mat
Well-Known Member
C-- good answer lol!
Electric Spurs, Rapping, Smacking....Where does cruelty begin?
- Thread starter Agent XXX999
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jumpthemoon
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just a question...
Would you rather:
a) A horse is rapped (the pole raised by someone slightly as the horse takes off), the effect being that the horse jumps higher next time as it thinks it miss judged the height....
b) Someone riding a horse really strongly into the bottom of the fence, forcing it to hit the front/back rail, the effect being it hits its legs hard so it is scared next time it comes around to the fence, and jumps higher...
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly I would rather neither! I hope you are not saying that these are the only options we have to get our horses to jump correctly? They may be both practised but that does not mean that either of them should be!
Just a question...
Would you rather:
a) A horse is rapped (the pole raised by someone slightly as the horse takes off), the effect being that the horse jumps higher next time as it thinks it miss judged the height....
b) Someone riding a horse really strongly into the bottom of the fence, forcing it to hit the front/back rail, the effect being it hits its legs hard so it is scared next time it comes around to the fence, and jumps higher...
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly I would rather neither! I hope you are not saying that these are the only options we have to get our horses to jump correctly? They may be both practised but that does not mean that either of them should be!
mat
Well-Known Member
hmm.. read the bottom of the post...
sleepingdragon10
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just a question...
Would you rather:
a) A horse is rapped (the pole raised by someone slightly as the horse takes off), the effect being that the horse jumps higher next time as it thinks it miss judged the height....
b) Someone riding a horse really strongly into the bottom of the fence, forcing it to hit the front/back rail, the effect being it hits its legs hard so it is scared next time it comes around to the fence, and jumps higher...
Which one is more dangerous??
I am not going to say either one is right, or I use either methods to get a horse to jump more carefully, but one of them, which I think is slightly less cruel can quite rightly not be practised in the warm up... the other... can be, and frequently is ..
I think that from what I know.. yes gridwork etc can make the horse more athletic and flexible etc. and quicker to pick up its legs.. but surely there are some horses that just dont care if they hit a pole?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I take your point, but surely it's the careful horse that you want as a show jumper...the one that doesn't care so much is never going to make it to the top, and if you have to resort to rapping a horse to get it to pick it's feet up then maybe, just maybe, the horse is doing the wrong job?
Just a question...
Would you rather:
a) A horse is rapped (the pole raised by someone slightly as the horse takes off), the effect being that the horse jumps higher next time as it thinks it miss judged the height....
b) Someone riding a horse really strongly into the bottom of the fence, forcing it to hit the front/back rail, the effect being it hits its legs hard so it is scared next time it comes around to the fence, and jumps higher...
Which one is more dangerous??
I am not going to say either one is right, or I use either methods to get a horse to jump more carefully, but one of them, which I think is slightly less cruel can quite rightly not be practised in the warm up... the other... can be, and frequently is ..
I think that from what I know.. yes gridwork etc can make the horse more athletic and flexible etc. and quicker to pick up its legs.. but surely there are some horses that just dont care if they hit a pole?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I take your point, but surely it's the careful horse that you want as a show jumper...the one that doesn't care so much is never going to make it to the top, and if you have to resort to rapping a horse to get it to pick it's feet up then maybe, just maybe, the horse is doing the wrong job?
kayleigh_and_rocky
Well-Known Member
OOOOORRRRR we could make the riders jump the jumps and see how they like being rapped/jabbed with electric spurs - could provide some amusing entertainment
jumpthemoon
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
hmm.. read the bottom of the post...
[/ QUOTE ]
Err... oh yes
Sorry, I just think there are a lot of people out there who think the only way to get what you want out of a horse is to cause it pain. Not saying that you are one of these people **ducks**
I would go for option C every time
hmm.. read the bottom of the post...
[/ QUOTE ]
Err... oh yes
Sorry, I just think there are a lot of people out there who think the only way to get what you want out of a horse is to cause it pain. Not saying that you are one of these people **ducks**
I would go for option C every time
mat
Well-Known Member
Let me clarify...
"surely some horses just dont care if they hit a pole"
Meaning.. rapping would make no difference, as the horse wouldnt care if it had a pole whacking its legs... eg. what would be the point.. lol
"surely some horses just dont care if they hit a pole"
Meaning.. rapping would make no difference, as the horse wouldnt care if it had a pole whacking its legs... eg. what would be the point.. lol
sleepingdragon10
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
OOOOORRRRR we could make the riders jump the jumps and see how they like being rapped/jabbed with electric spurs - could provide some amusing entertainment
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, a new sport in the making perhaps?
