Embryo Transfers, a way forward?

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Alec Swan

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If we accept that the ideal brood mare will;

A/ Have the technical ability and scope, to face the task before her, in what ever discipline.

B/ She will demonstrate, that with a skilled rider, she will prove to be rideable, and willing, and wont fold up simply because she doesn't want to do it.

C/ She has the correct conformation.

and D/ She will hopefully have a degree of breeding behind her, by way of support.

then where are these paragons to be found? Competing I would suggest.

We have funded 2 ETs this year, by way of an experiment, but it's set me thinking, a process which has gone on, for nearly a year. The arrangement which we have with the owner of the donor mare, a friend, is that she will have one foal, and we the other. I accept that we have been incredibly fortunate. The two foals are due next Spring.

I'm not prepared to sink five figure sums into 2-3 yo fillies, and find, that when backed, or going on, that they're so flawed that no one will want their foals. I accept that there are those mares which are far from perfect, who've produced the goods. All breeding is a gamble, that we know, it just seems to me that what I'm planning, using proven mares, would lessen the risk, or am I wrong?

To that end, I'm giving serious thought to approaching the owners of intermediate, or advanced mares, between the ages of possibly 6 and 12 years, and offer to fund one or perhaps two embryos, either as a straight purchase, or a share at weaning. It wont be easy, that I realise. The owners of the "Dream Ticket" mares, will probably be doing it for themselves, anyway. That, or they will be producing the horse to sell on, and it would be of no interest to them.

I can assure those of you who've got this far, that I'm not doing this on a whim! It seems to me, to be the best way of sourcing the use of those mares which I can't afford to buy. I don't suppose, for one moment, that I'm the first person to consider this approach, and accepting that it wont always be as entirely straight forward, as our recent, and currently successful efforts, I'd be interested to hear the views of others.

I'm all to aware of the pitfalls, and they aren't really the gist of this post. Rather, I would hope that those who feel able, could advise me, as to their thoughts about using the successful mare.

Particularly, I'd like to hear from those experienced breeders of sport horses, those who've had success, and those who've probably given more thought to the question, than I have!!

Alec.
 
Typed long reply then comp crashed. Bah

I presume you are talking about eventing. Different disciplines - very different approaches. You have bloodlines at D in your list and mention "a degree of breeding for support". Most Continental dressage breeders would be on the floor fitting by now - they will look at bloodlines VERY carefully and before the mares comp record. Many would choose a mare with outstanding bloodlines over a flashy, nicer competition mare with poorer bloodlines. Reasoning - if plain mare A's mother, sisters, grandmothers and aunties have all produced international competitors and graded stallions with regularity (even though some may look like tanks) then chances are her genetics will allow her to do the same. If flashy mares relations have never produced anything she may just be a freak that got lucky and drew a nice genetic hand of cards to produce herself as an end product - but won't necessarrily pass them on. Also many of the best mare lines never compete. They do MPT then stright to broodie life. They are also like gold-dust - never for sale and if they were never affordable.

However - I think you want to produce event horses. We produce some of the best event horses in the world - beating the continental type system! So the above example re dressage horses may not apply and was just to give you things to think about. Breeders and riders think very differently too it should be remembered. All things being equal I would go for the mare with outstanding bloodlines that produce winners time after time AND who has a proven competition record. That is the ideal for me.

There was a poster on here a whole back - maybe a year - that had an advanced mare and was interested in ET. Do a search. The mare sounded really fantastic from what I remember - just up your street. I think rich people with a string of advanced horses you would have probs convinceing them to do an ET with you. BUT - there are people out there with maybe one advanced horse. They probably spent a lifetime looking for her and she is invaluable to them. At the back of their mind they know she will get old and how could they ever replace her? Its a big worry. You could help each other very well in such a situation. You get the genetics you want from a proven mare that would otherwise not be out of the competition arena/ affordable and the other party gets your expertise and help to produce a foal from their beloved mare. Everyone is happy :)
 
OK - so I'm not an experienced breeder of sport horses because I haven't had the finances to become one up to now. I've just started out - but I have heaps of breeding and genetics experience in general, a relevant degree from 20 yrs ago, and 20 years worth of subsequent interest and research.

