Embryo Transfer costs?

James, it may well be that we can find common ground!

I wouldn't be in the least offended, by the complaints of those who will criticise the SFP. It's obscene, nothing more, or less, but the need for it has been brought about by inept government, and an even more shameful EU! It's another subject, for another time.

That there are MANY stud farms who do their level best for their owners, their horses, and ultimately their own families, has never been in question, and I have NEVER said otherwise. I have found a stud, just South of Newmarket, where I'm sending one mare to foal and be re-covered, and another for a straight forward AI. Having researched these particular people, extensively, I have heard nothing but good. It would be a just criticism to advise that I should have done research previously!!

I would suggest, as an example, that Touchwood, who has responded to this thread, has demonstrated an entirely fair and strait forward approach.

There is no question that ET is expensive, but is it, really? Take for example the thoughts of watertray53 and Chick1989. I'm staggered that no one has considered their thoughts before. I spend my life looking for fresh angles, and I can't imagine why I hadn't beaten them to it!

Let us for a moment consider that your one ambition was to breed a top class event horse. Let us now imagine that you one day received a 'phone call from the owners of, let's say Hedley Britannia. Continuing with this fantasy, what would your reaction be if they then said, "Would you like to make your own stallion choice, and have a foal from our mare?" I know what my reaction would be, and I'd pray for a filly!

Are the suggestions of the above two posters any different? That it would be fraught with problems, must be obvious. There would be a most certain need for clear and binding agreements, and that it all needs serious thought must be obvious. If we only rely upon breeding, or a retired mare, then surely the option of a successful, reasonably young and competing mare should be very attractive. The success rates from young mares are improved. You will have a mare who will hopefully have a strong dam line to support her, and with a careful and researched matching to the correct stallion, I would have thought that the costs weren't actually that bad, when compared with the cheaper option of a standard covering to a mare with no real record, and again, there is still the increased chance of failure.

The mare which has never competed will have had four or five foals before the eldest are able to demonstrate whether the choices are correct. The mare herself, though biddable and easily handled, may be an idiot under saddle. The Advanced mare, having succeeded, will have demonstrated that she has the ability to transfer those desirable qualities into her foal.

I accept that the mare which hasn't competed shouldn't be discarded, but I would also suggest that the failure rate of the offspring from these mares will be far higher than those from a mare which has mileage.

It would be helpful if those with a record of breeding successful competition horses would join in and offer their views. I, for one would be interested to hear the replies.

Alec.
 
I think its worth remembering that everyone has very different requirements and lifestyles and no one size fits all. I would LOVE a really nice horse, but if I am honest I am a fat middle aged woman who can only afford one horse at a time. I don't want to look out for and buy a top class brood mare as I would have to choose between mare and foal. If I was offered the egg of a mare that really performs AND has a very strong damline I would jump at the chance of using a stallion of my choice. Most top bloodlined broodmares are put to a stallion that will produce a potential top performer - if she is a sane and sensible mare then a stallion that consistently passes on a great temprement, easy for amateurs to ride isn't the no 1 consideration for that mare. But it IS the no 1 consideration for me!!!!! So it is harder for me for example to go to the elite auctions and find (and afford) that ideal foal or to find one privately bred, bearing in mind lots of studs will keep their best foals and not sell them on. There are people on this board and I drool when I look at their foals, but who would really want to sell their top prospect to fat middle aged lady (albeit a good home)? Yes breeding any foal is a risk but if I can find a top class sensible damline and use the stallion of my choice, then I have more of a chance of breeding a foal that meets my requirements (as well as the fun of breeding the foal) than perhaps looking for years for a foal that ticks all the boxes.
 
Hollycat said:
I think its worth remembering that everyone has very different requirements and lifestyles and no one size fits all. I would LOVE a really nice horse, but if I am honest I am a fat middle aged woman who can only afford one horse at a time. I don't want to look out for and buy a top class brood mare as I would have to choose between mare and foal. If I was offered the egg of a mare that really performs AND has a very strong damline I would jump at the chance of using a stallion of my choice. Most top bloodlined broodmares are put to a stallion that will produce a potential top performer - if she is a sane and sensible mare then a stallion that consistently passes on a great temprement, easy for amateurs to ride isn't the no 1 consideration for that mare. But it IS the no 1 consideration for me!!!!! So it is harder for me for example to go to the elite auctions and find (and afford) that ideal foal or to find one privately bred, bearing in mind lots of studs will keep their best foals and not sell them on. There are people on this board and I drool when I look at their foals, but who would really want to sell their top prospect to fat middle aged lady (albeit a good home)? Yes breeding any foal is a risk but if I can find a top class sensible damline and use the stallion of my choice, then I have more of a chance of breeding a foal that meets my requirements (as well as the fun of breeding the foal) than perhaps looking for years for a foal that ticks all the boxes.
Click to expand...

I think the point of view Hollycat is great..... This opinion is from a real lady rider with normal circumstances and normal view points and, correct if I am wrong, you are not planning an ET yourself so have no real bias opinions!

