Emotional horsemanship

[Caol Ila]

Right, so had a free 30 minute consultation with Lachie Phillips today about Fin.

I gave him the whole story about the horse, and he did not have any great insights on what to do with him. For that, I'd need to get on his program (about £180 squid).

He did offer thoughts on how to think about the horse. After I gave my whole spiel, he said that it's amazing that Fin lets anyone ride him at all. So start there.

He also said the Fin must have a lot of mental aptitude and strength to have got to this point, he must be an extremely nice guy to be ridable and handleable in any sense.

So yeah, think about the horse differently.

I think I did myself and Fin down a bit by rabbiting on about his issues and stuff he doesn't do, rather than talking about stuff he does. I did not, for instance, say that he is quite good on hacks when following a foot soldier. His hacking buddy does not need to be equine. And today, he did the last 100m of the hack all on his own because OH veered off to fetch Hermosa from her field. Fin just kept going, and I even got a canter on the gallop once we got to the yard.

He said he has a groundwork technique that's sort of vaguely along the lines of join-up, but it isn't aversive (so not chasing the horse until it gives in). It apparently helps you develop connection and trust. To learn exactly what this is, you'd have to join the online course. I am very curious and intrigued. Maybe it will transform my horsemanship, in which case it's worth £180. On the other hand, a part of me would rather spend money on a trainer who can be physically present. But there isn't anyone locally who can approach things with my horse the way he needs. I dunno.... I'm on the fence. Hence posting here!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Never heard of Lachie Phillips but i think in general, there is a real limit to what you can learn online. I think you (people) need someone with eyes on the ground seeing the horse in real time. I worked through the Buck Brannaman 7 Clinics videos. There was nothing wrong with the horsemanship on those videos but I did not gain ANY benefit from working through the excerices.

The Joe Midgley clinic emphasised that. Take a simple 'roll the hind quarters then bring the front across to switch direction' exercise. I watched it, I practiced it and Lottie got very good at it. So I showed Joe (hey look we can do something well) and it was not at all useful. It looked like the videos but Lottie is clever and just knew that as soon as I asked her to step her hind end across, the next step was switching direction and she anticipated. I was thrilled with how light, easy and smooth it was - but it was pointless because she was not listening to me. And her whole problem is she anticipates and takes over. So actually she needed to learn to wait for direction. A video would never have given me that. Nor even an online course. I needed someone on the ground working her to really figure her out and give me bespoke exercises to address the issues. I had a story in mind of the whys and wherefores of her behaviour but Joe needed to get a feel for her himself to advise properly.

I'd personally travel further for face to face than pay for something online. But be interested to hear from anyone whp has done that course or similar.

 

[stangs]

He does sales on his Udemy courses every once in a while - there was one around Christmas, and maybe around Easter last year too - so you could wait for that. Alternatively, you could become a Patreon member, which will cost you less upfront, and see how you feel.

I agree with AE that you'll probably be wanting someone in person, either to complement online learning, or as your main source of info, but can't think of anyone who'd be suitable.

 

[Roxylola]

I think you doubt your own skills and ability too much. You've got good intuition about this horse and your wheels seem to fall off only really when you get hung up on what you "should" be doing with him. Lots of horses don't like hacking alone for no good reason. Fin actually has good reason at least.



I feel like you over think too much. You've done a good job with him, you're on the right track. I understand wanting eyes on the ground but what are your goals with him? Because I think you've come a long way towards that just working with your horse and listening to him

 

[Caol Ila]

Never heard of Lachie Phillips but i think in general, there is a real limit to what you can learn online. I think you (people) need someone with eyes on the ground seeing the horse in real time. I worked through the Buck Brannaman 7 Clinics videos. There was nothing wrong with the horsemanship on those videos but I did not gain ANY benefit from working through the excerices.

The Joe Midgley clinic emphasised that. Take a simple 'roll the hind quarters then bring the front across to switch direction' exercise. I watched it, I practiced it and Lottie got very good at it. So I showed Joe (hey look we can do something well) and it was not at all useful. It looked like the videos but Lottie is clever and just knew that as soon as I asked her to step her hind end across, the next step was switching direction and she anticipated. I was thrilled with how light, easy and smooth it was - but it was pointless because she was not listening to me. And her whole problem is she anticipates and takes over. So actually she needed to learn to wait for direction. A video would never have given me that. Nor even an online course. I needed someone on the ground working her to really figure her out and give me bespoke exercises to address the issues. I had a story in mind of the whys and wherefores of her behaviour but Joe needed to get a feel for her himself to advise properly.