OOOOORRRRR we could make the riders jump the jumps and see how they like being rapped/jabbed with electric spurs - could provide some amusing entertainment
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, a new sport in the making perhaps?
sammy69
Well-Known Member
people used to put hedgehog skins over jump poles so if horses hit them they would get spiked(works same as under boots i imagine)
kayleigh_and_rocky
Well-Known Member
Hehe and think of all those cute male bums popping over the jumps
mat
Well-Known Member
I had a show jumper once that I purchased from a very well known show jumper. He had started his career very well but then when he got to 1.30m level he started to get 4 faults.. 8 faults etc. etc.
They used all of the "tricks" to get him to be more carefull and consistent. In the end they sold him to me as they had completely blown his brains..
I managed to get him calm, and competed him to 1.25 level, but had to accept that double clears where few and far between.
Anyway last year he had a tendon op. and when he started work again he didnt feel right in his back.. I got him checked and it turns out he had kissing spine, which the vet said had been developing for the last 5/6 yrs!
The poor bugger had been tortured for all that time with the rider punishing him, when he was in real discomfort when he jumped some fences!
He is retired in my field now, but it has made me very wary of "forcing" a horse to jump in a way that it finds difficult or unnatural
They used all of the "tricks" to get him to be more carefull and consistent. In the end they sold him to me as they had completely blown his brains..
I managed to get him calm, and competed him to 1.25 level, but had to accept that double clears where few and far between.
Anyway last year he had a tendon op. and when he started work again he didnt feel right in his back.. I got him checked and it turns out he had kissing spine, which the vet said had been developing for the last 5/6 yrs!
The poor bugger had been tortured for all that time with the rider punishing him, when he was in real discomfort when he jumped some fences!
He is retired in my field now, but it has made me very wary of "forcing" a horse to jump in a way that it finds difficult or unnatural
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hehe and think of all those cute male bums popping over the jumps
[/ QUOTE ]
Cute?? Name us one cute sj'er, they're either overweight or rough as a badgers behind!
Waits for the backlash from Rambo
Hehe and think of all those cute male bums popping over the jumps
[/ QUOTE ]
Cute?? Name us one cute sj'er, they're either overweight or rough as a badgers behind!
kayleigh_and_rocky
Well-Known Member
I don't know - tim gredley isnt that bad? lol
Bbmat - thats a really sad story
Bbmat - thats a really sad story
mat
Well-Known Member
He is happy now.. and he taught me lots!
I liked Porraick Kelly.. does he still jump?
I liked Porraick Kelly.. does he still jump?
jumpthemoon
Well-Known Member
Bbmat - it is so sad when things like this happen. At least you had the brains / compassion to investigate.
PS. Am now even more sorry for jumping to conclusions earlier
PS. Am now even more sorry for jumping to conclusions earlier
mat
Well-Known Member
No prob!
SSM
Well-Known Member
I will admit my first thought was electric spurs - where can I get a pair
Please don't all shoot me down at once I did see the error of my ways!
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Bbmat - thats a really sad story
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto
Bbmat - thats a really sad story
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Ditto
Boodle
Well-Known Member
Bbmat - Urgh.. thats so sad
Im of the opinion, as most are, that rapping, electric spurs etc are cruel and should not be used in any circumstances.
The lengths some people will go to for some short lived glory is beyond me...
Im of the opinion, as most are, that rapping, electric spurs etc are cruel and should not be used in any circumstances.
The lengths some people will go to for some short lived glory is beyond me...
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
So another question. Would you wedge a pole in so it can't fall if they hit it and gives them a shock so next time they jump bigger?
kayleigh_and_rocky
Well-Known Member
No i wouldnt - surely thats excessively dangerous and will only cause the horse to fall?
mickey
Well-Known Member
Some of these techniques sound crazy -
I mean, take 'electric spurs'. Don't you think it would be rather alarming if someone got after you with electric spurs, firstly when they wanted to apply them, and secondly when they were applying them because they weren't skilled enough to hold them away from your sides.
And then, if this alarm and confusion was not enough, as you approach the 'high jump' just as you take off it is raised so you can't possibly clear it. Followed by the obvious collision and soreness.
I think these techniques are extreme and unfair.
I would prefer that option 1 was to try to understand the horse in question and use my brain in coming to some sensible methods of correction. And yes, sometimes it is reasonable to admit that the horse just is not capable (for whatever reason) of what is being asked.
It's meant to be a partnership, not a situation where one party plays tricks (in the case of rapping) or using extreme methods on the other.
I mean, take 'electric spurs'. Don't you think it would be rather alarming if someone got after you with electric spurs, firstly when they wanted to apply them, and secondly when they were applying them because they weren't skilled enough to hold them away from your sides.
And then, if this alarm and confusion was not enough, as you approach the 'high jump' just as you take off it is raised so you can't possibly clear it. Followed by the obvious collision and soreness.
I think these techniques are extreme and unfair.