I now half own a super yearling filly. I picked her for her dam breeding line, and she was an elite premium foal and higher 1st premium yearling - placed 7th in the BEF finals this year at Osberton.

Plan is to ET her next year and perhaps take 2 foals from her a year. I'm debating stallion choice as we speak.

ET is an established technique abroad and actually in this country for other species (cattle etc). I feel as if I'm pushing the boundaries by thinking about having 2 foals in utero from my filly next year, but the more I talk to people the more I realise that it's just not that unusual a prospect.

If we take that as a given, then why not do what you are suggesting? I would only say that it does mean taking the mare out of training for a time at the beginning of the season (assuming we're talking eventers) so that she can go to stud (I know it's AI & ET, but she does need to be there for a bit........), and that surely the owners would realise the potential once you've suggested it and want to keep it for themsleves?

It doesn't seem to be prohibitively expensive - £5K estimate to get a foal on the ground. Top value foals should sell for that or thereabouts, if not more? If you run them on then who knows?

What I'm thinking of doing is breeding from an unproven mare - but one that has been judged to have exceptional potential. What you are suggesting is breeding from proven mares - a much better prospect I would have thought.

I'm just being impatient in wanting to reduce the generation gap I suppose, but I think it might be worth the gamble. My filly has been rated as exceptional by experts - but we still don't know whether or not she'll ever jump so much as cross pole. If she fulfills everyone's expectations (and they're not just mine remember - she's been through 2 years of BEF futurity and will do it for 2 more years so I can keep an informed opinion of her as she grows), then she'll go round Badminton one day. By then there could be 10 or more of her offspring under saddle if we have 2 ET foals a year. Just think if Headley Britannia had done that from a 2 year old?

If I'm shot down in flames on here for my thinking then I'll listen, because there is still time for me to change my mind, and I'm vehemently against irresponsible breeding. I just think that this sort of thinking regarding mares may be the way forwards.
 
Hollycat,

you're right, in that breeding the successful event horse is the ambition. I should have explained myself a little better!

I have little interest in dressage horses, as such. I know of a mare, and asked the trainer, a man of International standing, about her actual shape. He replied that she was bred to jump, and it was a toss up which discipline she would follow. With a VERY careful mating, there's no reason why such a mare shouldn't be a candidate, to produce an event horse.

I believe that event horses are a little more complex, in that they are an amalgam of breeding. I see quite a few Advanced event stallions, who would be the sort of horse that one would want to breed, but not necessarily breed FROM. I also "think" that from the dressage breeding point of view, as in racing, and possibly show jumping, that pedigree is probably everything. I believe that the successful event horse, is another matter. If it was felt that a successful mare, of what ever discipline needed a TB stallion, then that would be the way to go. I'm not too sure that the most successful event stallion , put to the most successful mare, would necessarily be the answer.

I think that I took part in the discussion of a year ago, but now seem unable to find the relevant thread! Perhaps the owner of the mare will pick up on this.

Bedlam, it seems that I'm not the only one who doesn't want to buy in foals, and then wait forever, with the risk of a higher than necessary rejection rate! Your plan has moved on from the chuck-it-in-and-chance-it method, in that you've sourced a filly which has already a great deal to recommend her. Assuming that you are successful, in that you have foals by ET, then presumably the next stage for your filly, would be to be ridden, which would then add support to the argument of those, who believed her to be ideal. Am I right? What I'm suggesting, would shorten the system even further, in that qualified competing mares would be the most attractive.

Had I laid out my thoughts, in total, then I'd still be sitting here, from last night, and would have clogged up the whole system! Thank you for your input.

Alec.
 
I hope a lot of the really experienced breeder on the board will put their imput in. For me this is a fantastic idea. :) I know both Alex and Bedlam are primarily breeding to keep for themselves, but I personally would jump at the chance of an ET foal from bloodlines I could never otherwise have (Bedlams filly sounds gorgeous). So with the right dream stallion/mare combo there could be a market for foals to sell too, probably in utero or before the breeding as buyer would want to select sire, which would offset the costs.