I'd personally travel further for face to face than pay for something online. But be interested to hear from anyone whp has done that course or similar.

I too would love to hear from someone who has had success with an online course. Any online course. I completely agree that eyes on the ground can pick up on little things, which is obviously impossible with anything on the internet.

I don't have transport, and hiring it would add £200-300 in addition to insane costs of whatever expensive clinic I went to, plus I'd have to ask more than I already do of long-suffering OH because I can't drive a manual and all horsebox hires are manuals.

I know you saw me ride Gypsum at that Mark Rashid clinic in 2016, but that was partly me thinking "f*ck it" because my then-partner had just been diagnosed with MND, so f*ck it, I was doing the £400 clinic, and luck, because I had a friend who let me borrow her trailer, and my old car had a hitch. That friend is now in Germany, and my current car does not have a hitch. I also can't go back to that yard for clinics but as you know, that's another story!

Realistically, life being what it is, I need someone who can come to me. And there is no one.

Perhaps Roxylola is right. I get hung up when things go wrong with both horses. But so often, they go right. Like today, I had both. I finished a hack with Hermosa, two other horses, and OH on foot. The other two horses stopped at the outdoor arena to go over some jumps. OH ran off to turn on the lights for them, as it was kind of twilight. I asked Hermosa to continue alone and go through the archway into the barn's courtyard. She got as far as the archway, then balked at going through it. Nothing terrible. Some planting. Some reversing. I gently urged her forward but she wasn't happy. Two other owners appeared, chatting to each other, and I asked them to give me the lead. One did, and Hermosa followed her through the archway.

What went right? Almost everything.

What went wrong? Expecting the four-year old who's been backed for a month to cope with her herd splitting three ways. But she did not have a major meltdown, and I got the friendly livery to help us out pretty quick.

He does sales on his Udemy courses every once in a while - there was one around Christmas, and maybe around Easter last year too - so you could wait for that. Alternatively, you could become a Patreon member, which will cost you less upfront, and see how you feel.

I agree with AE that you'll probably be wanting someone in person, either to complement online learning, or as your main source of info, but can't think of anyone who'd be suitable.

I think I am a Patreon member. Might see how discounted it gets. If it was sub-100, it would be an easier decision. Some trainers like Warwick Schiller put up enough free videos on YouTube that you get a good sense of their techniques and what they're doing. You can learn a lot from Warwick's free videos. If you subcribed to whatever subscription thing he has, you have a sense of what he's doing with the horses.

This trainer writes a lot of stuff that sounds amazing, and the videos I've seen look good. Over Zoom, he definitely got what I was saying about Fin more than any other trainer I have spoken to. But he keeps the stuff that shows his precise techniques and how he communicates and connects with the horse behind a paywall. So you have no idea.

 

[maya2008]

In terms of learning from a book/info with no physical trainer present, I played around with the ideas from Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling’s book when I got my first owned horse many years ago. Managed to follow the instructions from the book fine and still use aspects of it today. Handy stuff you can do without an arena or special equipment, that works. Brushed off the book and lent it to my husband when we bought his cob- aged 3 with no idea how to lead and all the power in the world to drag a human - and he followed it too, with success once again. It turned a fire breathing dragging dragon into a pony a small child can lead. Need to make my son do the same with the latest project…now to find the thing!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

It must be hard to feel so isolated. But I just don’t believe in ‘techniques’. I think a trainer’s value lies in their understanding of a horse and their thoughtful responses that are based on that understanding and are totally unique to that horse in that context. And I believe you would have a better understanding than an online trainer so you on your own with the benefit of the horse in front of you is better then something online.

I agree with RL: trust your own experience, judgement and understanding of your horses.

 

[planete]

I have watched his free videos and I think he is putting a lot of spin on fairly simple techniques. He is putting a lot of emphasis on listening to what the horses are saying and how they feel which is great but you are already doing that. I have now given up trying to get anybody to help me with Woody. I just listen to him. Everything I do to him on the ground is done with him loose so he can evade anything he is doubtful about until we have worked out an acceptable compromise. We have good draw when working at liberty in the school because the dialogue is totally two ways. He is becoming noticeably less reactive with this regime, telling me when he is worried about something instead of reacting first. He knows I will just ask and reassure but never force him to do anything. I agree, trust yourself and your horse.

 

[AntiPuck]

In terms of learning from a book/info with no physical trainer present, I played around with the ideas from Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling’s book when I got my first owned horse many years ago. Managed to follow the instructions from the book fine and still use aspects of it today. Handy stuff you can do without an arena or special equipment, that works. Brushed off the book and lent it to my husband when we bought his cob- aged 3 with no idea how to lead and all the power in the world to drag a human - and he followed it too, with success once again. It turned a fire breathing dragging dragon into a pony a small child can lead. Need to make my son do the same with the latest project…now to find the thing!

