Egypt horses & horrid tourists...

Fiirstly, I am not disagreeing that the situation is bad. We must remember though that these animals are FITTER than many of our animals, being lean not thin. We tend to see fat as ideal. Then there are those that ARE unerweight. If tourists can be stopped from using the thin, sick, injured animals, then the owners will realise they must look after them better. catch 22 though, as without the fares, they have no money to feed them up and rest them to start with. The Brooke, Donkey Sanctuary, SPANA, and a number of other charities work tirelessly to teach these owners how to keep their animals fir and healthy and able to work, so we must support these charities.
 
A friend and I visited Egypt about 7 years ago. We spent 7 days in Luxor and then 3 days in Cairo.
Whilst in Luxor we saw what we thought were some pretty poor looking horses and some dog lame ones too. Unfortunately when we got to Cairo we realised how good the horses in Luxor were! The horses used for the tourist caleshes were positively fat compared to the ones we saw working in Cairo.
As a vet travelling with an ex-vet nurse we felt obligated to visit the Brooke when we were in Cairo. We took a taxi which was driving further and further into the sh1tty part of Cairo and I have to admit we were a bit worried. I expected a little old-fashioned vet clinic but after being given a guided tour by the vet there I have to say it had some state of the art facilities. The patients however were not in such a good state and my friend was actually in tears at the state of a little grey horse that was quite emaciated and criss-crossed with pin firing scars over a large tumour on its rump. There was a big communal yard where horses that were beyond redemption were given a day of rest in the shade with food and water before being pts.
We saw some pretty disturbing sights I can tell you....however it is impossible to judge these people by the same rules as we would in this country. Some of these people are extremely poor and with no welfare state, basically if the horse can't work (for example if its lame) then the family starves. This sadly means a lot of horses/donkeys are worked in very poor conditions. The Brooke does try to educate the owners in that if they look after their animals better they are likely to make a better living. The tourist rep we met in Luxor also tried to reinforce this by telling everyone to only use caleshes with healthy looking animals -so that we rewarded the people that were making an effort and so encourage better welfare. The Brooke also spend funds to provide water troughs at the caleshe stops so there should at least be water available there. They also have units where IV fluids can be given to dehydrated animals - it sounds strange by our standards but they actually queue up with their horses and get IV fluids and then go off to work again!!!
The sight of some of the horses we saw at the Brooke will stay with me forever and that is why I support them still as a charity. I had some strange idea that myself and my vet nurse friend would be able to help out in a veterinary way on our visit to the hospital but in the end we helped out in the most practical way we could - we left money. The only way to improve these animals lives is to educate their owners but even then with the levels of poverty in the country I think the animals will always look poor by western standards. Sadly there is no easy solution.
 
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Erm.... firstly it is horrible to see these things, but we really shouldnt judge other countries standards by our own wrapped in bubble wrap over loved horses.
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Why shouldn't we judge things from our own standards?
 
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I was on holiday in Egypt at the beginning of Feb and although some of the horses i saw were slightly thin they were on the whole well looked after. i.e. had well fitting tack and looked after feet, clean water to drink etc.
I didn't visit Luxor so can't comment as i was in Sharm el Sheikh which is VERY touristy so probably not a true reflection.
I did meet a lovely man on our local beach that had 3 beautiful Arabs, all well watered and fed and kept in the shade. When i spoke to him and asked about the horses you could tell he genuinely cared for them. In fact he told me they have regular visits and clinics from ILPH as to how to look after horses correctly, free jabs and teeth cheeks etc.

I'd like to think that man wasn't a one off although i know not all horses in Eqypt aren't as lucky as the ones i met.

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Nice to hear of some getting looked after.
 
get involved.......my "fave" charity.....


http://www.thebrooke.org/

instead of sending out christmas cards this year to forum members, friends, i donated the money i would have spent to the Brooke...

i sent enough to pay for a vet for a year!!!!

much better way of spending than buying xmas cards that are, eventually just thrown away...
 
They are the same in the Dominican Republic on the pony trekking excursions (which i couldn't bring myself to take part in ) The ponies where walked miles in stifiling heat 3 times a day with rather 'hefty' (possibly of the american persuasion)tourists on board. It's not nice to see and I couldn't bear to see my boy Wishy in such a sorry state, however I donate to the ILPH in a bid to put a stop to such cruelty. I suggest many of us do the same!!!
 
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Erm.... firstly it is horrible to see these things, but we really shouldnt judge other countries standards by our own wrapped in bubble wrap over loved horses.
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Why shouldn't we judge things from our own standards?

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Becasue we are lucky enough to have jobs, houses and horses as a luxury we afford with "spare" cash....... Im sure they dont have the same luxuries, so it becomes very difficult to judge. That horse probably feeds their familes, which take priority over feeding the horse itself....... but like I have said it doesnt make it right, but thats by my standard.
 
I saw some pretty horrible sights in Cairo, overly thin horses, one being driven tied to the back of a flat-bed truck, etc. But the thing that annoyed me most was a guy I intended to hire a horse from to ride round the pyramids. He insisted if I wanted to go without their "guide" that I show him how I ride, fair enough, I got on and walked and trotted a little arab mare up and down the road. She was in good condition physically but very tense. I think she realised I wasn't going to hurt her as she soon relaxed. But then the guy grabbed hold of her, saying "No, no, you cannot ride" (after 20 years??!) "this is how we ride in Egypt" and proceeded to whip/kick/haul the poor mare in the mouth so she cantered/stumbled/reared her way up the street. He seemed to think I would be impressed by his "horsemanship". Needless to say I pretty much told him what I thought and left him to it.
Incidentally this same man told me the pyramids were a seven mile hike from his shop. On looking out the window I could clearly see them less than 500 metres away!
I'm sure this kind of thing is in the minority but it leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth.
 
