Embryo Transfer Advice Needed!!

[Chick1989]

I am hoping to have an embryo transfer from my intermediate event mare this year. I have picked a stallion but find all the 'mumbo jumbo' hard to understand and I don't want to be conned into anything.

I understand that ET is an expensive process but I thought someone might be able to explain everything in 'human language' and give me an idea of real costings and experiences people have had using Tremlows or/and Beaufort ET centres.

Keys things are:

-costings

-experience using jaguar mail semen... who should I deal with and NOT deal with?

-How will it affect my mare, if at all?

- Experiences in general.

Thanks!! <font color="blue"> </font>

 

[Aredis]

We had a foal last year by Jaguar Mail, it was by AI frozen semen which is reputably of excellent quality, although we did not do embryo transfer on this breeding.

I attended last years ET Open Day at Twemlow's that was very interesting, it all seemed so simple.

I did not see any dangers to the donor mare at all.

The Jaguar Mail semen in the UK is supplied by French Stallions and stored at Stallion AI / Twemlow's.

Twemlow's have a large recipient herd available. They are holding an Embryo Transfer Open Day on 26th February.

I liked the idea that everything is on the same site, no shipping of semen etc to cause any delay. This is where I will go for ET in future.

 

[Alec Swan]

Chick1989,

we are also planning for an ET, this year, and just as you are, we are going through the "enquiry bit".

It seems to me, and from what I can gather, that the more that semen is handled, then the less effective it is likely to be. If you were to use fresh, for example, then that would increase your chances of success. If you use chilled, then some of the semen will die off. If you use frozen, then proportionately more will be of no use.

As it only takes one live and potent sperm to enter an egg, and there must be millions in each dose, then the question of the fertility rate is a bit beyond me! So I'm told, dead semen tend to clog up the entrance to the uterus. If they're dead, then how they move forward is a bit of a mystery. This may well be one for Andypandy!

Should you decide that you only want a colt, or a filly foal, then by killing off the male or female sperm you will again lessen your chances of success. I'm just using this as an example, and to reinforce the fact that the greater results will come from semen which hasn't been mucked about with.

Both Beaufort and Twemlows are highly skilled, but they aren't alone. I would ask the advice of an experienced ET technician as to the reduced success rate of frozen semen. As the donor mare is only going to be AI'd, and then the embryo removed, I don't suppose that frozen semen should be any different from fresh. Don't know is the honest answer.

Costings? it isn't actually that bad, PROVIDING that it works.

If you are determined to use Jaguar Mail, then the last time that I looked on the website for his agent it was considerably more expensive than Twemlows. There are certainly others who act as agents.

Keep in touch by PM, if you like, and we'll compare notes!! I wish you the luck which I will most certainly need!

Alec.

 

[Aredis]

Quote "If you are determined to use Jaguar Mail, then the last time that I looked on the website for his agent it was considerably more expensive than Twemlows. There are certainly others who act as agents".

Sorry but I do not think this is correct.

The Jaguar Mail semen in the UK is stored at Stallion AI a sister company to Twemlow's but neither sell the semen. When we used the stallion they told us to buy direct from French Stallions. I have never seen Twemlows quote a price for semen at all. Sure you will find out though.

Another thought is that Jaguar Mail was sold to us with a live foal guarantee which is well worth having.

 

[Chick1989]

Ok that's all very interesting.

Does anyone know how long chilled semen lasts?

What are everyone's thoughts on doing it with an special ET vet at home in your own stable yard (the actual transfer is at a veterinary clinic)....too risky ...?

d4e5f6 :

Thanks.. I am new to the forum so I will try and work out how it all works! Have you got recipient mares in place or are you using someone elses??

XxX

 

[7888]

We have done embryo transfer for the last 5 years - so here is my take on the job. Be very certain that you want to this, its expensive and it can have ongoing consequences for your mare.

Firstly get your local tried and trusted vet to check her for CEM/EVA etc, any worries then go through two or three tests cycles. If she is perfect, then try to persuade your selected stallion owner to sell you fresh semen and work with you on your girlie's cycle. A French trotter mare is one of the best recipients - they are long and big ol' girlies but I have had thoroughbred mares who have done as well. Get your girl cycling under lights and your local vet to scan her progress, maybe daily to see how she does, the size of her ova etc. If you can get a no foal, no fee arrangement - even better. When you check her in to the selected clinic, make sure you show then all her certificates to confirm she is clean. When she is ready, they will inseminate her and leave her for about 6 - 7 days plus regular scanning to see what's going on. At her flush, they will try and find the fertilised egg - hopefully they get this out and place it into the recipient mare. She will then be scanned about a week later to see if she has held the embryo, if so, she will be regularly scanned until about 42 weeks.

