Eek =S

flamehead, you are far too emotive about your dislike of racing to form a coherant arguement against the way these horses are handled in a race situation. You clearly have far more knowledge and experience than the trainers and lads and lasses, jockeys, stall handlers et al. If you dont like it dont look!! I am sick of people going on about racing. Nothing in any horse sport is without its dangers. Take a look at the bin end sales, the Dartmoor ponies, the complete idiots that own horses. Cruelty is at these places where there is no media watching. Think about your hatred of racing, then look at the broader picture.
 
pastie2 said:
flamehead, you are far too emotive about your dislike of racing to form a coherant arguement against the way these horses are handled in a race situation. You clearly have far more knowledge and experience than the trainers and lads and lasses, jockeys, stall handlers et al. If you dont like it dont look!! I am sick of people going on about racing. Nothing in any horse sport is without its dangers. Take a look at the bin end sales, the Dartmoor ponies, the complete idiots that own horses. Cruelty is at these places where there is no media watching. Think about your hatred of racing, then look at the broader picture.
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I'm not denying that there is cruelty in other areas of horse sport/ownership. In fact, if you look through my previous posts you'll find a post from me debating whether I wanted to continue playing polo, and actually I stopped playing when i witnessed some abuse that I considered to be too bad for me to play again.

However, I don't think that it should be a case of 'don't like, don't look'. I disagree with that, because if we all had that attitude to everything then there would be even more horrid things in the horsey world than there already are!

I appreciate that you may work in the racing world, or at the very least take alot of enjoyment for it, however, I still disagree with blindfolding an animal to force it in to doing something! And I still can't see a decent explanation that makes me feel any better about the situation - so I'm still entitled to say I disagree with the practice!

By the way, its worth adding that I've been to the races once and actually quite enjoyed the day - but if I saw what I believed was cruel in XC, for example, which I absolutely adore, then I would still feel bad about it!

I don't believe I'm too emotional about it, but I refuse to be told to shut up by you just because my opinion doesn't agree with yours.
 
flamehead said:
I cant believe anyone would ever blindfold a horse
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I understand that blindfolding them calms them down quite a lot if they get stressed out.

I went to the calgary stampede a few years ago and can't exactly remember what happened but a horse went a bit mental and they put a massive black tarp over it for 5 mins or so. When they took it off, it just got up and walked away calmly.

Don't want to be argumentative or anything, just saying what I've seen.
 
mistletoe maletto said:
I understand that blindfolding them calms them down quite a lot if they get stressed out.

I went to the calgary stampede a few years ago and can't exactly remember what happened but a horse went a bit mental and they put a massive black tarp over it for 5 mins or so. When they took it off, it just got up and walked away calmly.

Don't want to be argumentative or anything, just saying what I've seen.
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Thats really interesting, thank you. I wonder why that is! As I would have thought it would have created mad panic, taking a prey animals senses away.

I have heard about putting a hand over one nostril to force the horse to concentrate on their breathing - I wonder whether it works on the same system, forcing them to focus on something else?
 
flamehead said:
I still disagree with blindfolding an animal to force it in to doing something! And I still can't see a decent explanation that makes me feel any better about the situation
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I don't see anything wrong with blind folding. It calms the horse, and in regards to getting the horse into the stall...is better than beating 7 bells out of it to get the horse in, or stand around all day with a carrot.

As someone said, I can understand how some people may relate it to holding up a foot to prevent a horse form kicking, twitching to keep it calm etc. Blind folding them normally calms the horse down (of course some may have the odd panic), they rely on their other senses and the handler to direct them.

Horses may be blindfolded by the vet to diagnose wobblers. Also I have a friend who was involved in a stable fire years ago, without blindfolding the horses there would have been no way they would have got those horses out alive. Blindfolding the horses calmed them down very quickly...allowing the handlers to walk them out and into the fields safely....obviously very different with regards to getting a horse into a racing stall...however just an example that it is a very useful technique when handled correctly and not abused.

I have been involved with the good side of racing and polo, but of course there is abuse....as there is in all other disciplines...but I don't think blindfolding a horse to get it calmly into the stall is abuse. Never had a problem with stalls though...I think stalls are more of an American racing thing?
 
