered the digestive system.

 

[Tnavas]

I agree tnavas the lignin does not get digested as well, but at least the other forage has assisted in breaking down a good part of the straw. Lignin is also found in old grass the long bits at the end so not only in straw. It takes 8 hrs for a horse to digest its meal, hence why you will find green poo in the box and brown poo in the field for those horses that are brought in. So if eating grass all day, then fibre and straw overnight, the grass as well as the other forage will be in the stomach to assist with the breaking down of the straw, and so the cycle goes around. I believe this topic has gone a bit off road whereby instances of colic from straw are 50% based on horses who have scoffed their beds with little forage of another sort e.g. Hay, haylage and grass, again the autopsied research would be very interesting. Lets not forget those who have had colic from straw, what was the state of their teeth like, if they were bot in a good state their chewing would have also been compromised so longer stems of straw would have entered the digestive system.

You need to go and learn your digestive system and how it works.
1 Lignin is INDIGESTIBLE which is why straw can cause blockages.
2 food is retained in the stomach for only around 20mins, food is layered.
Eg Grass from paddock, hard feed, hay. Which is why you'll find green droppings in the stable and yellowish ones in the field. If everything were mixed in the stomach the droppings would be a greenish yellow!
3 several examples of impacted colic given where of horses that had plenty of feed and were not hungry.
Teeth maintenance and worming regularly play an important part in preventing colic but don't stop the risk. When working at a very famous highly respected stud in UK one of the pony stallions had frequent episodes of impaction colic. Some horses are susceptible to colic others not. One of mine could not be turned out on frosted grass as she would colic a short while later.

Worming plays a major part in preventing colic episodes, I'm not a believer in the worm count testing after all what is in one ball of dung could be totally different to what is in another. The eggs don't line up and spread themselves equally between balls.

 

[tallyho!]

Can I just say, Tnavas, that lignin has nothing to do with digestion blockages. If that were true then they wouldn't even be able to eat grass. Horses are actually very good digesters of structural carbs, of which lignin is a part of cellulose within the plant stems. Ruminants are the best digesters but horses digest it through fermentation in the caecum or hind gut as we all know it.

Also, the caecum is in four parts and food MIXES in these chambers however, it is well known and any vet will tell you that sudden changes in diet is the primary cause of dietary or impaction colic where there has been a disturbance in the fermentation process and food can't digest and gets "stuck", or gassy build up causes a blockage.

This is why, you must always make changes gradually so that the live bacteria that live in the hind gut which ferments food a chance to adjust to changing pH, concentrations of digestible and indigestible materials.

Feacal egg counts are VERY useful because the samples are representative of what is the hind gut as the food is mixed and the majority of harmful worms live here, living off whatever passes through their home.

Horses that colic from eating straw are most likely horses that have just come off pasture, and find straw appetising and gorge. It can happen with hay so don't be fooled into thinking that hay is safe. We lost two horses from hay colic, both in the same week. Like I said, some straws are quite high in sugars and can have higher levels of non-structural carbs but it is very dry and has a different pH to what the gut has been used to digesting. Problems can occur to older horses, prone horses, and some that have an underlying issue of some description.

Some colic episodes happen for "no reason" to horses that have been on the same diet for years.

Teeth are vital to break up the cellulose chains so saliva can start digesting the non-structural stuff. Poor teeth will send long strands of partially chewed material which can ball up. Some horses cope remarkably well, some horses don't. Luck of the draw.

So, anyway, feed what you like to your horse. If you want to avoid colic, do it gradually like it says on ALL feed bags! Colic can strike at anytime but I refuse to believe that it is caused by "straw" alone.

 

[Tnavas]

Can I just say, Tnavas, that lignin has nothing to do with digestion blockages. If that were true then they wouldn't even be able to eat grass. Horses are actually very good digesters of structural carbs, of which lignin is a part of cellulose within the plant stems. Ruminants are the best digesters but horses digest it through fermentation in the caecum or hind gut as we all know it.

Also, the caecum is in four parts and food MIXES in these chambers however, it is well known and any vet will tell you that sudden changes in diet is the primary cause of dietary or impaction colic where there has been a disturbance in the fermentation process and food can't digest and gets "stuck", or gassy build up causes a blockage.

This is why, you must always make changes gradually so that the live bacteria that live in the hind gut which ferments food a chance to adjust to changing pH, concentrations of digestible and indigestible materials.