Your girlie will go through the emotion of feeling pregnant , she might go all gooey eyed like my international show jumping mare who was convinced that she really did not need to work any more !

If the first attempt fails, then you have got to go through the whole process again and maybe again - its invasive, time consuming and expensive.Budget about £6,000 a go by the time you have paid stallion fees, endless vets sticking their hand up you mare's backside etc but and its a big but, if you get one or more foals out of your lovely girl - its all been worth it.

The downside of embryo transfer is not only the cost but after a while the mare can only carry to about 7 days, so if you want to breed with her naturally at the end of her career, then a good old shag from a live covering is the only thing to get them to keep the foal - don't ask me why - I don't know but we find that with those mares who are not competing but have done quite a bit of transfer, this seems to be the answer for them at the end of the process.

There is a good guy in belgium but I can never spell his name - try a bit at home but I can look up his name for you, if you require.

Just make sure you do all the tests - CEM etc at home - it can be transferred to your mare at the clinic, you need to make the clinic aware in no uncertain terms that she is clean and if she comes home positive to CEM etc - its a disaster because you cannot breed from her again. I have had this happen to me and because I did not test at home - I could not prove she got it at the clinic in England. You have got a 50% chance of success but if you love your mare, and she is good enough, then give it a go but its always vital that someone gives you the heads up on this - that's so American etc.

 

[kumala]

I have done ET with my mare the last two years and used both centres you mentioned, i can't recommend Beaufort highly enough, they were brilliant and really do their best to keep costs down. You are looking at spending at least 3k, not including semen costs and my mare was treated like a princess whilst at Beaufort, the recip they provided is also fantastic, they really tried to find a great match for my mare.

 

[Chick1989]

Thanks for all the advice.

I was thinking around 4K ish as a budget... we have a broodmare that I want to use which will cut costs a lot but I know its not guaranteed that she will be the best match cycle wise for my mare and that we might end up having one of their recipient mares anyway!

Beaufort are closer to me than Tremlows so I think they will be the chosen clinic!

j1234 : that's really interesting about the trotter mare.... I wouldn't have even thought to consider one! My broodmare is a 16.2 TB who has had 1 foal before so i'm hoping they will deem her as suitable.

I have the possibility of another broodmare to use but I am unsure ... she would be on loan to me for 24 months or so. She is a 15.3 IDxTB.. had 3 foals before. Im not sure if with my mare , 16h Belgium warmblood and jaguar mail, a 17.1 .... whether the foal will be too big for the 15.3 mare?

X

 

[Alec Swan]

Aredis,

you may well be right regarding the semen from JM, as it's possible that I was enquiring about Kannan. You will be aware, that the French Stallions website represents both horses.

There is however, no doubt, that when I 'phoned the agent in France, regarding which ever stallion it was that I was enquiring about, I queried why the semen cost from Twemlows was substantially cheaper than his quoted price, and I was told, and I quote, "If that's what Twemlows have quoted you, then that price will stand". A straight forward and unequivocal response.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

Chick1989 &amp; j1234,

further to my stumbling thoughts! I had a meeting on Monday with the vets who will perform the ET work.

It seems to me, that of more importance than the donor mare, it is after all a simple case of AI, then greater thought should be given to the recipient mares.

They really must have their reproductive systems checked to ensure that they are ENTIRELY suitable. I may well be wrong, but it would seem that 30-40% of recip mares will fail the reproductive checks.

I have been offered many mares as recipients. As the work is to be carried out in Newmarket, the vets concerned have suggested that they may well be able to find suitable mares. This is an important point. If you go to an ET centre, and you allow them to use a mare(s) of their choice, then firstly the impetus will be on them to provide a complete service, and secondly, of course, they will most probably have mares which are just what you want!!

I would strongly suggest that you heed the advice of j1234, regarding the possible introduction of disease. Most certainly a valid concern.

I would be very interested to hear how you progress. PM me if you prefer.

Alec.