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I dont agree with the OP, as my post further up says, but as she says it is her right to express an opinion, and once again some posts are getting personal, I really do not understand why :(

surely we are all coming from the same stand point, and that is our love for horses, and all our activities and the way we handle our horses is different.

I love it on here, but I do dislike the way some things get soo personal, rather than just heated.

Sorry, but just my opinion
 
Horses are calmed by the blindfold, hence they walk into the starting stalls, no fuss no panick. Most of these horses have someting to prove, look at the horse in question today. Went and won its race. Would you rather that horse was just left at the stalls and never got the chance to achieve something? There is a differance from being wooden and shere terror. It didnt look frightened to me. People in racing have so much experience and knowledge handling these wonderful brave horses, its when they are sold to Joe Public is when their problems start.
 
But the examples given in the rest of the thread are when either blindfolding is used for a medical reason (i.e. vet needs it), or when the horses are panicking and terrified. Surely, if a horse is panicking and terrified to go into a stall, it shouldn't be forced in??
 
flamehead said:
Excuse me? There is absolutely no reason to be so rude. I'm perfectly entitled to an opinion - on anything, actually - and am always open to be educated if my opinion could be changed.

However, I STILL do not agree with pulling a horses tail, and blindfolding it. Actually, regardless of the situation, although I do still disagree with racing.

Your comment saying "not often do you see a horse get the better of them" - yes, maybe that is the case. However, many people in life are never 'beaten' by horses - that doesn't make their methods perfect, or even vaguely understandable. Many, MANY horses will never turn round and 'get the better' of someone - despite being beating, starved, treated badly.....is that to say that people who, for example, beat their horses repeatedly, are ok because they're never beaten by their horses?!

There is no reason to be so ridiculously rude, I appreciate that sometimes you are on that forum, and if you wish to educate me on why and how that is an appropriate method to train any horse, then go for it. But there is no reason to be so rude or to suggest that I'm not entitled to my own opinion, because I most certainly am.
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Pastie was not being rude, she has many years involved in racing as so do i. It appears you dont want to learn so ni suggest you pass on watching it-Are you for banning it then, or what!! These lads that put the horses in the stalls are all very experienced, they do it virtually daily, many times a day and i can assure you there is no cruelty involved!!
 
Reading this thread, I was taken back to the Black Stallion books...so many incidents of blindfolding: to get the Black to go in a lorry, to get him to walk off a plane or a boat into a busy area, to rescue the broodmares from the burning barn...glad to have been reminded of this technique. Seems like a harmless and non-invasive way to restore calm and possibly build some trust.

That horse was also forever rearing (he was a stallion after all, and from Arabia, and only the one teenage boy could possibly ever get near him and be his friend! :p ): I learned how to handle a rearing horse from that one. Thankfully, my pony isn't nearly as big as the Black, though! :p
 
rosiefronfelen said:
Pastie was not being rude, she has many years involved in racing as so do i. It appears you dont want to learn so ni suggest you pass on watching it-Are you for banning it then, or what!! These lads that put the horses in the stalls are all very experienced, they do it virtually daily, many times a day and i can assure you there is no cruelty involved!!
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Wow, another person who feels the need to be totally unnecessarily rude!

I have said that I am keen to learn, and I now know that blindfolding may be a useful way of calming a horse down. If ever I needed to calm a horse down, I may now use it! However, the whole situation still doesn't sit right with me - pulling a horses tail and shoving from behind? But I'm glad to have learnt about the benefits of blindfolding an animal.

I also made myself laugh this morning when my yearling got my coat stuck over her head - and stood stock still until I went to rescue her! She wanted to show me how it works, obviously lol!

I'm not for banning racing, as like I've already said I have been to see it and I have enjoyed it. Likewise polo, I loved playing for the few weeks I played, but the cruelty just didn't sit right with me then so I stopped. But I am still entitled to my own opinions and I won't be shouted down!
 
flamehead said:
Wow, another person who feels the need to be totally unnecessarily rude!

I have said that I am keen to learn, and I now know that blindfolding may be a useful way of calming a horse down. If ever I needed to calm a horse down, I may now use it! However, the whole situation still doesn't sit right with me - pulling a horses tail and shoving from behind? But I'm glad to have learnt about the benefits of blindfolding an animal.

I also made myself laugh this morning when my yearling got my coat stuck over her head - and stood stock still until I went to rescue her! She wanted to show me how it works, obviously lol!

