Elimination: To go or not to go?

rockinghorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 June 2008
Messages
302
Location
North Lincs
Visit site
I have had the pleasure of fence judging a local XC trials today & the local organiser (PC Club) brought in, 3 refusals and the rider must leave the course. However most refused to leave the course. When informed to leave after three or more refusals many just continued. One member of a pairs team screamed at me saying that she was not going to waste her money and continued around the course holding up others coming behind. Her number was reported but I am interested to hear your views? Thank you.
 
How peculiar! Three eliminations and out sounds like a fairly sensible rule and certainly not something to throw your toys out of the pram about! It may just be that people are a bit stressed with the cost of competing at the moment.
 
Dont, only have to look at the girl in america killed after continueing. After 3 refusals its time to call it a day and do more schooling. And would hope the organising committee spoke/disciplined competitiors in question
 
i also jump judge for local pc/rc and sometimes once a rider has been elimated they are no longer insured by the local pc/rcs insurance. This is why they are asked to leave the course.
 
I've carried on before I'm afraid. My horse is fairly green xc wise and he was clear the whole way round except at a trakenner where he stopped about 4 strides out three times, eyes popping out his head. Final time round and I came in trot and he jumped it, so I carried on and did the rest of the course (clear). A couple of fence judges did call out to me and I do appreciate the rules and it's your job BUT i had travelled an hour to get there, spent £25 to enter (not including travelling costs) and I just needed the practice. I wasn't in anyones way (i would have pulled up or waited if I was) and it was my own risk.
I apologised to the fence judges afterwards and explained though they weren't to impressed (understandably). but I'd still do the same again if the stops were just something silly. Sorry!
 
You may have travelled etc. but if your horse has stopped three times, it is a risk, and the rules are there for a reason. Practise is what xc schooling is for. Again, you look at the girl killed after being eliminated... it shows incredible arrogance to say you'll just do what you want no matter what. TBH if I were running an event I would make it clear before the start that any riders eliminated who continued when asked to stop would not be allowed back on the premises for 6months/year or until they apologised as well.
 
Presuming they knew the rules before starting, they have a choice whether to pay or not. If a horse is refusing 3 times, then it is clearly not up to the job yet, whether it's a medical OR green issue.

If these riders want practice on a XC course, then there are plenty available to hire, when they can spend all day NOT holding people up and simply ignoring the rules which are there for everyone's benefit. I don't compete myself, but this strikes me as being very arrogant and egocentric. If I was in charge, those riders would not be competing in anything I organised again.
 
I wouldnt carry on no matter what but I would carry on if the sitaution was the same - I hadn't even got near the fence. When i did, he jumped it. I know my horse and I know I was safe to carry on. It was a mini riding club hunter trail and i think sometimes there has to be a bit of flexibility and common sense - we're not all world beaters and it's not an affiliated event. I wasn't going to win but we did go home having achieved something and learnt something, rather than uin a sulk and not being able to practice again for a few weeks.
i think for local competitions it just needs to be judged on individual cases a little bit, else you lose the fun aspect of it.
 
I think it depends on the horse/ rider combination and the height of the course. If i was told to leave the course i would as rules are rules but if i knew they had the 3 stops and out rule i wouldn't even enter in the first place. I've got a very spooky/ naughty pony that likes to stop and leaving the course would just be giving in to her. However normally we will only have 1 stop then pop it 2nd time, if we did have 3 stops normally i just move on to the next jump. At HT i've fenced judged in the small 2ft classes you get so many young riders having sometimes 3 stops at every single fence, they're not at all dangerous just not kicking enough and the pony is taking the mick.
 
I agree with Mac1999. At unaffiliated level, its good to encourage people to have a go.
While you shouldn't use competitions to school your horse, the atmosphere at a competition is completely different and there is no substitute for getting that experience.
I did an event yesterday where my horse took exception to one particular fence and got very stressed. I made the judgement to go round it and carry on so that we achieved something, rather than finishing on that note which wouldn't have been good for either of us. I now know what I need to work on next time I go schooling and we finished the course with a smile on our faces. The rules did state we were allowed to continue, otherwise I would have left the course.

