Effects of putting horse on 2 x bute per day

[Marigold4]

I have a mare who is 15 this year. I bought her 7 years ago, backed her, but for various behavioural reasons she was then retired. She is mostly out 24/7 but comes in at night during the worst of the weather. She has company and a shelter in her field. She has always been somewhat "wonky", but we have struggled to get to the bottom of it, despite extensive vet investigations there is nothing to see. Vet said she would pass a vetting. Last year she became unsound in both fronts (1 to 2/10th), one worse than the other, investigated by vet and diagnosed as navicular. She is also on-off lame in one hind but mostly she looks ok on it. We have xrayed neck and hinds but there is nothing to see. She is obviously uncomfortable in front however and doesn't look that happy.

She has had a course of cartophen to no effect. She is on Boswellia (no noticeable effect) I have tried two weeks of 1 x bute (still lame). I am thinking, with vet approval, of upping the dose of Bute to 2 per day.

Is 2 Bute per day sustainable? Is it too much and will it cause other issues? Should I call it a day as nothing seems to work?

 

[I'm Dun]

Its sustainable until its not then you need to call time, some go on their entire life with no issues, some dont. It must be so frustrating for you, you've tried so much with her. Does she block sound to her feet? I cant remember what you've said about it previously.

 

[ihatework]

2 Bute a day (On a horse rather than pony) is probably on my personal upper limit of maintenance acceptability. And it would be mindful that I would want to be confident it was making a significant difference to quality of life. It’s the sort of level you need to have in the back of your mind that a difficult decision is coming.

 

[Marigold4]

Its sustainable until its not then you need to call time, some go on their entire life with no issues, some dont. It must be so frustrating for you, you've tried so much with her. Does she block sound to her feet? I cant remember what you've said about it previously.

The vet felt that because she was only 1 to 2 tenths lame, blocking the foot wouldn't be very useful. She said it really needs to be more than that to be conclusive from nerve blocks. We xrayed and she has navicular changes. I've struggled a bit to accept it is navicular but we can't find anything else.

 

[I'm Dun]

even more frustrating! has she seen a good osteo/chiro vet? Changes don't correlate to lameness with navicular so its all tricky to diagnose without an MRI which I wouldn't do either.

 

[ihatework]

The vet felt that because she was only 1 to 2 tenths lame, blocking the foot wouldn't be very useful. She said it really needs to be more than that to be conclusive from nerve blocks. We xrayed and she has navicular changes. I've struggled a bit to accept it is navicular but we can't find anything else.

Interesting. Sometimes when you block they become more lame. Sometimes they are, for example, 3/10ths on one foot and 4/10ths on the other but present as 1/10th

 

[Marigold4]

2 Bute a day (On a horse rather than pony) is probably on my personal upper limit of maintenance acceptability. And it would be mindful that I would want to be confident it was making a significant difference to quality of life. It’s the sort of level you need to have in the back of your mind that a difficult decision is coming.

Yes, I think I am working towards that decision. She is quite a finely built thoroughbredy type but only 14.3 so 2 bute would be a lot. I hadn't really thought about dose and size, so thanks for that. I might try 1.5 first. I don't want to make any decisions yet as it's still a miserable time of year - for people and horses!. She may perk up when the grass comes through and the sun (finally!) comes out.

 

[Marigold4]

Interesting. Sometimes when you block they become more lame. Sometimes they are, for example, 3/10ths on one foot and 4/10ths on the other but present as 1/10th

The other issue is her temperament and my facilities. The only flattish surface we have is out on the tarmac lane. She is quite highly strung, and has not been out of her field much for the last few years, so her adrenalin levels during a trot up are high. Vet felt we wouldn't get much sense out of her to make a judgment with a nerve block.

We discussed what we might do if we found the issue wasn't navicular but most things require box rest, and I'm not doing that with her - she would hate it. Her feet are well-balanced and no thrush so we can't get any improvement there. She has thinnish soles though. I've had my forage analysed and am adding copper and zinc on Forageplus recommendations in the hope that that will help. Now it's not so muddy, she can wear hoofboots which may help.

 

[Archangel]

I've had great results with Equioxx - it might be worth a trial. My 34 year old has one a day. He is 520kg and 15.2.
It's a tiny palatable tablet (because to him bute/Danilon are toxic waste ) - it does work out more expensive though.

I also swear by micronised linseed to improve general mobility.

ETS - just looked up what I last paid £119 for 60 tablets.

 

[Marigold4]

I've had great results with Equioxx - it might be worth a trial. My 34 year old has one a day. He is 520kg and 15.2.
It's a tiny palatable tablet (because to him bute/Danilon are toxic waste ) - it does work out more expensive though.

I also swear by micronised linseed to improve general mobility.

ETS - just looked up what I last paid £119 for 60 tablets.

Thanks for suggesting this. I had a quick look at Equioxx and it looks useful. Did you have to get a prescription? Can it be used long term as one website said 14 days only?

 

[Archangel]

Yes, prescription. I queried the 14 days with the vet, but she was happy for it to be used long term. My horse has been on it about 6 months - no side effects other than jumping out of the field because he feels like a superhero

He has annual blood tests anyway as he is on Prascend as well.

