Elderly horse pain relief Vs PTS

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I spent the night blathering and gave my head a shake this morning.

Had a long talk with my daughter who used to share the mare with me, we are going to pick up some metacam today to tide her over and book her in to be PTS over the half term when I have a week off.

We have had planned pts done at October half term, too. Especially when we have an Indian Summer, it gives them as long as possible before the weather really deteriorates and also gives the owner time to get their head around the idea. It is never an easy decision but just has to be done in the horse's best interests.

 

[SEL]

I spent the night blathering and gave my head a shake this morning.

Had a long talk with my daughter who used to share the mare with me, we are going to pick up some metacam today to tide her over and book her in to be PTS over the half term when I have a week off.

Its horrible whenever and however you have to make the call. Having seen an elderly horse go down and become an emergency though I would rather plan ahead - although my head struggles to rule my heart at times like this.

They bring us a huge amount of joy and love, but they do take a little bit of our hearts with them too xxx

 

[Adoni123]

Honestly, I think it's time to PTS. Very sorry

That's extremely expensive for you and not manageable. 30 years is a grand age - if she's still able to have a tiny trot and canter she's probably a reasonably happy older lady which I think is the best time to PTS.

You definitely don't want to leave it until she can't trot, can't get up, has no personality and is a shell of herself.

The worst fear is finding them in crippling pain - better a day too early than too late.

 

[Polos Mum]

Really brave of you to put her welfare above yours. Don't underestimate how tough it will be on you, but 110% the right decision.

Better a month too soon than a day too late.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

You are right about this. She sounds like her time has come.

You don’t want to find her down in the field. This happened locally to a horse with similar indications to yours, including struggling for the farrier. It went down in the field, it was dark, the weather was horrendous with wind and rain, the vet was lighting the horse up with his headlights to see what he was doing. They couldn’t get the horse up despite numerous attempts, and it had to be PTS where it was, in the storm.

What a dreadfully sad end for such a noble creature. Sometimes its hard to let go. Well all the time actually.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

my view is exactly the opposite. No way would I PTS before trying bute. (and I know she won't eat it)
The horse is described as bright and well. Pain relief and she could have a good quality of life for a while yet.

I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago except the horse went down in the stable and couldn't get up. It was arthritis type problem (not colic or anything) rang vet. It was out of hours so going to take a while. Horse was lying flat out his head in OH.'s lap. We decided PTS as we couldn't risk this happening again. Hopefully horse would just stay lying there until he could be PTS. This horse wouldn't eat bute so I syringed 3 sachets into him in just to try and make his life easier until the vet could get here.

About 40 minutes later horse climbed to his feet pretty easily from a really dreadfully stuck position.


Vet examined the horse. Apart from this problem he was OK. Then we didn't know what to do. PTS a horse who was quite happily walking around and wanting to eat? we left the decision to the vet so our feelings didn't come into it. Vet decided we could not justify PTS. Horse went onto bute, vet injected bute initially and then started on double dose and worked down to one a day after a week or so. All syringed in. By the time we got to only having to syringe 1 in daily it was really nothing.

Horse had 2 more years of excellent quality life. Excellent was racing around the field, (he was an arab) getting down to roll and back up easily and there was no indication of a repeat performance. He was PTS this summer but it was nothing to do with these issues.

I have never syringed danilon but bute is possible to syringe.

Well done having the courage of your convictions, not many that would have been brave enough to have written your reply. I wasn't. But now I feel I can agree with you, I too would try the bute route, I know some horses can be kept very comfortable on one sachet or less a day, even big horses.

Sometimes the more you mix stuff into a drug the more suspcious they get. I know Marmite is meant to be very successful, so is apple juice and mint food flavouring (in the cake section of the supermarket).

I have made a garlic, peppermint and sea salt 'condiment' that I put into my horses feed just to make it more exciting, not to hide anything. The sea salt is £1 and the garlic granules 49p from Aldi, the peppermint a tub of Dodson & Horrell

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would not give my horse garlic, it can upset the digestive system and destroy the gut flora. Some horses simply won't eat it anyway. I think if OP knows from past experience that trying to give bute to her horse will just cause all concerned extra stress, it is not fair to judge her decision.

