Ellie Lawrenson's Grandmother's manslaughter trial begins

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Puppy

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6976444.stm

I hope she is found guilty, and I've always felt that way, but the greater detail in the news report makes me even more certain
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She should definitely serve... I also think the owner of the dog should be given a significant prison sentence, the police need to show that owning pitbulls will not be tolerated!
 
All very odd. Why wasn't something done about it after it attacked the neighbour??

Ie. Why didn't the police take it away to be destroyed?
 
I feel some empathy here. She had a drink and smoked a bit of cannabis. Most of the country had a drink that night and many people would also smoke a bit of cannabis. Not the right thing to do when looking after a child, but nothing like the same deal as taking cochaine or heroin!! Then she said that she let the dog in because he was crying and shaking outside the door because of the fireworks. She said he seemed scared and she took pity on him. It was a very bad decision, with terrible consequences, but it was a mistake made due to a weak moment of kindness. Many children die due to neglect where there is malicious intent and/or total selfishness. This was not the case here.

I suspect this woman will pay for this with her own distress and guilt for the rest of her life. Her son however, should have had the dog put down when he knew it attacked people and the Police should have questions to answer here too. If it was my son and he hadn't done the right thing, I would take the decision out of his hands, but he looked (on TV footage) a 'handy' rough lad. We don't know what the relationship between them was like or if she was intimidated by him.
 
A grandmother smoking cannabis is ok????
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I'm apalled. I wouldn't let my child(if I had one) within mile of my mother if I thought she smoked wacky backy!

I didn't drink a drop that night, New Years hunting the following day, OH however was running around the village shouting happy new year and blowing a hunting horn - he however was not in charge of a child.
 
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I feel some empathy here. She had a drink and smoked a bit of cannabis. Most of the country had a drink that night and many people would also smoke a bit of cannabis. Not the right thing to do when looking after a child, but nothing like the same deal as taking cochaine or heroin!!

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But being under the influence isn't an excuse for a serious criminal offence
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Maybe it's not in the same league as more serious drugs, but that is hardly relevant here, she was definitely negligent in her care of the child.

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Then she said that she let the dog in because he was crying and shaking outside the door because of the fireworks. She said he seemed scared and she took pity on him.

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But surely common sense says that a scared animal is even more unpredicatable and dangerous
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I don't think it justifies breaking the family rule of not allowing the dog in the house with the child.
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It was a very bad decision, with terrible consequences, but it was a mistake made due to a weak moment of kindness.

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I don't see the kindness I'm afraid. I think about the poor girl who was ripped to death - I bet she was a damn sight more scared that the dog was about the fireworks...
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Many children die due to neglect where there is malicious intent and/or total selfishness. This was not the case here.

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Which would probably be murder
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Other offences are not really relevant..


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I suspect this woman will pay for this with her own distress and guilt for the rest of her life.

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Well yes, and I could say the same about a lad I knew who drunk drove and killed someone...
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I'm quite sure EVERYONE would think he deserved his prison sentence. I know he suffers from terrible guilt, I know the burden he will always carry; the way he crys a lot, the mental issues he suffers (he goes out with an old friend of mine) But I still don't doubt that he deserved to have served time, and that most people would consider it far too lenient a sentence.

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Her son however, should have had the dog put down when he knew it attacked people and the Police should have questions to answer here too. If it was my son and he hadn't done the right thing, I would take the decision out of his hands, but he looked (on TV footage) a 'handy' rough lad. We don't know what the relationship between them was like or if she was intimidated by him.

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Well, yes, I agree. I would certainly like to hear how come the dog was not put down after attacking people in the past.
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And I would quite like to see him charged with constructive manslaughter if it were possible
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Most of the country had a drink that night and many people would also smoke a bit of cannabis

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Most people didn't have a dangerous dog in the back garden though......
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I didn't say I condoned it, just that I had some empathy (meaning I can understand how the grandmother did what she did - nb that is not the same as condoning!) If you re-read my post, I certainly did not say that a grandmother smoking cannabis whilst in charge of a child was "ok"!