I'm not for banning racing, as like I've already said I have been to see it and I have enjoyed it. Likewise polo, I loved playing for the few weeks I played, but the cruelty just didn't sit right with me then so I stopped. But I am still entitled to my own opinions and I won't be shouted down!
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Sorry.. what did you say? Couldn't hear you above the noise!!!!!!!!:)
Bryndu
 
I agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion but also that when presented with an alternative argument from people with first hand experience/knowledge then my personal thought is that people ought to be open minded, particularly when starting a post likely to have a variety of opinions.

When you say that the horse is " blindfolded and forced in- doing something not wanting to" I believe that at the end of the day if a horse really really does not want to do something it cannot be forced. It's half a tonne of muscle and I don't fancy anyones chance in forcing it to do something it absolutly does not want to do. It can be persuaded (if done "kindly") but the fact that this horse wasn't throwing itself around once inside and there was no cruelty (imo- a blindfold and pulling tail is- something my horse endures every day as part of instructions from physio- is not) involved then if the blindfold and tail pulling works causing less stress or risk of inury to the animal then go for it. My old horse was a sod to load and the only thing that worked was a chifney on and a broom just behind his bum. He went in straight away with no fuss or bother but if I didn't use it we would have full height rears and a lot of lather and stress for both of us. He wasn't scared just wasn't very bothered about doing it. It was as if he would say "now do you reeeally mean it" and as soon as the broom came out he knew I did and he chose to go on. I would NEVER have used the broom or chifney to hurt my horse but it was enough for him to be warned. The fact this horse went in and once in was fine and then raced happily suggests to me that it just didn't particularly want to go in but with a bit of persuasion thought "oh ok" then.

There are loads of times out hacking for example that we present horses with things that they don't want to do and sometimes we need to give them a smack with whip for example. But if all you need is one smack rather than namby pambying around and winding the horse and yourself even more then I say do whatever causes less stress. For example Ollie hates some boulders on a hack we go on. The first time he saw them he was rearing spinning around etc and at first I thought let him stop and look, take time etc but he was being totally irrational and the adrenaline was just making him worse. So after a couple of minutes of nicey nicey I gave him one sharp smack and sure enough he went past them albeit all over the shop. Is that cruel? Technically I "forced" him to do something he didn't want to do. Once we passed them I could then turn him to look at them and now all he does is spook slightly at them. Likewise a mare we were tring to load was being a total cow and we did the nicey nicey buckets of feed one step at a time approach but she was just gettiing more and het up. So we got a chifney and lunge line and just used lunge line to tap her back end and she went on with no fuss or bother once she realised we were being serious. I don't regard this as forcing but persuading them and letting them know that we aren't scared or can be bullied by them. If that mare absolutly did not want to go in the noone could have "forced" her. It's a choice they make.

If blindfolding the horse calmed it down and meant there was less risk of injury and/or an accident then go for it. If it was absolutly terrified of the stalls I doubt it's owner/trainer would risk the wellbeing/health of horse by "forcing" it in knowing that it potentially could explode and damge itself. I suspect it is practised at home and the horse knows its nothing to be frightened of etc but in a race atmosphere, when it's adrenaline is up etc if they know the blindfolding/tail pulling works and keeps things calm then why not. Isn't that what practising at home is all about....finding ways to overcome problems with as little stress to the horse as possible. I'm sure we all do different things to deal with problems at home but as long as the horse is not injured/beaten/more stressed in doing it then I say crack on. I have to twitch Ollie to clip his shoulders and I don't like to do it but it keeps him calm so I do. The first time he saw a water jump he was rearing, spinning, pissing off with me and I tried the nicey nicey just have a look but again he just boiled over and was totally irrational so had someone behind with a lunge whip behind him and I got off and stood in water holding onto rains not giving much of an option other than to go in. Now he was "forced in" but he was not harmed in any way other than perhaps his ego that 2 girls a tenth of his body weight had persuaded him to get his feet wet. Once I got back on and presented him with the water again he launched himself in and is now v confident.

