Egypt horses & horrid tourists...

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MagicMelon

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Ive just got back from a holiday in Egypt. I was expecting to see some pretty dreadful animals over there and I did. Donkeys ridden by 3 members of a family at the same time for example... However, it was the horses who really stung. In Luxor, they have SO many horse and carriages offered to tourists. Some of the horses looked in very good nic, but some extremely thin. The owners (sometimes children, possibly 12 yr olds) seemed to think nothing of cantering them along the tarmac streets with extremely thin dodgy looking shoes on. They often yanked the horses to an abrupt halt which meant the horse hind legs practically overtook the fronts. Most horses had had their legs fired. Clearly pregnant mares were still in full work and even foals where out with their mothers on extremely busy roads - they trotted alongside trying to keep up and suckling whenever they got the chance (not often). What a terrible start to their life. I did not see one water bucket... I believe they are led down to the Nile to drink every morning before work and thats it ALL day (in the stifling heat). The horses are deeply depressed, they have no life in them at all, I assume from dehydration or being beaten into shape.

But what I was most mortified about was that tourists still seemed perfectly happy to get into these carriages being pulled by something which resembled a hat-rack! Are tourists blind to the condition of these horses? Surely they can SEE the better conditioned ones and can compare?! Most of them where Americans so its not like the tourists are from places where they might not encounter horses etc.
 
Erm.... firstly it is horrible to see these things, but we really shouldnt judge other countries standards by our own wrapped in bubble wrap over loved horses.

Secondly my OH isnt AT ALL horsey and he wouldnt know if a horse looked in poor condition or not, so I dont see how Joe public could either......
 
Actually I remember holidaying in Majorca and seeing a similar sight, horses pulling little carriages for tourists but so so so skinny it made me want to weep.
Thank god we do wrap our horses up in bubble wrap, if they all looked like the ones abroad, we'd all be had up on cruelty charges
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Erm.... firstly it is horrible to see these things, but we really shouldnt judge other countries standards by our own wrapped in bubble wrap over loved horses.

Secondly my OH isnt AT ALL horsey and he wouldnt know if a horse looked in poor condition or not, so I dont see how Joe public could either......

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I am afraid I have to agree - its easy to have a a concience when you have enough food to eat, a roof over your head and enough money to go on holiday. For horse lovers its hard to see such sites, but thats why I support the ILPH. They have load of projects abroad that help horses like these, by educating owners and helping them to understand that the better they look after their animals, the better they will be to earn them a living.

Why not go on the ILPHs website and look at some of their overseas projects, or perhaps write to them suggesting this is an area that could be looked at/targetted in the future.

As far as Americans go, what do you expect!
 
lexiedhb - Im by no means under any illusion that the Egyptian horses should be spoilt like ours are here. I understand that of course, there they are working horses and NOT for pleasure and fun like here. However, surely the bare basics should be in place with any horse wherever in the world - for example water and enough food?! Not giving a working horse water ALL day long in what can be a very hot country is pretty horrendous dont you agree? Its not like they cant get any, the roads run right beside the Nile...

So you dont think your non-horsey OH would notice the difference between 2 horses standing side by side - one being quite plump and alert and the other with its hip and rib bones poking through, head practically on the floor?! Bloody hell! Sorry, but I have non-horsey friends and Im pretty certain they'd work it out!

magicmillbrook - Yeah, I plan to support the Brooke who seem to do a lot in Egypt (mainly Cairo).
 
If you are concerned about horse welfare abroad why not take a look at the work the the Brook Street Hospital or the Inetrnational League for the Protection of horses is doing?
 
Im not saying its right, but if it was the norm then no we wouldnt be had up on cruelty charges!

In other countries horses are disposable (again im not saying its right), but they do their job until they cant, and are replaced! Its just a cultural difference.

I went riding in Tunisia, and although the horses were slim (most are in hotter climes), they were well muscles and reasonably well taken care or, bar the odd missing shoe here and there!
 
I never said it was right... just how it is! And you didnt say the comparison was between a plump pony and a hlf dead one!!!
 