 

[meleeka]

Thanks for suggesting this. I had a quick look at Equioxx and it looks useful. Did you have to get a prescription? Can it be used long term as one website said 14 days only?

They can stay on it long term. If you read the instructions on a box of Bute it says the same.

There are many different pain medications and some can be used with others when you are still trying to work things out.

 

[Marigold4]

even more frustrating! has she seen a good osteo/chiro vet? Changes don't correlate to lameness with navicular so its all tricky to diagnose without an MRI which I wouldn't do either.

She regularly sees a good physio who says she has tight muscles over shoulder and where her loin meets her quarters and says this is consistent with front limb lameness and the way she is holding herself because of it.

 

[SEL]

I had Mills (650kg) on 2 for years - but when 2 was no longer enough I knew we were heading for the end.

 

[Equi]

I’d probably want to trial 1.5-2 bute a day to rule out the pain but I’m not sure I would be happy to have a horse on that amount of bute for the rest of its life at only 15. I’m not sure what the next step would be, beyond nerve blocks.

 

[CinnamonChristmasCookie]

Mine was on 2 Danilon daily for a few years. I don’t believe it had much of an adverse effect, he was certainly less lame but was basically a field ornament even before this.

 

[MuddyMonster]

It's the upper of what I'd be comfortable giving long term. But I'm also not comfortable keeping a horse in pain or discomfort so it may be the better of a few other options here.

I don't think I'd be comfortable retiring my native on more than one a day personally, but that's not to say it's wrong. I'd probably be OK with 2 a day for a limited period of time before the end providing the horse was very closely monitored.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I have a mare who is 15 this year. I bought her 7 years ago, backed her, but for various behavioural reasons she was then retired. She is mostly out 24/7 but comes in at night during the worst of the weather. She has company and a shelter in her field. She has always been somewhat "wonky", but we have struggled to get to the bottom of it, despite extensive vet investigations there is nothing to see. Vet said she would pass a vetting. Last year she became unsound in both fronts (1 to 2/10th), one worse than the other, investigated by vet and diagnosed as navicular. She is also on-off lame in one hind but mostly she looks ok on it. We have xrayed neck and hinds but there is nothing to see. She is obviously uncomfortable in front however and doesn't look that happy.

She has had a course of cartophen to no effect. She is on Boswellia (no noticeable effect) I have tried two weeks of 1 x bute (still lame). I am thinking, with vet approval, of upping the dose of Bute to 2 per day.

Is 2 Bute per day sustainable? Is it too much and will it cause other issues? Should I call it a day as nothing seems to work?

Just a thought.

I have two with navicular one advanced one not, the advanced one is on 1 danilon a day. *Retired*

The other has dental impression material and pads, we tried alu shoes on the advanced but being the farrier did her feet terribly and cause the petal bone to point up we took them off, and now barefoot. You could speak to your farrier and ask him or even try for one shoeing with dental material, . We took my ID mare off the pads and dental and she wasn't happy, so back on they go and much happier horse. Could be worth ago and see, then you may be able to reduce the danilon to one a day.

I was always told most horses die before the danilon causes too much issue, and if you give her supplements to help the organs then you are putting good stuff in to combat the bad.

Milk thistle Flaxeed and vit E

 

[Birker2020]

I have a mare who is 15 this year. I bought her 7 years ago, backed her, but for various behavioural reasons she was then retired. She is mostly out 24/7 but comes in at night during the worst of the weather. She has company and a shelter in her field. She has always been somewhat "wonky", but we have struggled to get to the bottom of it, despite extensive vet investigations there is nothing to see. Vet said she would pass a vetting. Last year she became unsound in both fronts (1 to 2/10th), one worse than the other, investigated by vet and diagnosed as navicular. She is also on-off lame in one hind but mostly she looks ok on it. We have xrayed neck and hinds but there is nothing to see. She is obviously uncomfortable in front however and doesn't look that happy.

She has had a course of cartophen to no effect. She is on Boswellia (no noticeable effect) I have tried two weeks of 1 x bute (still lame). I am thinking, with vet approval, of upping the dose of Bute to 2 per day.

Is 2 Bute per day sustainable? Is it too much and will it cause other issues? Should I call it a day as nothing seems to work?

I only put my previous horse on two bute a day for the last few days of their life. They weighed in at 720kg and was 17.1hh.

I had Lari on two bute a day until we found out was wrong with him which we did.

I've always investigated any issue my horses have had and they've had treatment. Bailey cost me in excess if £35k with all the treatment options and resulting vets bills.
.
The vet said low level bute will never hurt and Bailey was on half a sachet a day for about 8 yrs.

 

[Marigold4]

Just a thought.

I have two with navicular one advanced one not, the advanced one is on 1 danilon a day. *Retired*

The other has dental impression material and pads, we tried alu shoes on the advanced but being the farrier did her feet terribly and cause the petal bone to point up we took them off, and now barefoot. You could speak to your farrier and ask him or even try for one shoeing with dental material, . We took my ID mare off the pads and dental and she wasn't happy, so back on they go and much happier horse. Could be worth ago and see, then you may be able to reduce the danilon to one a day.