I know little of the technology though I presume eggs/embryos are not commonly frozen in the way of sperm. Perhaps in time it will be as easy. Can you imagine in 50 years we may just phone the freezing station and order our Totialis/Poetin foal to be delivered in 1 years time. That is scarey :(
 
Alec - yes you're right. Plan is to back her and bring her out for 4 yr old classes with a professional and give her the best shot at a competitive career. I have to say that if she proves to be useless, then I may end her breeding career.......but let's wait and see. Everything looks good on paper and in theory so far.

I'm hoping that she will be a good advert for the futurity series as well as for my future youngstock.
 
We had our first Embryo Transfer foal this year out of Farouche. The cost of ET, over and above the normal cost of pregnancy and foaling, was about £4000 including hire of Recipient mare. For 2011 we have two more coming and these two will be more expensive as the breeding was more difficult. We have also done ET with Farouche's mother, Dornroeschen. Both these mares descend from the dam line of Florestan so quite significant.

From my perspective it is an expensive on cost for other than an exceptional mare that can either no longer carry a foal because of age or is engaged in competition.

I would be looking for a mare with a significant personal record, a convincing dam line that has produced performance or top breeding animals, and a good type. I am breeding for dressage but I would want the same correctness for any discipline.

There is another element around the recipient mare and the early months of the ET foal's life. Although I think genetics is the strongest longer term effect, we were very disappointed with the energy and movement of our ET foal with her Irish Draught cross dam. Because the mare was not inclined to move with any energy, neither was the foal. We hope that by next year the genetics will take over.
 
I think it's an excellent idea.

As the owner/rider of a mare who's competing intermediate but with precious little money to spend on ET it is certainly the sort of scheme I would be interested in. For mine (who isn't an international prospect herself but who does have plenty of International breeding in her lines) I would even half fund it.
 
My interests are a little further down the line but I would also give some thought to the quality of the recipient mare and how the foal is raised/produced. While I am a firm believer in using top genetics and mixing them carefully, I've also ridden for a lot of breeders and seen first hand how the steps that come after are at least as important, if only to allow the horse to live up to potential. Having spent the not inconsiderable funds to put a genetically exceptional horse on the ground, I would also want to see the subsequent steps addressed with the same foresight.
 
There is quite a lot of Et work done here, infact one of the mares on my list is an ET foal herself and I know Paul will take embryos form his really good competition mares. The donor mares are all warmbloods too, just ones not thought good enough to be carrying their own foal. I think coats are cheaper here too from what I can read, as usual it is the recipient mare hire that can be costly.

I have seriously been considering ET for my advanced mare. She ticks pretty much everything on your list - advanced eventer, 2nd highest graded mare with the SHB in her year of grading (only behind Badminton horse Little Tiger), eldest offspring (not by an eventing sire) proving really trainable and talented under saddle, super pedigree (sire is Holstein and top producer and sire of sires, dam line Thoroughbred with other avdanced eventers produced close up from that family)

The sad thing with my mare is that we can get her in foal, she just reabsorbs between 14 and 28 days, so ET is a real option for her. I am also considering 1 more crack at normal pregnancy as she was such a good mother to her first foal. But we have to really way up the costs.

I am sure there are people like me who would find your scheme very interesting Alec, but I also know of some people who havent been as convinved by their Et foals. The fact it is being done so much here means they clearly think it works
 
I've never been convinced by embryo transfer and Woodlander's comment is very interesting. The reason why an embryo transfer foal may act and look differently from expected is probably going to be due to epigenetic changes that occur during foetal development and also in the way the foal is raised by the recipient dam.

This is a good article about epigenetics. Not a lot of detail is know yet, but what is known is astonishing.

https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/b360905554fdb7d985256ec5006a7755?OpenDocument
 
stolensilver said:
I've never been convinced by embryo transfer and Woodlander's comment is very interesting. The reason why an embryo transfer foal may act and look differently from expected is probably going to be due to epigenetic changes that occur during foetal development and also in the way the foal is raised by the recipient dam.

This is a good article about epigenetics. Not a lot of detail is know yet, but what is known is astonishing.

https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/b360905554fdb7d985256ec5006a7755?OpenDocument
Click to expand...

That makes for very interesting reading SS, didn't quite understand all of it as I am a bit if a thicket (family are too so must be genetic) but got the main ideas and made me think back to school days to understand some of the terminology, really really fascinating.
A really interesting post thanks Alec.
 