I went to Egypt about 12 years ago and was really quite upset about the state of the horses then, in fact I avoided using the Kalesh's altogether (bit of a nightmare as being of a fairish complexion and with my mum I was considered fair game, good job my mum doesn't like camels cos she was offered plenty in exchange for me!!). We were on a river cruise though with organised excursions, so on one occasion we had to use the carriage's supplied, but the tour company had only booked enough to take about 2/3rds of the people off our boat the mile or so upto the temple. This meant the whole thing ended up being a chariot race cos all the drivers wanted to get back first to do the other 1/3rd of the people off the boat. It was a complete nightmare and I ended up in tears as this poor toast-rack of a horse was whipped a mile along a tarmac road at a gallop with 5-6 people on it's carriage. I wrote to Hayes & Jarvis when I got back to complain that they should have booked enough carriages to take either 1/2 or all of the tourists (so they didn't need to race) but got a very bog standard reply so I guess it's something they get a lot
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I'm afraid though that it is Africa and when you see how cheap human life is it's little wonder that animals are used and abused in such a way. All you can do is support the charities that work in these places (Brooke) to improve the lot of the poor beasts that work there
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Secondly my OH isnt AT ALL horsey and he wouldnt know if a horse looked in poor condition or not, so I dont see how Joe public could either......

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I'm not so sure about that. I think people are a little more discerning than that. It's not rocket science after all......
 
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I thought your point about them being galloped along tarmac roads was interesting.....I've seen lots of people out hunting do this here....

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Oh please, it's hardly the same thing.

Have you ever seen pictures of these animals? It's just heartbraking.
 
i'm sure any member of the public can tell when a horse isn't in great condition, if they saw a dog with its ribs sticking out they would notice,and want to tell someone why should it be different for the horses??

i kno as a horse lover i would be very upset seein horses in that condition infront of my eyes, it bad enough seein pictures, but all we can do is fully show our support charities. we have to remember tho alot of the people who keep horses/donkeys/mules love them very much and try their best to care for them however the just don't have the money
 
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I thought your point about them being galloped along tarmac roads was interesting.....I've seen lots of people out hunting do this here....

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Well personally I wouldnt even dream of cantering on a road. And the problem is that this isnt done just at weekends (or however often you hunt), these horses are regularily cantered around throughout the day (often in searing temperatures!). They also wear dreadful shoes which are very oddly shaped and barely nailed on so are very slippy.

BigBird146 - It is pretty dreadful that your tour company didnt look into it more. Also, the fact is that galloping along any road (let alone in Egypt where the driving is insane!) in a carriage is bloody dangerous. Im sure they'd get sued if something happened (ie. the horse fell and brought the carriage (and tourists) down). Maybe thats why I saw them cantering along, to get back to the cruise boats.
 
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Secondly my OH isnt AT ALL horsey and he wouldnt know if a horse looked in poor condition or not, so I dont see how Joe public could either......

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I'm not so sure about that. I think people are a little more discerning than that. It's not rocket science after all......

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Its not rocket science no but if you come from a very NON animal orientated background how on earth would you know that when a horses hip bones are sticking out its in a really bad way, but when a cows are its fine!!
 
i'm sorry but i am the only horsey person in my family, and i am sure my family could tell when a horse is in bad condition, agree with amymay its not rocket science
 
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Its not rocket science no but if you come from a very NON animal orientated background how on earth would you know that when a horses hip bones are sticking out its in a really bad way, but when a cows are its fine!!

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Because as I said, there were other horses (in good condition) to compare. It would be different if ALL the horses were in the same bad condition but they werent. I know nothing about cows, but if I saw a heap in a field then Im pretty sure I could spot the underweight ones!
 
Jeez...... ok so we have differing opinions of joe public.... you say they are clever (and actaully care) and should be able to spot a "poor" horse... I say they probably cant.......... but also if you're right then do these people really have no grasp of right and wrong........ I take it they used the carriages with the skinnier horses?

Maybe its that they just dont care about animal welfare the way most of us do.... which is such a shame as if they stopped using the skinner ones maybe their owners would ttreat them better!
 
Problem is, if they stopped using the skinnier ones, they would probably earn even less to feed them, so they would end up even skinnier... catch 22. I knew this but just couldn't bring myself to use the carriages as it was so upsetting and I don't go on holiday to end up in tears!!
 