I would prefer that option 1 was to try to understand the horse in question and use my brain in coming to some sensible methods of correction. And yes, sometimes it is reasonable to admit that the horse just is not capable (for whatever reason) of what is being asked.
It's meant to be a partnership, not a situation where one party plays tricks (in the case of rapping) or using extreme methods on the other.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
No i wouldnt - surely thats excessively dangerous and will only cause the horse to fall?
[/ QUOTE ]
But you do cross country - whats the difference? At least if you smacked a showjump really hard the wings would fall over, whereas XC the only thing going to fall is your horse.
No i wouldnt - surely thats excessively dangerous and will only cause the horse to fall?
[/ QUOTE ]
But you do cross country - whats the difference? At least if you smacked a showjump really hard the wings would fall over, whereas XC the only thing going to fall is your horse.
kayleigh_and_rocky
Well-Known Member
Well i guess it depends on the size of the showjump as well. Showjumps tend to go a lot higher than XC fences (id love to see someone tackle a course of 1.60 xc fences!!)
Plus XC its not purposeful - it is not on in any way shape or form to PURPOSEFULLY hurt or hinder a horse to try and 'improve' its performance.
Plus XC its not purposeful - it is not on in any way shape or form to PURPOSEFULLY hurt or hinder a horse to try and 'improve' its performance.
mickey
Well-Known Member
Yes, there lies the difference - In the case of XC you are not deliberately tricking the horse and giving it no chance like you are if you physically ram a pole into it. You are giving it a fair chance to assess and jump the obstacle. If you ram a pole into it there is only one outcome - the horse gets rammed by a pole. At least it has some chance of jumping it in XC.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that you move the pole whilst the horse is jumping you just make it more difficult for the pole to fall, or in otherwords use heavy poles
How does a horse know the first time you take it XC schooling that the jump isn't going to fall down? Should we never take horses XC schooling because of this, or should they learn to pick their feet up a little higher?
How does a horse know the first time you take it XC schooling that the jump isn't going to fall down? Should we never take horses XC schooling because of this, or should they learn to pick their feet up a little higher?
mickey
Well-Known Member
Sorry - I misinterpreted your original post.
With XC the horse has to jump the obstacle as seen. And, yes, the fence is unlikely to collapse/fall down if the horse hits it. Fair enough teach them to pick their legs up by using heavier poles, giving them every chance of jumping by presenting and preparing them correctly. But purposefully moving poles when the horse has taken off or deliberately causing undue pain and discomfort is a different matter.
With XC the horse has to jump the obstacle as seen. And, yes, the fence is unlikely to collapse/fall down if the horse hits it. Fair enough teach them to pick their legs up by using heavier poles, giving them every chance of jumping by presenting and preparing them correctly. But purposefully moving poles when the horse has taken off or deliberately causing undue pain and discomfort is a different matter.
icemaiden113
Well-Known Member
Thats okay i take your point! (not offended!) again mine is just an observation!
vanessahook
Well-Known Member
I am all for discipline when it is called for but not beating because the rider can't get what they want from a horse and is angry with themselves! I can't see what cruel methods get out of horses apart from creating an atmosphere of fear. This achieves nothing. If the horse is unsuitable for the job then don't ask it to do it!
Take my mare for instance, she should be a dressage machine but she simply isn't! I have tried for so long and haven't resorted to cruelty but there have been moments when i know she has had a smack because i have lost my temper. I have taken a step back recently and i know her heart isn't in the job and thats fine (i hate my job too!!) so she will soon be leaving the competition yard and going out to grass while i get over my disappointment and move on.
If you are resorting to cruely to get "the best" out of your horse you need to have a serious look inside yourself and ask yourself whether you would carry on trying if your boss came in every day and zapped you with an electric shock!
Take my mare for instance, she should be a dressage machine but she simply isn't! I have tried for so long and haven't resorted to cruelty but there have been moments when i know she has had a smack because i have lost my temper. I have taken a step back recently and i know her heart isn't in the job and thats fine (i hate my job too!!) so she will soon be leaving the competition yard and going out to grass while i get over my disappointment and move on.
If you are resorting to cruely to get "the best" out of your horse you need to have a serious look inside yourself and ask yourself whether you would carry on trying if your boss came in every day and zapped you with an electric shock!
Gentle_Warrior
Well-Known Member
I know a friend who will smack the horse she has on the neck when it head shakes, personally this irritates the hell out of me. I am awaiting the day when I grab that whip and use it on her !!!!!!! it will happen !!!! I generally hate whips, more so on the neck, there is no muscle. I carry a short whip with a fillet string attached at the end on my horse. Works wonders, more effective than beating, and he can be a lazy so and so !!!!! even works when he has a paddy and naps !!
it irritates and does in no way hurt.
it irritates and does in no way hurt.