S_S,

I will admit that I rather struggled through your offered article. Trying to understand it was the problem!! I didn't see any reference to an embryo's make up being affected, by the recipient dam. Did I miss the point?

It's been my understanding, that the recipient mare will have no genetic influence upon her unborn foal. Am I wrong, in this? She will, of course, influence the foal as she rears it, and if she's having a negative influence, then presumably, one would consider an early weaning. It wouldn't be ideal, I realise, but better that than allowing her to continue doing damage.

Woodlander, I read your interesting response, specifically your last paragraph. I agree, entirely, that just any old mare wont do as a recipient, and I suppose that all that we can do, is get as close as is possible to the ideal.

I suppose that the cost of ET is what puts many off, and it may be seen as the way forward, when the resultant foals start a career. Does anyone know of any ET born youngsters which are living up to their owners expectations?

Even though Embryo Transfer isn't a new idea, there still seems, to me anyway, that there's still a great deal of conjecture attached to the subject, which is a pity. None the less, I shall keep plugging away at it, and until I succeed, or fail. I'll let you know the outcome, whatever it is!!

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts.

Alec.

Ets, S_S, completely off topic, but I noticed from your article, that Lamarck was buried in a "rented" gave. How strange!!
 
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I have been lurking in the shadows following the development of this fascinating thread and waiting for my thinking to take some sort of coherent shape before adding my 2-bob's worth.

This still hasn't happened :o, but I am just thinking that I would like AndyPandy to now come in and let us know what his interpretation of that article is and generally what he thinks about the possible influence of the recipient mare on the unborn foal...
 
Enjoyed the article on epigenetics! There is so much we don't know about the physiology of life and of pregnancy. The mare is providing the environment for the embro to grow and there are huge environmental influences - including hormonal influences - during this time, so it would be no real surprise for the recipient mare to have a more significant influence than originaly thought while the foal is growing and developing - and of course the negitive effect of using cold blooded mares for competition foals has been known about for a long time.

Also remember clones - genes will turn on and off so clones will not look identical to each other. Off the top of my head the inactivation can be environmental - ie it happens in the womb due to environmental conditions there. Not 100% sure on this so someone please correct me.

But isn't this what makes breeding exciting? The fact that a person with one mare can hit the genetic jackpot every so often and produce something extrordinary? That its not just a black and white formula to follow?
 
I find the article tricky to read as well so I looked a bit more into it and found some relatively interesting science but nothing related to stimuli affecting embryos. I suspect that the way the upbringing affects the foal is more relevant but I'm not sure there'll be much to put down to epigenetics here- environmental stimuli are going to be different in every scenario but are, to a certain extent, controllable- eg nutrition.
More of what will influence the foal is the temperament of the 'mother' as foals will and do take direction from her. So if the recipient is a moody old witch, baby would be more likely to be too even if donor mare is a dope on a rope. But thats psychology, not genetics.....

A horse is a horse is a horse- what is a 'cold blooded mare'?
 
It is something I too am considering. Not because I will be producing an olympic eventer but because I want to produce another foal from our lovely CB mare, who we nearly lost after a difficult foaling. One of the stallions I would like to use is dead.

For rare breeds it seems the best method of conservation. Totally uneconomic of course so must be done for love and by people with deep pockets.
 
Sorry to the people who found the article hard to understand. I've got a scientific background and thought it was OK. When you are surrounded by something you don't realise how much knowledge you have that isn't general knowledge.

Basically epigenetics is the science of molecules that sit next to the DNA and tell the genes whether to switch on or off, whether they will be expressed loudly or quietly. The environment inside the womb can definitely affect these epigenetic chemicals and completely alter which genes are active and which are passive in the foetus. There is also evidence that the mother's behaviour in the first few weeks of life can affect how strongly genes are expressed and this can influence things as extraordinary as how big certain parts of the brain grow and how well the young animal deals with stress throughout their lives.

Here's another article. Not sure if its easier to understand, I hope it is.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1951968-1,00.html
 
Sorry TheMule - by a cold blooded mare I meant a draft type mare that was originally used for embryo transfers. This was unsuccessul as the foals took after mum and were not keen on moving about and being actice.