While I appreciate organisers have to be aware of health & safety, I am an adult and I am responsible for my own well being. As far as I'm concerned the organiser's responsibilities are about making sure the obstacles are as safe as possible, there aren't too many people on the course, adequate first aid cover etc. Riding the course is my responsibility, no-one else's.
 
And what about the rider who was killed after elimination? don't you think she thought she was fine and the horse was jus tbeing 'green'? Does your pony recognise the finish line/know how long the course is?
 
It was her choice and her judgement. I've no idea what she was thinking and sadly we can't ask her but I still support people's rights to make their own decisions.
After all people have been killed who haven't been eliminated - should we stop them going cross country at all just in case they have an accident? Then what - do we stop people getting on horses in case they fall off?
I choose to take a risk everytime I get on my horse and as an adult I accept this. Taking away individual's rights to make their own decisions on health and safety grounds is, in my opinion a very dangerous road to go down.
 
I agree with Mac1999 here also. Over tiny courses, such as 2'6" and providing the stops are novicey I think it can be beneficial to carry on until the horse gets the idea. Its all well saying thats what you school for but you cannot replicate people and dogs walking courses and fence judges sitting by the side and sometimes its better to trot round so the horse gets the idea rather than going home after fence 3. However, if the horse is slamming the brakes on thats another issue.

I haven't heard about the rider killed after being eliminated though & I do sympathise. However, several people are killed, unfortunately anyway, whether they've had a few stops or not. Surely this rule is no more dangerous than being aloud to continue after one fall ?
 
There is good reason for this being a BE rule and there really must be some sort of discipline for those riders who ignored the rules. It's up to the organisers to enforce it, not the fence judges- all you can do is politely explain the rules and hope they follow them!!
 
Actually I think your attitude is disrespectful to those of us who weigh up the risks and take responsibility for ourselves instead of quoting health & safety at every turn.

Actually I am very respectful to show organisers by accepting responsibility for myself and my horse and by following their rules. If the rules say I should leave the course then I do, if they allow me to continue then I will. If by doing so I have an accident I will take full responsibility for my actions.
 
QR Funnily enough we had a longer than usual talk on this in briefing yesterday.

In order to encourage young horses and inexperienced riders we were asked to remind riders of the rule for that day which was two stops and move on. Those that insisted on having three stops were to be eliminated and told to leave the course at a walk. Those who argued were to be reported to the organiser who would have a stiff word with them. For the purposes of this Eventer Trial those who were eliminated SJ (in the lower classes) were allowed to go XC with a special message to all fence judges to keep an eye open and report any problems, whether at a fence or not, when a decision would be made to stop them before the next fence. I understand that competitors were told that if it was felt they were unsafe they would be pulled up and asked to leave the course at a walk.

As a result we mainly managed to keep the course moving well, we had a lot of happy people who would have been eliminated at the first fence who all tried the second fence and found their horses jumped it happily and finished the course, in some cases with no further stops. Best of all we had NO incidents worthy of note and no calls for the paramedic at all.



If there is anyone local who needs to school under competition conditions with fence judges, radios, coursewalkers etc then Ely Eventing have a Hunter Trial on 19 October with a 2'3" schooling class and for anyone who wants the opportunity to jump a little bigger but with someone to give a lead if necessary there is a 2'9 Pairs class.

hth
 
[ QUOTE ]
QR Funnily enough we had a longer than usual talk on this in briefing yesterday.