Very true......... i think the problem is they either spend the money on the horse they have got, keep it well, fit, look after it, and it lasts them longer, or spend the absolute minimum on the horse they have so when they have knackered it, they can go buy a new one.....
 
Ahhh, nothing like the cultural difference card to explain away cruelty to animals or humans, couldn't just be that they dont give a toss about others suffering, not saying we should get involved in other countries affairs, but lets not make excuses over it, how difficult would it be to let them drink TWICE a day, not bloody rocket science is it.
 
I never said it was right if you read my posts just how it is! You have been brought up in a culture that cherish's its animals, and so have this point of view... they have been brought up in a culture that doesnt hence they think nothing wrong with making their animals work all day waterless... IT IS a culture thing....... the same way some asian countries keep dogs as pets for a few years before making them into stew...... I dont think its right, but they cant see anything wrong with it!
 
I was on holiday in Egypt at the beginning of Feb and although some of the horses i saw were slightly thin they were on the whole well looked after. i.e. had well fitting tack and looked after feet, clean water to drink etc.
I didn't visit Luxor so can't comment as i was in Sharm el Sheikh which is VERY touristy so probably not a true reflection.
I did meet a lovely man on our local beach that had 3 beautiful Arabs, all well watered and fed and kept in the shade. When i spoke to him and asked about the horses you could tell he genuinely cared for them. In fact he told me they have regular visits and clinics from ILPH as to how to look after horses correctly, free jabs and teeth cheeks etc.

I'd like to think that man wasn't a one off although i know not all horses in Eqypt aren't as lucky as the ones i met.
 
To be fair, the Brook Hospital in Cairo puts an awful lot of time and effort into teaching the drivers how to care for their animals better. Unfortunately, there are only so many Brook animal workers, and there are an awful lot of donkeys and horses for them to oversee in Egypt, and indeed the rest of Africa.

Maybe a practical thing to do would be to make a donation to the Brook, and write to them, telling them about the condition of the horses and whereabouts they were based, and asking if they could send a representative to work with the drivers at some point very soon.
 
I agree that it is different in other countries but it is still very upsetting to see the life some of these animals live. When I was in Egypt/Jordan last year we went to Petra and it was horrible to see really skinny, scabby and lame horses made to gallop up and down the steep hill leading to Petra just because loads of people were too fat/unfit/lazy to walk. It wouldn't have been so bad if they were just walking but in order to make more money they went scarily fast up and down the cobblestone paths. Me and my mum spent the whole time in horror at the horses and donkeys and would definately put me off going again. Only got one photo of the horses and it's not very good but you can get a vague idea.

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On the other hand I went riding in sharm el sheikh at a horse club. I got put on a lovely Arab mare called Shakira who was very happy to go fast across the desert or walk. She was in fab condition as all the horses were there. They were at least as well looked after as the horses in Britain: after being ridden they were hosed down and walked round for 10 minuted before being put in their air conditioned stables. It wasn't a posh place and certainly not rich so I don't think there is really an excuse for the abuse that goes on if some people know how to care for their animals but others appear not to know.
Here's some pictures of Shakira (please ignore the minger on board!)
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My friend was so horrified by the condition of one of the carriage/taxi horses outside her hotel in Egypt, that she offered the driver more than enough to pay his fare for a day to let the horse rest under a tree and have something to drink.
He was dumfounded and highly amused by this suggestion, refused the money and continued to race the horse up and down the road with the other drivers to keep himself amused in his spare time.
 
i went to egypt and luxor whilst i was there we were with the adventure company and so part of it was to have a carriage ride to one of the temples mee and two non horsey mates went in a cart i picked as it was the horse i felt looked in best condition, the girls with me would have happuly got into any. we were cantering very fast down the roads and the drivers were racing each other and over taking cars ect. when you have about 8 carriages with skinny horses racing each other its not the best feeling in the world they then ask you if you would like a go at driving my mates werent horsey and didnt want to and looked at me knowing that i was horsey i polietly declined because i didnt want to be the cause of the suffering, my mum and brother on the other hand and were very novicey and had a go at driving while my mum was lecturing the driver about how going slower will mean the shoes last longer hense saving money plus if he goes slower his horses will last longer (their horse was 7 and ready to retire) but at the end of the day its a living and the faster they go the more customers they get the more money they make i have photos but haven't uploaded them
 
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