ETA, we have syringed bute into horses before now and I would expect OP to have done so too, under the circumstances.

 

[paddy555]

Well done having the courage of your convictions, not many that would have been brave enough to have written your reply. I wasn't. But now I feel I can agree with you, I too would try the bute route, I know some horses can be kept very comfortable on one sachet or less a day, even big horses.

thank you. If this horse had been described as anything other than "bright and well" I would have been looking at it very seriously. I have had a lot of old horses. No way do I let them suffer but equally I don't believe in PTS a horse before it's time when it's pain can be controlled and it can go on to have what is often a few more happy years with a good quality of life.

 

[paddy555]

I would not give my horse garlic, it can upset the digestive system and destroy the gut flora. Some horses simply won't eat it anyway. I think if OP knows from past experience that trying to give bute to her horse will just cause all concerned extra stress, it is not fair to judge her decision.

ETA, we have syringed bute into horses before now and I would expect OP to have done so too, under the circumstances.

If your comments were aimed at me then

OP's original post asked for ideas re pain killers and ways to get danilon into a horse. I did not judge her. I simply tried to provide an answer.
She had tried putting molasses on the back of the tongue for a few days so could clearly get into the horse's mouth.
I have syringed bute into several horses and none have found it stressful. She made no mention of syringing bute so I thought the suggestion may give her an idea.

As I see it with an older horse in this position it takes around 1 minute to syringe bute into the mouth each day. In return the horse they horse may well be able to continue it's life with a good quality of life. Other option is a bullet. No brainer in my view.

 

[Tiddlypom]

IME a horse who struggles to the extent that the OP describes needs more than a bute/Danilon a day to keep them comfortable.

I have no problem with horses being kept on as medicated field ornaments, I do the same myself.

If I let one get to the stage of struggling to get up, I would blame myself for not acting sooner.

ETA I have syringed Danilon in, it doesn’t dissolve very well but if you swirl it about and have a wide bore syringe, it can be done with little mess.

 

[BBP]

IME a horse who struggles to the extent that the OP describes needs more than a bute/Danilon a day to keep them comfortable.

I have no problem with horses being kept on as medicated field ornaments, I do the same myself.

If I let one get to the stage of struggling to get up, I would blame myself for not acting sooner.

That’s a fair comment, and I do blame myself for my horse, but things can very gradually deteriorate without you really knowing about it. And if you don’t see your horse get up every day you can brush it off as a one off when you do catch them.

I haven’t really known what to say on this thread because I have managed to turn my horse around from one who struggled to get up to one who is now getting up normally when I see him. I don’t know if that’s relevant to a 30 year old or not. I know other people would have had mine put to sleep months ago when he fell getting up. Others like Tiddlypom might not have let him get to that point (that’s not a dig, I mean other owners might have seen the dysfunction earlier and fixed it). I certainly didn’t do it on purpose. I genuinely don’t know how I let him down so badly. Regardless, he has gone from the verge of PTS because of his issues getting up, to hopping up like a normal horse. That has taken some pain relief for a period, twice monthly osteopathy, daily massage and red light treatment, keeping warm, controlled exercise, looking at hoof balance, keeping on a good surface where he has space to get up safely whilst he improved. There is still a lot more to do to make sure he is ok long term.

At 30 I don’t know if these things will help or not.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

If your comments were aimed at me then

OP's original post asked for ideas re pain killers and ways to get danilon into a horse. I did not judge her. I simply tried to provide an answer.
She had tried putting molasses on the back of the tongue for a few days so could clearly get into the horse's mouth.
I have syringed bute into several horses and none have found it stressful. She made no mention of syringing bute so I thought the suggestion may give her an idea.

As I see it with an older horse in this position it takes around 1 minute to syringe bute into the mouth each day. In return the horse they horse may well be able to continue it's life with a good quality of life. Other option is a bullet. No brainer in my view.

Do you give your horses garlic? If so, maybe but as you didn't say so, no, not really.


IMHO, if the horse is struggling to get up, aged 30 no amount of bute/danilon is going to make much difference and I would let it go with dignity.