I was always told most horses die before the danilon causes too much issue, and if you give her supplements to help the organs then you are putting good stuff in to combat the bad.

Milk thistle Flaxeed and vit E

Thanks for your reply. She is not shod and never has been. Vet did suggest remedial shoeing, but I'm not in favour. She can wear hoofboots with padding in the summer and that may help. It's just been so muddy recently.

 

[Marigold4]

It's the upper of what I'd be comfortable giving long term. But I'm also not comfortable keeping a horse in pain or discomfort so it may be the better of a few other options here.

I don't think I'd be comfortable retiring my native on more than one a day personally, but that's not to say it's wrong. I'd probably be OK with 2 a day for a limited period of time before the end providing the horse was very closely monitored.

I'm hoping things will improve once it's warmer and I can get her back down to one. But then again, the ground will be harder, so maybe warmer weather won't help. We'll have to see and play things by ear. But I agree, I wouldn't want to put her on 2 a day for very long.

 

[maya2008]

I think you have to try short term at least, because if it doesn’t work, then you have a very immediate answer.

However…I had a horse who had ‘navicular’ and it was actually caused by very difficult to see, very minor arthritis in one of the bones in the hoof itself. Sensitive TB who had one injection and that settled it for a very long time. So in your shoes I would get a further opinion on the x rays just to check.

 

[Marigold4]

I only put my previous horse on two bute a day for the last few days of their life. They weighed in at 720kg and was 17.1hh.

I had Lari on two bute a day until we found out was wrong with him which we did.

I've always investigated any issue my horses have had and they've had treatment. Bailey cost me in excess if £35k with all the treatment options and resulting vets bills.
.
The vet said low level bute will never hurt and Bailey was on half a sachet a day for about 8 yrs.

I've spent a couple of grand investigating the obvious things and treating with medication such as cartrophen. But when we thought it through, most other things that might be wrong with her would involve box rest or surgery, neither of which I would want to do. She is a non-ridden broodmare and would be miserable at a hospital or on box rest. I might do more for a different horse, but I'm trying to find a happy medium.

 

[Marigold4]

I think you have to try short term at least, because if it doesn’t work, then you have a very immediate answer.

However…I had a horse who had ‘navicular’ and it was actually caused by very difficult to see, very minor arthritis in one of the bones in the hoof itself. Sensitive TB who had one injection and that settled it for a very long time. So in your shoes I would get a further opinion on the x rays just to check.

Thanks. I'll ask the vet to check but she's pretty thorough.

 

[Birker2020]

I've spent a couple of grand investigating the obvious things and treating with medication such as cartrophen. But when we thought it through, most other things that might be wrong with her would involve box rest or surgery, neither of which I would want to do. She is a non-ridden broodmare and would be miserable at a hospital or on box rest. I might do more for a different horse, but I'm trying to find a happy medium.

I totally get that.

Bailey did get a mouth ulcer and that was the only issue in all those years.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I've spent a couple of grand investigating the obvious things and treating with medication such as cartrophen. But when we thought it through, most other things that might be wrong with her would involve box rest or surgery, neither of which I would want to do. She is a non-ridden broodmare and would be miserable at a hospital or on box rest. I might do more for a different horse, but I'm trying to find a happy medium.

Hoof boots are a good idea mine has scoot boots or you could make padding out of nappy and duct tape when ground hard.

Just had a thought ask farrier if with all this rain, maybe her soles are soft. I know my welsh A has gone a little footy with the rain and farrier said she has thin soles now , but never used too. You could see if she ids with hoof testers. I use Keratex hoof hardener with great results when footy.

 

[I'm Dun]

I'm hoping things will improve once it's warmer and I can get her back down to one. But then again, the ground will be harder, so maybe warmer weather won't help. We'll have to see and play things by ear. But I agree, I wouldn't want to put her on 2 a day for very long.

As a very general rule soft tissue problems do much better on hard ground, and arthritic problems do much worse, and the other way round for soft wet ground.

 

[honetpot]

Have you tried paracetamol? I used it and reduced the amount of bute. It should have less side effects than NSAIDS.

https://www.coachhousevets.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Paracetamol-Cascade.pdf

Inexpensive Pain Drug Gets a Boost for Treating Horses

Researchers found acetaminophen is readily and rapidly absorbed, and most of the horses appeared to feel and move better.

thehorse.com

The biggest problem is buying the amounts needed cheaply and some online pharmacies charge large amounts for what is a very cheap drug.

 

[blitznbobs]

The upshot is there is 3 choices

1) let the horse suffer and don’t give it pain killers
2) give the horse painkillers and see how things go - knowing that it may or may not cause other issues at which point PTS is necessary
3) PTS Now

2 looks like the option I would choose

 

[blodwyn1]

My 27 yr old has been on 1 bute a day for yrs and lately had declined a new young vet suggested equioxx and it's taken 10 yes off her!