Feacal egg counts are VERY useful because the samples are representative of what is the hind gut as the food is mixed and the majority of harmful worms live here, living off whatever passes through their home.

Horses that colic from eating straw are most likely horses that have just come off pasture, and find straw appetising and gorge. It can happen with hay so don't be fooled into thinking that hay is safe. We lost two horses from hay colic, both in the same week. Like I said, some straws are quite high in sugars and can have higher levels of non-structural carbs but it is very dry and has a different pH to what the gut has been used to digesting. Problems can occur to older horses, prone horses, and some that have an underlying issue of some description.

Some colic episodes happen for "no reason" to horses that have been on the same diet for years.

Teeth are vital to break up the cellulose chains so saliva can start digesting the non-structural stuff. Poor teeth will send long strands of partially chewed material which can ball up. Some horses cope remarkably well, some horses don't. Luck of the draw.

So, anyway, feed what you like to your horse. If you want to avoid colic, do it gradually like it says on ALL feed bags! Colic can strike at anytime but I refuse to believe that it is caused by "straw" alone.

Having recently completed a diploma in equine nutrition I do know about the digestive system and how it works!

The Caecum comprises 3 parts, not 4, the base, the body and the apex.

Lignin is the indigestible part of the plant - INDIGESTIBLE - the older the plant the higher the Lignin level with straw being the highest in indigestible cellulose. This is why when horses eat their beds they are more susceptible to impaction colic. Lignin gives the plant strength but is highly resistant to chemical and microbial degradation.

The horses I've mentioned were those stabled 24/7. Yes sudden changes can cause colic but we having been discussing the risk of impaction colic of horses that habitually eat their straw beds.

As to worm counts an English friend does worm counts and worms as directed by the vet, which meant last year she was told to worm only the once. The worm count at Xmas was 1300! From several of her ponies who are grazed over a large area along with sheep and cattle, dung picked up daily! So you can see why I have no faith in this system. I worm 4 times a year with Parade, contains Ivomec and Praziquantel, I've used this one every time for 10years. My horses were almost worm free when I did the last worm count.

 

[tallyho!]

My apologies, I meant the colon.

I too did a course but not as recently as you did. Lignin is quite indigestible as it is cellulose but the equine and many other grazers evolved to deal with it very effectively.

I maintain that lignin is not a cause of colic.

 

[amandap]

I would love more research into colic. I wonder if time of year is a factor from reading forums. There appear to be a lot of posts atm.

I also understand that lignin is indigestible. What I don't get from this thread is horses eating straw beds appears to link to colic but horses fed straw don't seem to be more at risk. Why?

 

[honetpot]

If given the choice horses are browsers, and eat, bark, berries, and all different types of grass and plants not the smooth bland managed paddocks we tend to keep them on. In hot countries their forage contains very little water and the grass is often a lot more fibrous than ours so I can not believe that they are not capable of handling a bit of straw and as I have been feeding wheat and barley straw for 25years winter and summer with no ill effects with a variety of types of animals that is my observation. It doesn't really matter if the lignin is digested as long as it goes through the gut, lets face it most of what you feed a horse ends up on the floor and do you really think all the straw pellets in horse feed come from nice fluffy oat straw?http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6510E/X6510E03.htm
Every year I try and source my hay and straw from a variety of suppliers, I mix batches and feed hay and ad lib straw wheat or barley straw is fed. As long as the straw is well made they will eat both, rummaging through a bale for the best bits. They are far more picky about hay, sometimes preferring rough hay to a nice green sweet smelling meadow hay, at the moment they prefer some 2012 rye hay over last years. This time of year they love bark so if I cut down any fruit or willow trees they get the boughs to strip.
I have kept horse for 30+ years, I have never lost one to colic or more importantly laminitis and none have them have stable vices so for me feeding straw if there is a risk which I doubt is worth it.

 

[Tnavas]

I would love more research into colic. I wonder if time of year is a factor from reading forums. There appear to be a lot of posts atm.

I also understand that lignin is indigestible. What I don't get from this thread is horses eating straw beds appears to link to colic but horses fed straw don't seem to be more at risk. Why?

Mixing straw with hay is fine but the bed munchers may eat far too much at a time and this can cause colic if the horses digestive system is susceptible.