 

[kidsandponies]

It is so hard having to make the decision but I think you are doing the right thing.
I have just been through similar with my 21yr old arthritic TB. He had been on one bute a day for a couple of years but had started to struggle to get up. I had the vet out and he supported my decision that we shouldn’t do another winter (I couldn’t bear the thought of him going down overnight, the cold setting in, him not being able to get back up and me finding him down, alone and scared). I wanted to be in control of him going, not it being an incredibly stressful emergency situation. Anyway, I wanted the children back at school before we did it so we upped the bute to two a day (and didn’t see a massive difference in the way he got up) and let him go peacefully, with the last of the sun on his back a couple of weeks later.
The wait between booking it in and it happening was hard and it was an incredibly sad day but I also felt a sense of relief that I knew he wouldn’t suffer now.
Thoughts are with you OP.

 

[Tiddlypom]

BBP, yours is younger and had aggravated an injury?

That’s different to an older horse who has arthritis and age related wear and tear, which is what I meant my comments re not being able to get up to relate to.

 

[paddy555]

Do you give your horses garlic? If so, maybe but as you didn't say so, no, not really.


IMHO, if the horse is struggling to get up, aged 30 no amount of bute/danilon is going to make much difference and I would let it go with dignity.

not sure where garlic comes into it. Up to the individual if they want to feed it.

I think we will just have to beg to differ re your final para.I can only speak from my own experiences.

If I had tried the horse on a course of bute/danilon (which would only take a day or so to give an indication of the potential for success) and it had not resolved the problem then I would PTS. I would however always give the horse a chance with the medication route first.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

not sure where garlic comes into it. Up to the individual if they want to feed it.

.

The garlic came into the post that I was answering!

(Whispers) it's not always all about you, you know!

 

[BBP]

BBP, yours is younger and had aggravated an injury?

That’s different to an older horse who has arthritis and age related wear and tear, which is what I meant my comments re not being able to get up to relate to.

He is younger, but we still don’t really know the ‘why’. I hadn’t picked up on things like his hypermobile fetlocks, or that his toe drag indicated lameness/musculoskeletal weakness rather than just being ‘a bit tight’ behind. I hadn’t really noticed the camping under or his poor posture and loss of top line because it was an insidious onset, there was always something not quite right. Some of these may be relevant to the OP in that it may have been a gradual onset, and then all of a sudden you look at your horse objectively and think ‘at what point should I have seen this coming?’. Mine is off to vets again this week to see if there is anything else we are missing, like arthritis in the spine.

 

[F&B]

I had this problem with my very fussy old boy. He would not eat bute or many other things - he did tolerate "Butagran" however it's vanilla flavoured bute and smells quite nice.

 

[paddy555]

The garlic came into the post that I was answering!

(Whispers) it's not always all about you, you know!

whispers back, when it involves your comments, many of which have been sarcastic, nasty and deliberately aimed at me in the past, and they follow one of my posts then how am I to know.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

whispers back, when it involves your comments, many of which have been sarcastic, nasty and deliberately aimed at me in the past, and they follow one of my posts then how am I to know.

I think the quote function failed again, actually, but as my post followed directly below the post about garlic and you hadn't mentioned garlic, I would have thought it was pretty obvious which post I was answering - the other comments were more general. I really don't think that you can say that there was anything sarcastic or nasty in that post and I have no idea why you thought that it was aimed at you. Perhaps your paranoia is peeping through? In fact I agree with you on horse-related matters more often than not.


ETA, I am sure this is very boring for other posters and that an apology is owed to OP for derailing the thread.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

The garlic came into the post that I was answering!

(Whispers) it's not always all about you, you know!

Now then ladies, lets not argue.

I'm the guilty garlic person

There's garlic and there's garlic. The mix I described is one that you shake on the feed to give a flavouring to disguise bute. I used an old pink powder container someone discarded and filled it with the mix and made a couple of holes in the top like a salt shaker. A shake over the feed is probably the equivalent of half a teaspoonful of 'mix', which contains a pinch of garlic (five or six granules at most), a few grains of sea salt and a pinch of mint. Hardly shovelling garlic by the scoopful down a horses neck! My horse loves the taste.

 

[paddi22]

I've done a few nutrition courses and they all have said garlic isn't a good thing to feed horses? I'l try and root out my notes, but from a quick google I think this was the reason
https://feedxl.com/26-garlic/

it's never been proven to have any benefit for them either