If a horse really really doesn't want to do something as genuinly terrifed etc then I don't think it can be forced without someone/thing being harmed. I do not condone any form of physical abuse etc but see no harm in trying things to try and give us a chance to persuade that horse to do something. At the end of the day that horse has a choice...to trust us to not put it in danger or not. If it doesn't trust us and we "force" it I doubt we would live to tell the tail...and if we did it would be from a hospital bed!
IMO. lol.
 
well said Kerryflower.

I haven't' seen the race in question, however I would doubt very much that the horse was panicking and absolutely terrified. They would have practiced going into stalls over and over again at home, and maybe at other races. This would not have been a new thing for the horse. I would have thought that he would be feeling fresh, excited and surrounded by other horses and in that kind of atmosphere...he would have known what was about to happen and just be feeling excited...like most racehorses do...and just needed a little calming down and persuading. From my experience anyway....if you want to force a panicking, terrified horse into going into a tiny space....it ain't going to happen.

But yes, we are all entitled to our opinions :)
 
KF and TF, I'm sure you're both probably right. Just not sure it sits right with me - although it is fascinating about the blindfolding thing.

Still not a big fan of the tail pulling, but you're right about us all pushing horses in other situations that perhaps could be viewed as the same.

But then I suppose it depends on what you agree with in general - I would never hobble a horse (unless for its safety or others safety in an extreme situation obviously), regardless of whether its racing or just leading to the field!

But then, saying that, we have twitched a pony before and I'm not sure how different that is either....
 
flamehead said:
But then, saying that, we have twitched a pony before and I'm not sure how different that is either....
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Twitching releases endorphins and is a natural sedation - it has a very good place. I use it on youngsters in particular when mane pulling - means it is much less uncomfortable for them (with adult horses I pull after excercise but you can't do this with youngsters).
 
Christmas_Crackers said:
Twitching releases endorphins and is a natural sedation - it has a very good place. I use it on youngsters in particular when mane pulling - means it is much less uncomfortable for them (with adult horses I pull after excercise but you can't do this with youngsters).
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Mmm, we've twitched when clipping before as my OHs horse hates the clippers in certain areas and it chilled him out a bit. Only using our hands though, none of these stick things I've seen people talk about.
 
flamehead said:
Mmm, we've twitched when clipping before as my OHs horse hates the clippers in certain areas and it chilled him out a bit. Only using our hands though, none of these stick things I've seen people talk about.
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The thick rope and stick is purely for ease. If you have the stick attached to the rope it allows you to feed it up the side of the headcollar to keep the twitch in place. Ideal if you don't have someone to hold the horse for you :) You don't use the stick to twitch with - just to hold it in place...
 
Oh right! Well I'm about to spend two weeks desensitising him to clippers so fingers crossed I wont need to do it much longer...!
 
Ugh dont say that! Tbf its more the boredom that annoys him - he'll let you do about 80% and then gets arsey with you.

We'll see! I bought my OH some lister libertys and lister librettos (the trimmers) for his bday so we'll see how we get on - will try with the trimmers first!!!!
 
flamehead said:
But the examples given in the rest of the thread are when either blindfolding is used for a medical reason (i.e. vet needs it), or when the horses are panicking and terrified. Surely, if a horse is panicking and terrified to go into a stall, it shouldn't be forced in??
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Sorry but I disagree, blindfolds are used to deal with panicking and terrified horses but also with horses that are over excited with hi-jinx. I did not use a blindfold on my boy because he was panicked/terrified, he was a naive little boy and needed to be transported, I find that upon seeing that he was going to take umbridge with loading the best route in that particular case was to blindfold, thus negating struggle if I had got into that relm he would have probably begun to pick a fight over boxing in the future.

Whatever the reason for hi-jinx, whether it be panic or excitement, and whatever the need, going into the stalls, loading, vet, farrier, clipping etc. It is far better to find and use a method that works for you and causes the least stress to the horse as possible.

When the weather is better, I intend to begin proper ground work with my boy to solve the problem of boxing, I know very little about the racing industry but I suspect the horse in question will not have this, he is a tool for earning money, if he doesn't go in the stall he doesn't race, if he doesn't race, he is not worth them keeping, if they do not keep him where will he end up? In a stable at a sales with his passport nailed to the door and free to a good home written on it? THIS IS HAPPENING!