I know all that!

I do not find it difficult to judge
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...so I will continue to judge

I believe that people who fail to recognise the signs of pain/exhaustion/ despair etc in an animal are either missing their dollop of intelligence or, more likely, they are hedonistic, selfish f**** who will have a lot to answer for at the pearly gates
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But hey, that's just my opinion
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hmm I agree that it is horrible to see Horses or any other animal in this state but sadly the people often fare little better. It's a case of their kids or the Horse eating if theres food.

However sometimes there's no excuse.
 
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I know all that!

I do not find it difficult to judge
confused.gif
...so I will continue to judge

I believe that people who fail to recognise the signs of pain/exhaustion/ despair etc in an animal are either missing their dollop of intelligence or, more likely, they are hedonistic, selfish f**** who will have a lot to answer for at the pearly gates
frown.gif


But hey, that's just my opinion
grin.gif


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I wouldnt go that far, they just have very differing priorities... ie feeding their kinds instead of their horse, which I think if any of us were in the same situation, we would do too!
 
I know this is distressing - and I also support the Brooke for their fantastic work - but its not solely constricted to places such as Africa. I know there has been a lot of outrage about the state of the Boston carriage horses in the USA... Now they have no excuse - it is truly disgusting, it is completely unnecessary.

I wish more travel companies would mention things like choosing fitter horses in rides/carriage drives, not getting on the tourist donkies if over 9 stone or in pairs... They should start taking responsibility.
 
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I know all that!

I do not find it difficult to judge
confused.gif
...so I will continue to judge

I believe that people who fail to recognise the signs of pain/exhaustion/ despair etc in an animal are either missing their dollop of intelligence or, more likely, they are hedonistic, selfish f**** who will have a lot to answer for at the pearly gates
frown.gif


But hey, that's just my opinion
grin.gif


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Think I tend to agree with your sentiments
 
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I just dont see how you can be so agressive and judgemental when you have never been put in their position.......

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I just don't see how you can be so blind
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BLIND??? to what? I have said its not right but if you actually had NO money to feed your horse what exactly would you do????????
 
Quote its just a cultural difference.Unquote

Your words !

I'm not saying it's right but hey it's 'just'a cultural difference to commit acts of torture, usually against women and animals, we should celebrate our differences
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I'm glad I'm the sort of person to stand up and be counted , tough titty if you don't like it
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Tough titty!!! LMFAO........

you can quote me all you like but you didnt answer the question? what exactly would you do in that situation?

Im just seeing it from both sides.... NO its not right IMO to work horses in sweltering heat with no water...... BUT what would I do in that situation... I really dont know, if it was a case of feeding my falimy OR my horse i know which would get fed first!
 
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We must remember though that these animals are FITTER than many of our animals, being lean not thin.

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I don't quite know where you get this idea from. In many, many cases these horses are nutritionally deprived, physically absued (whether from ignorance or other), and have a working life span of probably about a two to three years.

Levels of fitness do not come in to it. However, I am happy to be corrected if you have source information that says otherwise.
 
New York City Welshrarebit???

Horses are very closely monitored. If termperatures go over a certain level then the carriage drivers are ordered to take them off the street until it is cooler.

Likewise, the standard of care and condition of the animals are monitored and certificates issued to allow an operater to 'operate'.

Great system.
 
just to turn this on it's head a bit, I brought Ty from a riding school where on a very hot summer's day, by the time I got to ride him out he'd been ridden for 5 hours that morning - he was underweight, depressed and kept in a pony stable......don't have to go to egypt to see badly treated horses.

Unfortunately people have to understand that cultural difference and lack of education plays a massive part in the misfortune of these horses.

People riding ill and skinny horses, when they go on holiday is, in my opinion, turning a blind eye....you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see when a horse is undernourished! It's the same as people who go 'swimming with dolphins' that are kept in small pools all their life......but that's a whole other can of worms!

ETS - if your main concern is how to feed your family on a daily basis, then you're really not going to give that much concern towards a horse.....all about priorities for these people and it's very easy for us to judge.
 
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if your main concern is how to feed your family on a daily basis, then you're really not going to give that much concern towards a horse.....all about priorities for these people and it's very easy for us to judge.

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I agree. However, as these animals form the basis for their living - then it reasonable to assume that only a little intelligence is needed to understand that if you keep it fed and healthy it will last you longer and perform better for you. Hence enabling you to provide for your family in a more successful manner.
 
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if your main concern is how to feed your family on a daily basis, then you're really not going to give that much concern towards a horse.....all about priorities for these people and it's very easy for us to judge.

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I agree. However, as these animals form the basis for their living - then it reasonable to assume that only a little intelligence is needed to understand that if you keep it fed and healthy it will last you longer and perform better for you. Hence enabling you to provide for your family in a more successful manner.

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Agreed - I'd like the opportunity to pose that to some of the people who own the horses/ponies out there....wonder what the response would be?
 
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Agreed - I'd like the opportunity to pose that to some of the people who own the horses/ponies out there....wonder what the response would be?


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A load of B*ll*cks I suspect!
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I agree too but im sure these people fall into two camps:

Those who spend money on the horse they have, thus making it more able to do the work that is required of it, and last longer

those who spend very little money on the horse they have so that when they have knackered it to the point that it cant do what is required of it, they get a new one.

I have no idea which option is more financially viable....
 
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New York City Welshrarebit???

Horses are very closely monitored. If termperatures go over a certain level then the carriage drivers are ordered to take them off the street until it is cooler.

Likewise, the standard of care and condition of the animals are monitored and certificates issued to allow an operater to 'operate'.

Great system.

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Just wondering what people would think about a very lean little horse pulling a massive carriage. The horse was much loved and in great condition for 20+!!
 
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