Interestingly on the subject of mules - hinnys and mules are very different in behaviour and looks. Many hinnys go through their lives being thought of as ugly ponies - no-one actually realises they are a donkey x pony cross!!!!! Not sure why a hinny takes more after its pony father in looks - hinny's typically have a more rounded pony bum, full horse tail, not so long ears as compared to a mule. Logically since both are a 50/50 hybrid you would think they would look kind of the same, but the ones I have seen really haven't - the mule obvioulsy being a mule, the hinys being - well - short odd ponies.
 
Im afraid im not a breeder or all that experienced. :P But i will be following this thread with great intreast.

Just curious but what are the sucess rates for embryo transfer in horses?

We were learning about it lately in collage and our lecturers,both cattle men, made it sound like it wasnt particularly successful in horses..mind you that was compared to cattle where the rates are very successful.

I would definately agree that is is the way forward .The female lines haven't had enough emphasis on them in the past as regards the mares been successful athletes as well as mothers.Using the best proven mares with the most suitable stallions for them seems like an ideal breeding program.
Its used a lot in high end dairy farming because the benifits are seen.The best genetics breeds the best genetics.

In embryo transfer the dams input will mostly be genetics in the foal.
I would wonder,when it comes to attitude of the foal, how much of an influence the recepient mare will have?The choice of recepient is something id have a lot of intreast in

The system that bedlams following ie Get the most promising fillys and embro transfer from breeding age to get good prospect foals on the ground and then in the hopes that the mare will become sucessful on the field, id the one ive heard the most talk about though i could see it being a very expensive.But you still have stock from good bloodlines with great potential so not a complete loss even if the mare isnt as sucessful as expected.

The idea of going direct to the owners of succesful mares is intreasting.But i do wonder about the economics of it..and the legality.Who really owns the eggs and subsequent foals.you the investor or the owner of the mare who produced them.What happens if only one foal ends up on the ground not two.A water tight contract and clear agreement would be on my mind in this case.

It does sound like a great scheme idea for compeditors with very successful high end mares who want to continue to compete while producing their next generation of high end stock.

I would think that even if producing to sell on,that the posibility of a high end foal from good lines would be of intreast particularly as they dont have to deal with the rearing and breeding difficults in their mare once the eggs are collected.

i'l be looking forward to hearing how it goes for you.
 
I know this thread is a bit old, but I don't feel the subject was exhausted and I would have hoped/expected more people to come in and comment... :o

Especially that the last poster posed a number of interesting questions:

Aru said:
Just curious but what are the sucess rates for embryo transfer in horses?

We were learning about it lately in collage and our lecturers,both cattle men, made it sound like it wasnt particularly successful in horses..mind you that was compared to cattle where the rates are very successful.
Click to expand...

Any vets/experienced ET breeders/academics out there with any stats on the matter?

Aru said:
I would definately agree that is is the way forward .The female lines haven't had enough emphasis on them in the past as regards the mares been successful athletes as well as mothers.Using the best proven mares with the most suitable stallions for them seems like an ideal breeding program.
Its used a lot in high end dairy farming because the benifits are seen.The best genetics breeds the best genetics.

In embryo transfer the dams input will mostly be genetics in the foal.
I would wonder,when it comes to attitude of the foal, how much of an influence the recepient mare will have?The choice of recepient is something id have a lot of intreast in.
Click to expand...

This matter was discussed quite a bit previously and accepting that the recipient mare has more of a part to play (not just behavioural, but genetic too) than previously thought, I think one would need to use a recipient mare that was breeding-worthy in her own right to maximise chances of success.


Aru said:
The system that bedlams following ie Get the most promising fillys and embro transfer from breeding age to get good prospect foals on the ground and then in the hopes that the mare will become sucessful on the field, id the one ive heard the most talk about though i could see it being a very expensive.But you still have stock from good bloodlines with great potential so not a complete loss even if the mare isnt as sucessful as expected.
Click to expand...

I agree - I think to make it worth it from a commercial point of view, considering the costs involved especially when you are not the owner of the mare and therefore have to consider also making it worth it for the mare owner, the only way to make such a scheme financially viable is to use donor mares that are already succesful at very high level, which then would limit the scope of the scheme?