To find a foal or young horse that suits you completely is a tough task. At least if you had the chance of buying an embryo from a fantastic horse and choosing your own sire.... be it a 'world beater' or a more 'normal' stallion, you are getting what you want.... and as described above you also get the enjoyment of 'borrowing' or leasing a broodmare and giving it back once your special baby is weaned!

xxx
 
I have seen custom ET foals offered in the U.S. before, it is not a new idea, but would certainly require a lot of thinking through as far as contracts go for both parties. Additionally, if the donor is currently in competition, that may pose problems--studies have shown that exercise which elevates core temperature can reduce embryo recovery rates. This is something which the buyer should consider, in addition to the logistics of getting the mare which is in work in for synchronisation, breeding, and flushing around a competition schedule. Perhaps more than once if the first/second attempt are unsuccessful. Embryo freezing and shipping could be a good option, allowing you to avoid the synchronisation altogether, and I believe some specialists in the UK are beginning to offer this service.
 
Im not an expert on ET but another angle to the argument is if you do own a top well bred broodie (not comp horse) it would be cheaper to use ET that buy a mare of similar a standard. I know people say you can pick up a well bred mare for next to nothing, but I would have to disagree. A top broodie with a top dam line is not cheap, nor should it be.
On the subject of selling eggs, this is not a new concept. I know that the mare Lakotah ( dam of Utah Van Erpekom) is available for this service!
 
As watertray pointed out, all a matter of weighing costs and probabilities against possibilities; but, Alec:

"The mare which has never competed will have had four or five foals before the eldest are able to demonstrate whether the choices are correct."

as will the mare who HAS competed! and:

"The Advanced mare, having succeeded, will have demonstrated that she has the ability to transfer those desirable qualities into her foal."

Well, no! Not until she has had those four or five foals out and doing things, like the mare who hasn't competed. She WILL have demonstrated that she has abilities herself, which she MAY pass on; but not that she WILL pass them on, what sort of stallion would enable her to do so or whether there are other elements hidden in her genetic makeup which she may also pass on even though you'd rather she didn't!

It might be worthwhile for those who intend to compete their mares and feel that they will go to high level to collect and freeze a few eggs early on (am I right in thinking you can do that now? Or do they have to be fertilised?) and maybe produce a couple of foals themselves to show what she can do as a brood mare.
 
Quote:

It might be worthwhile for those who intend to compete their mares and feel that they will go to high level to collect and freeze a few eggs early on ....

or, as I sugested in an earlier post, let someone who wanted to breed a 'potential' star use them in transfer so that in 5 years down the line there are progeny competing.
 
Well, yes! Rather like the low cost coverings offered by the owners of young stallions at the start of their careers to get some stock on the ground.

Of course eggs are going to be a more valuable commodity than semen as rarer and more trouble to collect etc. and some mares (Headley Britannia again!) would always be expensive on performance record alone; still a gamble, not a certainty, but a very attractive one, especially as I think breeders are gamblers by nature (or else they'd just go out and buy a horse). However, I can see the sort of market developing as with promising young stallions where mares who seem to be fast tracked for success (eg owned by someone with the ability to compete them) are groomed to be lucrative future egg donors by breeding a few trial foals in this way.
 
James,

Quote "Of course eggs are going to be a more valuable commodity than semen as rarer and more trouble to collect etc." unquote.

Eggs are 90p a dozen from Waitrose. In the case of equines, separating the egg from the follicle is under research, but the chances of success are remote, at best. We have to realise that it's the fertilised EMBRYO which is under discussion. There's a world of difference between an egg, and an embryo.

From the point of view of the buyer, it's a brilliant idea. There is, however a huge obstacle to overcome, it's recently occurred to me.

This is rather following on from the thoughts of AJBliss. The owner of the donor mare will, presumably, have their mare in training. The donor mare, and probably two recipient mares are going to have to be synchronised. Ideally they will all be at the same centre/establishment.

Assuming that the donor mare holds to the AI, then after six days, the embryo(s) will be flushed out, and trapped. Those embryo(s) will then be transferred to the recipient mare(s). Most certainly the mares will all need to be at the same ET centre. Have we really thought this through? I'm starting to!

If the donor mare is to be shipped backwards and forwards to the relevant centre, and she's with a pro, then I suspect that they may become a little irritated with the too-ing and fro-ing.

Further to the above mentioned post by AJBliss. I too wondered whether fit mares would have a problem with producing viable follicles. I 'phoned two ET centres, and they both said that it wouldn't make a scrap of difference. The advice does seem to be rather contradictory, doesn't it? For myself, I'd rather go along with the advice of the doubters, even though we are going down the very same route!!

My current level of thinking is that if the donor mare's owner was prepared to endure all the buggering about, then yes, the idea would interest me greatly. The major question would be that in the event of a first failure, would the donor mare owner, or the trainer, be prepared to continue with further attempts?

Alec.
 
Hi Alec,

I am not speaking from personal ET experience, as I am a non-vet, however in the literature review I have done, I came across a recent study (Mortensen et al, 2009) which divided mares into a non-exercised and an exercised (30 min daily @ average >30C temp, >50% humidity) group. Rectal temps on the exercised mares averaged nearly 2C higher post-exercise than pre-exercise. All were AI'd, and flushed; exercised mares had 34% embryo recovery rate, non-exercised 63%. Exercised mares' embryos were also graded at a lower quality on average, which would likely make a difference in freezability were they hoping to go that route. Of course, these experimental conditions were daily work in a hot environment (Texas!) which may not be as much of an problem here in the U.K., and may be why you were told it's a non-issue. I'm sure people who are doing a lot of ET's have a better idea of how different exercise regimens effect their results in this specific locality--there are a number of polo mares having ET foals, I think, and they are certainly fit and work hard.

I have been enjoying the conversation on this thread, and wish all of you embarking on ET programs lots of luck and first-cycle fertility!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top