OP I understand that it may look from the outside to be cruel, but the horse it able to remain calmer and in less danger that way and do his job, I would think that for a racing horse running a race is a necessity, he runs and runs well, why should it matter that they blindfold him if it means he remains calmer and focussed then that is good enough for me. What would you have them do? Send him to the sales? They wont be taking the time to go to races to practice getting him in the stall, this is business to them they have a method with him and it works, lucky horse is what I say, his future seems secure at the moment which is more than I can say for a lot of horses at the moment.
 
flamehead said:
Wow, another person who feels the need to be totally unnecessarily rude!

I have said that I am keen to learn, and I now know that blindfolding may be a useful way of calming a horse down. If ever I needed to calm a horse down, I may now use it! However, the whole situation still doesn't sit right with me - pulling a horses tail and shoving from behind? But I'm glad to have learnt about the benefits of blindfolding an animal.

I also made myself laugh this morning when my yearling got my coat stuck over her head - and stood stock still until I went to rescue her! She wanted to show me how it works, obviously lol!

I'm not for banning racing, as like I've already said I have been to see it and I have enjoyed it. Likewise polo, I loved playing for the few weeks I played, but the cruelty just didn't sit right with me then so I stopped. But I am still entitled to my own opinions and I won't be shouted down!
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you are the one doing the shouting my dear, i was NOT rude but i believe in straight talking, i never said about not being allowed your own opinions did i? you'll have to toughen up if you want to survive on the forum!!God knows what goes on at polo these days regarding cruelty-i suspect not alot, there was certainly none in my polo days- Horses for courses, Flamehead!
 
Ravenwood said:
Really? Where have you been all your life? Or are you very young?

Its a common tactic ;)
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Thanks for that horrid comment, Ravenwood, I've only owned my own horse since January and although my OH has had horses since forever, 4 years ago I couldn't tie up a haynet. I try my bloody best to learn and in the year and a half we've lived together I've gone from "aww look at the pretty ponies" to doing all our horses at both ends of the day for weeks on end (and all that comes with that). I may only be 20 but I try my best but I'm still learning - as is everyone! If you think you know it all, give up, as they say.
 
Interesting, rosiefronfelen, as I have nearly 3 times the posts you have...I've obviously survived, then!

Your idea of 'straight talking' appears to be just being rude - but I've witnessed that throughout the rest of the board, so who am I kidding thinking you'd be different with me!

I have PMed you about the polo.
 
queenbee said:
Sorry but I disagree, blindfolds are used to deal with panicking and terrified horses but also with horses that are over excited with hi-jinx. I did not use a blindfold on my boy because he was panicked/terrified, he was a naive little boy and needed to be transported, I find that upon seeing that he was going to take umbridge with loading the best route in that particular case was to blindfold, thus negating struggle if I had got into that relm he would have probably begun to pick a fight over boxing in the future.

Whatever the reason for hi-jinx, whether it be panic or excitement, and whatever the need, going into the stalls, loading, vet, farrier, clipping etc. It is far better to find and use a method that works for you and causes the least stress to the horse as possible.

When the weather is better, I intend to begin proper ground work with my boy to solve the problem of boxing, I know very little about the racing industry but I suspect the horse in question will not have this, he is a tool for earning money, if he doesn't go in the stall he doesn't race, if he doesn't race, he is not worth them keeping, if they do not keep him where will he end up? In a stable at a sales with his passport nailed to the door and free to a good home written on it? THIS IS HAPPENING!

OP I understand that it may look from the outside to be cruel, but the horse it able to remain calmer and in less danger that way and do his job, I would think that for a racing horse running a race is a necessity, he runs and runs well, why should it matter that they blindfold him if it means he remains calmer and focussed then that is good enough for me. What would you have them do? Send him to the sales? They wont be taking the time to go to races to practice getting him in the stall, this is business to them they have a method with him and it works, lucky horse is what I say, his future seems secure at the moment which is more than I can say for a lot of horses at the moment.
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I am aware that racehorses are ending up at sales in such a state. Perhaps I found it upsetting as, although I'm aware that to many people horses are just money making machines (mine seems to eat money, but never mind..!), mine are pets and I wouldnt ever treat them poorly just because I wanted them to do something they didn't (again, with the caveat about danger).

The comment about other horses having uncertain futures is unrelated - I feel strongly about the indiscriminate breeding issue but that is rather separate to racing.

In the future I shall just not watch the racing.
 
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