Aru said:
The idea of going direct to the owners of succesful mares is intreasting.But i do wonder about the economics of it.. MY MAIN QUESTION and the legality.

Who really owns the eggs and subsequent foals.you the investor or the owner of the mare who produced them. That ought to be easy enough to cover in a contractual agreement

What happens if only one foal ends up on the ground not two .A water tight contract and clear agreement would be on my mind in this case.
If only the donor mare owner's foal is viable, then the breeder would have lost everything - would it be useful to put a clause in to include one fee with eggs being supplied with a live foal guarantee?
And if only the breeder's foal was viable, who would pay the costs to ensure a foal on the ground for the donor mare owner?

It does sound like a great scheme idea for compeditors with very successful high end mares who want to continue to compete while producing their next generation of high end stock.
Agree 100%

I would think that even if producing to sell on,that the posibility of a high end foal from good lines would be of intreast particularly as they dont have to deal with the rearing and breeding difficults in their mare once the eggs are collected.

i'l be looking forward to hearing how it goes for you.
Click to expand...

My thoughts really are that IF some care is taken to ensure both the donor & recipient mares are perfect and IF all goes well and 2 live foals are the end result, then this could be a really great thing to do. But if things go wrong, doesn't the whole thing risk being a huge economic disaster?

Alec, over to you :D

How are things progressing and please let me know how you feel about some of the above points?

G x
 
I can't really offer any experience (yet), but I am in the middle of working out the costs of actually doing it this year, and I'll keep you all informed as the year progresses. At the moment it looks like if nothing goes wrong (!?!) and we produce 2 good quality foals next year we will at least break even if we don't make a profit. However, we are novice breeders and have chosen to leave our filly at the stud where we bought her from so that she runs with a herd of her own age group - something that we wouldn't be able to provide at home - and will probably opt to keep the donor mares there as well for similar reasons. We therefore have livery costs to consider in the equation which is where all the profit goes, even though it's extremely reasonable.

So for us it's going to be an interesting experience rather than a money maker. Step one will be to check that our filly is mature enough at the beginning of March to actually conceive. We'll take it one step at a time from there, and I'm going to keep a close eye on costs all the way through recording everything from stud fees to diesel costs in transporting her to and from Twemlows. I think it's going to be hugely interesting.
 
I am too busy to be doing this but very quickly, this is what we have experienced.
Over the last 5 years we have carried out here approx 11 ET flushes which have resulted in 3 live foals. Best results are with fresh , 2 flushes and 2 foals. Then chilled 3 flushes, 3 embryos but 1 live foal. 6 flushes with frozen and no embryos. From our point of view its the semen quality that makes it a viable gamble but there is no telling some people!

We are considering it for this year with 2 very good mares, mother and daughter both had foals (again increases the odds) but the recipient issue is why we havent done it more often, as our vet said right from the word go to look for recipients that are similar in size and type to the donor mare.

It is a fact that the foals learn from their dams, some of our youngsters are the doubles of their dam's in their behaviour and so more importance needs to be placed on these mares.
To compound what Volatis has said, we visited Schockemohles several years ago and the point was made then that they use similar mares to the donor as recipients because they want to breed competition horses with the same mindset. We also know that in Europe where a very good mare has had 2 foals, one ET and one herself, the ET will always be the one sold because of the nurture issue and it is now proven that the ET's are never as good as their siblings.

So to breed event horses then I would use TB's as recipients now, not a draught type mare.There will be hundreds around now that would love an alternative to heaven. For dressage horses, again there will be plenty of mares with conformation/ injury issues that will make ideal recipients but not broodmares themselves (although a lot of owners will disagree!)
We will use WB's that are conformationaly not good enough for our recipients and the best semen we can get to increase the odds!

We too would love to do ET with a world class mare but the legalities of it as pointed out above would worry me slightly.

Good luck everyone who goes for it!!!
 
This is a very informative and fascinating thread. I want to raise something slightly off topic but still relevant regarding the nurture element.

For all those foals who have been raised by foster mares, is there any experience of the temperament or characteristics being compromised/improved by having a foster mother. Given it is quite common for cob mares to be foster mares, has anyone experience of any "nurture" differences as is suggested for ET foals also.
 