I also didn't say that her actions weren't negligent. I was simply offering a little balance to the 'lock her up and throw away the key' approach - and yes I know that no-one said that literally!

I will now take my 'do gooder' approach and go and hide!
 
I can't help but think that the 'drink and drugs' aspect of this case is a bit exaggerated. Really, a few glasses of wine and a bit of blow on NYE us nothing out of the ordinary. What is out of the ordinary is keeping a young child up until the small hours of the morning, then allowing a dog that has already attacked two people, into the same room - knowing that it shouldn't be in there! I fail to see how this woman can plead not guilty. She must have a very clear conscience...
 
Some people are extremely stupid. I wonder if cannabis rots your brain. Fair enough though the prescription drugs, drink and other stuff were in her own home. The stupidity started earlier with knowing her son had a banned and proven dangerous dog and letting her keep it at her house. That poor child could only rely on the adults around her to have reasonable adult common sense, which was sadly lacking. What an absolutely awful, awful way to die. The neighbour whose dog was attacked reported it and all that was done was a warning letter was sent out!
 
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I can't help but think that the 'drink and drugs' aspect of this case is a bit exaggerated. Really, a few glasses of wine and a bit of blow on NYE us nothing out of the ordinary.

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Well yes Sooty. I mean, obviously it's helpful for the prosecution, but it doesn't really make her any more of less responsible of the negligence that you've described below:

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What is out of the ordinary is keeping a young child up until the small hours of the morning, then allowing a dog that has already attacked two people, into the same room - knowing that it shouldn't be in there! I fail to see how this woman can plead not guilty. She must have a very clear conscience...

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Well no
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not "normal". I just don't think, despite what the prosecution or defence may try and say, that really it makes her any more OR less guilty for what she did, because she was under the influence. It was letting the dog in, not being under the influence, that caused the child's death (and causation is essential in proving a crime). Does that make sense?! I'm a bit too tired to explain myself better tonight
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Its normal for people who are responsible for small children to smoke pot?
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Wow you're opening my eyes. Personally I think its apalling.

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I don't think it is any worse than people looking after children whilst drinking. I just cannot understand why this woman hadn't put this child to bed hours previously. Whether she was off her head or not, she acted totally irresponsibly. However, after reading today about an anaesthetist who killed a six week old baby by making a very basic error being found not guilty of manslaughter, she will no doubt get away with it.
 
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Its normal for people who are responsible for small children to smoke pot?
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Wow you're opening my eyes. Personally I think its apalling.

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Sadly I know of people who do this. Perhaps the kids drive them to it?? But that's another debate entirely! Strange case, I will go away and read the reports from today. Don't know why they had the dog in the first place, what's wrong with a perfectly legal dog like a jack russel? I remember when it happened the police raided loads of dog fighting dens. Makes you wonder why they weren't doing it before....
 
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Have you got a link for case that please Sooty..?

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Well, I only have a link to the article about it - and am posting it on the strict condition that you do not make a song and dance about it being in the Mail! I only read it to argue with it...
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Link
 
The parents left this child with her at about midnight I think. If she was incapable they are also partially tob lame.Ask yourself why this family bought a pit bull in the first place AND kept it despite it attacking 2 people.If you were looking for a family dog would youlook for a pit bull? If you had a dog that has already attacked 2 pople would you keep it? I feel sorry for these dogs (and biterly sorry for the little girl who was totally blameless and did not deserve this). They are breed without thought and sold to people who do not understand them and frequently have criminal intentions when they buy them.
 
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Have you got a link for case that please Sooty..?

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Well, I only have a link to the article about it - and am posting it on the strict condition that you do not make a song and dance about it being in the Mail! I only read it to argue with it...
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Link

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*giggles and sits on hands!*
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I think that the parents were also extremely negligent. she must have known what her mother was like when they came back for the other child. They are as guilty if not more so that the grandmother.
 
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