In order to encourage young horses and inexperienced riders we were asked to remind riders of the rule for that day which was two stops and move on. Those that insisted on having three stops were to be eliminated and told to leave the course at a walk. Those who argued were to be reported to the organiser who would have a stiff word with them. For the purposes of this Eventer Trial those who were eliminated SJ (in the lower classes) were allowed to go XC with a special message to all fence judges to keep an eye open and report any problems, whether at a fence or not, when a decision would be made to stop them before the next fence. I understand that competitors were told that if it was felt they were unsafe they would be pulled up and asked to leave the course at a walk.

hth

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is the most sensible thing I've heard on here & is to be applauded for reasonableness, sensibleness and fairness
laugh.gif
 
Yes jemima i see the theory there, after two stops mvoe on BUT surely the normal rule is, 3 stops and your effectively eliminated? What if the horses with 2 stops would have actually jumped on the 3rd attempt, thus not being eliminated as they would have been had they carried on (ie missed the fence) after two stops?

In affiliated eventing yes, 3 stops and you're out, everyone knows that and, as a general rule you're unlikely to go pay the extortionate entry fees for a BE event if you didn't think your horse would get round. However, I ahve been to many unaffiliated RC events over smaller courses and that are treated as a 'fun day' basically where, if a person was technically eliminated they could then carry on effectively H/C if they so wished. I don't have a problem with this as I think is good practvie for horse and rider. Yes i get the safety issue (although I have not heard about this person who died) but i think you have to give people credit also for using their own common sense.

I competed my pony years ago after the foot and mouth outbreak, he had not been to an event for over a year and I think the whole thing blew his mind. I was 'eliminated' by the 3rd fence and think i had parted company a couple of times by this point. However, i knew my pony and I asked if they would mind if I carried on round the course (not jumping) and they allowed me to. Half way round he had settled himself down and we actually jumped the last few fences.

Taking part in any horse event is risky but it's also supposed to be about having fun isn't it? A horse who may have schooled happily round a course before may act totally differently when a competition is held over the same course and many refusals are down to napping not the fences and. once these horses get away from the rest they jump a perfectly nice round. A horse has got to learn somewhere haven't they and I don't think getting 3 refusals at fence one and being told to leave will help anyone?

I consider myself v lucky, my horse doesn't refuse so elimination doesn't cross my mind but i empathise with people who do struggle with their horses at events.
 
QR:

Quite simply people who enter competitions are agreeing to abide by Ts&Cs and the rules of the body organising, whether that is BE, RC, PC or private. To think you are above the rules and Ts&Cs IS arrogant, nothing more, nothing less.
 
I have to say, some competitions don't really care if you go on or not. At the ones where i have carried on after being eliminated, no-one had ever tried to stop me, shouted at me, or had a 'strict word' with me afterwards.

When I first started going to unaff ODEs my horse would not go through water, I mean would not. I did my homework, went xc schooling, had a nanny horse go through before etc, and where we hack we always generally have to go through some form of water obstacle, a forded road or a woodland stream. But on those events where he would not go through water, I would have been mightily annoyed if I hadn't been allowed to carry on - as horses can learn the three stops and out rule very quickly (didn't take my old horse long to learn that under BSJA rules - obviously a few years ago, only get two stops now
wink.gif
) Sure enough, all the times I was eliminated at the water and carried on, my horse went round the rest clear.

Now, rider permitting, horse goes round clear pretty much always. Learnt to go through water after a few more times with encouragement from a long whip.....

On the other hand, on a very dodgy course (big, rubbish fences) where I was eliminated I left the course. This was my decision, whether it had been in their rules or not. I didn't carry on as I am sensible enough, and old enough to know when its my day or not.

I think you should credit more people with common sense and the fact that they will leave the course if they truly feel that it isn't going right (if they are otherwise allowed to carry on in the rules of the comp), and not that the horse needs to go round, as has been mentioned above, some horses just know how to take the pee a little too much.

RIP to the girl, but unfortunately these things do happen, and apparently (on another thread) Ruth Edge was taken off in a helicopter the other day. I think we can all agree that she is maybe better than the average HHOer when it comes to going XC, and if it can happen to her, then surely it can happen to anyone.
 
Top