Ginnie,

the post from Aru;

1. It is generally accepted that both AI & ET in cattle are easier to achieve. A neighbour had 94 head of cattle AId, all were in calf. It rarely works with horses, to quite that level, but the success rates, from the competent, are improving annually.

2. I've had a lengthy conversation with a recognised authority on the subject, and he says that the genetics of the foal, will be received from there natural parents, only. I don't know if I'm right, but I would think that if an ET foal were blood tested, then the only indication of parentage, would come from the natural parents. Would blood testing reveal any trace of the recipients influence? I haven't a clue, but somehow I doubt it. There must surely be someone on this forum who can speak with authority.

I don't think that there can be any doubt that the recipient mare, will have some influence upon the foal, from the point of view of its outlook on life. I would also think that if the mare was anything other than ideal, then an early weaning would be the answer.

The interesting point, for me anyway, is if you were to use, for arguments sake an embryo, and from pure bred Arabs, plant it into a Shire, then because of the availability of space, within the recipient mare, then the breeder would probably be very disappointed with the foal. It wouldn't surprise me if the result was of elephantine proportions. That's got nothing to do with genetics, but more to do with the unrestricted space available, whilst in uteri. "IF" I'm right, then I would think that the recipient mare should be as closely matched as is possible to the donor, and for most sport horses, then the redundant TB mare would be ideal. The respected authority who I spoke to also said that there's no reason why the smaller mares shouldn't be considered as suitable recipients, as the foal will catch up to its genetic potential, through the subsequent growth process.

3, I would think that in theory, and to date that's about all that we can rely on, Bedlam's ideas make sound sense. It's something which I've considered and is part of the general plans. The only point where it comes unstuck, is if the ridden plans for the donor filly, turn out to be a disaster, then what have we bred? I know of an Advanced mare, who had an embryo taken when she was 4. The resultant foal is now 7, and very highly regarded. There is little certainty in life!

Further through your post. The question of legal ownership, would be dependent upon a clear and binding agreement, from the very outset. Loose and wishy washy deals, all too often, end in disaster. I would say though, that who ever does the "tailoring" of such an agreement, must consider the best interests of BOTH parties. If an agreement favours one party or the other, then it would be a recipe for a row. I have such an agreement in place, and have made every effort to protect the owner of the donor mare. I don't feel able to discuss further the terms of the agreement which I currently have in place.

The risk of an economic disaster? Most certainly. It's a gamble, nothing more or less. If you can't afford, or perhaps justify, to loose that much money, then don't do it.

The thinking behind it, is that I can't justify spending £75k PLUS, on one Advanced and correct mare. I can however justify the risk of breeding 5 to 8 foals for the same amount of money. I have sought serious advice from the more knowledgable, regarding possible matings, advice which has been freely and willingly given. There may be my advisors, who think that it really is too big a gamble, but to their credit none have actually told me that I'm barking, yet!! If failure is the result, then there will be a cue who will say "Told you so"!! I'm prepared to risk it.

Alec.
 
Irishlife said:
This is a very informative and fascinating thread. I want to raise something slightly off topic but still relevant regarding the nurture element.

For all those foals who have been raised by foster mares, is there any experience of the temperament or characteristics being compromised/improved by having a foster mother. Given it is quite common for cob mares to be foster mares, has anyone experience of any "nurture" differences as is suggested for ET foals also.
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I have no experience of foster mares, apart from the anecdotal advice from 2 highly experienced TB stud farm managers. Both bought in stout cobs as foster mares, and found that as they milked like Jersey cows, the foals were rocketing away, at such a pace, that they had to wean early. When I speak with them next, I'll ask about any other influences the foster mare may have had.

Alec.
 
Greymares said:
I am too busy to be doing this but very quickly, this is what we have experienced.
Over the last 5 years we have carried out here approx 11 ET flushes which have resulted in 3 live foals. Best results are with fresh , 2 flushes and 2 foals. Then chilled 3 flushes, 3 embryos but 1 live foal. 6 flushes with frozen and no embryos. From our point of view its the semen quality that makes it a viable gamble but there is no telling some people!

We are considering it for this year with 2 very good mares, mother and daughter both had foals (again increases the odds) but the recipient issue is why we havent done it more often, as our vet said right from the word go to look for recipients that are similar in size and type to the donor mare.

It is a fact that the foals learn from their dams, some of our youngsters are the doubles of their dam's in their behaviour and so more importance needs to be placed on these mares.
To compound what Volatis has said, we visited Schockemohles several years ago and the point was made then that they use similar mares to the donor as recipients because they want to breed competition horses with the same mindset. We also know that in Europe where a very good mare has had 2 foals, one ET and one herself, the ET will always be the one sold because of the nurture issue and it is now proven that the ET's are never as good as their siblings.

So to breed event horses then I would use TB's as recipients now, not a draught type mare.There will be hundreds around now that would love an alternative to heaven. For dressage horses, again there will be plenty of mares with conformation/ injury issues that will make ideal recipients but not broodmares themselves (although a lot of owners will disagree!)
We will use WB's that are conformationaly not good enough for our recipients and the best semen we can get to increase the odds!

We too would love to do ET with a world class mare but the legalities of it as pointed out above would worry me slightly.

Good luck everyone who goes for it!!!
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Greymares,

I'm so sorry to hear of your difficulties, and would be interested to hear, how many of the transferred embryos displayed a heart beat at the 42 day scan. Or was it that most embryos failed to attach, within the recipient? 3 successful births, from 11 flushes doesn't sound that encouraging.

As you so rightly say, semen quality is vital. Recipient mare suitability is vital. Correct synchronisation of all the mares involved is vital. The use of a competent ET technician is vital. It is a huge financial risk, and everything which we do, which lessens the chances of success is to be avoided. Frozen semen? Not if it was offered to me free of charge. In the case of ageing stallions, I wonder if a relatively weak semen count which none the less achieves a pregnancy, is responsible for a weakened embryo. We need some input from the technically minded!!

I was surprised to hear that on the Continent, the ET foals will be the first to be sold, presumably because they wouldn't be considered as highly as their siblings who were achieved by a more natural process.

We have 2 recipient mares here, carrying embryos from an Intermediate mare. The donor failed to hold to the first AI. She held to the second, and the third, and both embryos had heart beats at 42 days. The vets who performed the work had never done so before. They had a highly competent technician peering over their shoulders, but otherwise that was it.

The legal implications? I'll check with the partner with whom I'm planning this year's attempts. If that partner is happy for me to release the barest bones of our agreement, then I will explain to you how I have reached my current thoughts.

Thank you for your input. It's of real value.

Alec.
 
This is really only intended as an update, and as I've now spoken with my "partner", I'm free to release the details, in just the barest form, of our agreement.

We have an agreement which involves a very well bred 4* mare. Basically, it's this;

I will fund 3, or perhaps 4 attempts to implant 2 embryos. The costs will include both stud fees, all the veterinary work, the keep costs of the recipient mares, all transport costs and the charges which will be levied for the recipient mares to foal at an acceptable stud. In all probability, the stud to be used will be the very same stud, which we will use this year, for the 2 recip mares which we have here. The first is due on the 13th of April, and the second one month later.

At weaning, the donor mare owner will have the right to claim one foal. The choice of which, will be mine. If the donor mare owner, declines the offer of a foal as settlement, then I will pay to them an already agreed figure for both foals. If, at weaning, there is only one surviving foal, then that will either be paid for, by me, at the previously agreed price, or offered to the mare owner, at a discounted price. Assuming that we have 2 healthy and acceptable foals at weaning, then the owner of the claimed foal, will be able to sell it on. It will become their property, to do with, as they wish.

The aspect of legal ownership, is made within the agreement.

The question of recipient mares, is one of interest. There can be no question that the body shape, and mass must match that of the donor, as closely as possible. A "smaller" mare will produce a smaller foal, there's no question of that, but providing that for a 16hh donor, she isn't matched up with a pony, then the foal should reach its genetic potential, from the point of view of height.

I suspect that the problems arise, all so often, when ID or Shire mares are used. Just as a foal will grow in uteri, and be born to the size which the small recip mare will dictate, by the same token, a completely outsized mare will also be able to produce a foal of elephantine proportions, which would be equally unwelcome.

With what I believe to be a dream ticket mare, the stallion hunt is now on. This is where the principles of breeding come in. It's a fascinating subject, and probably one, for the start of another thread!!

Alec.
 
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