Which of his books was it that you'd bought, maya?

 

[Highmileagecob]

A fair few of the training ideas I have seen all show the end result behaving admirably in the menage. No one shows the same horse on a showground, or hacking past the local football kickabout area, or being ridden through the town centre, which, depending on your circumstances, are all possibilities. Fin is a typical native, who recognises you as herd leader when it suits him. Any native owner is very familiar with their outlook on life. I think you are doing a brilliant job.

 

[scats]

I’ve always been a believer that each horse is an individual and that methods have to be adapted to suit whatever you are working with. I know there’s things I can ask of Polly and not Millie, and vice versa. It’s just a case of finding where the boundaries are with each and working within their comfort zone to still achieve what you want (within their capabilities). I’m not sure you can really get this from an online course.

Im also wary of horsemanship people who put too much emphasis on trying to psychoanalyse a horse, particularly those who discuss their backstory in an almost human way. It’s useful to consider the past issues a horse has had, but I do think that too much awareness of this from the people handling the animal can actually bring about problems.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I've taken an online course and felt that I got a lot out of it. But having a trainer you trust and respect in-person is really helpful if possible...it took me a while to find someone who felt 'right' for me and my horse.

Have you heard of Elsa Sinclair/Freedom Based Training? I wonder if her kind of approach would work well for Fin. She has a lot of videos on Youtube and free content. Her film 'Taming Wild' is amazing - she took a pretty much wild/feral mustang from a BLM roundup and trained her with her method, which uses no external reinforcement, more so emotion, feel, body language - pretty remarkable.

Her Youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/c/ElsaSinclair

 

[maya2008]

Which of his books was it that you'd bought, maya?

Dancing with Horses

 

[Caol Ila]

I've taken an online course and felt that I got a lot out of it. But having a trainer you trust and respect in-person is really helpful if possible...it took me a while to find someone who felt 'right' for me and my horse.

Have you heard of Elsa Sinclair/Freedom Based Training? I wonder if her kind of approach would work well for Fin. She has a lot of videos on Youtube and free content. Her film 'Taming Wild' is amazing - she took a pretty much wild/feral mustang from a BLM roundup and trained her with her method, which uses no external reinforcement, more so emotion, feel, body language - pretty remarkable.

Her Youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/c/ElsaSinclair

I haven't heard of her. Looks like she does clinics all over the world, including Gretna in June. That's a few days before I'm getting married, so pretty much no chance of getting to it.

I suppose I want to see this non-external reinforcement training in action - before I commit to £180. What are people actually doing? How is it different than Warwick Schiller, say, who has tons of free stuff online?

In the meantime, Fin has taken a turn for the better during the last month. Everything went backwards from the start of November onwards, and he seemed tense and unhappy. I changed a couple things with diet and tack, and I kept him ticking over in light work - only short hacks in company when and if company was available.

No idea what made things go south. Change in daylight, the change from night to day turnout, Hermosa moving in next door, which changed the dynamics of our little herd (me, Fin, OH, and now her), maybe muscle pain around the poll neither the physio nor vet detected....who knows....

He is acting a lot less spooky and reactive, and I'm riding him a bit more.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Possibly bonfire night/week had a bit to do with it. Does he respond to praise, scratches on the withers, gentle pull on the ears etc.? If you have turned a corner and seem to be making progress, then you are definitely on his wavelength.

 

[JFTDWS]

I may be doing this bloke a huge injustice, but the whole "to see my magic technique, you have to buy into the cult" reminds me of Parelli back in the day. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of secret, magic exercises that will really change your relationship with the horse, and I'm even more uncomfortable with the idea of this being behind a paywall with no idea what you're signing up for.

I really sympathise with how you're feeling - looking for input in what you're doing, doubting your own approach, over-analysing everything, expecting too much and focussing on the minor bits that could be improved rather than the big bits that went well - these are all things I do myself, and it's pretty depressing. I don't think an online course will change those things.

Horses do tend to go back and forward a bit on the progress front - it's normal (ime) to have odd days / weeks / months where things aren't going so well, and I tend to chalk it up to variations in weather / grass / workload / management / environment first, potential pain second (unless it's a clear or sustained pain reaction, obviously) and a training failure last of all.

For some people, their training may the first thing they should consider, but often they're the people who don't even realise there could be anything wrong with their approach or riding. You're a competent horse person, with a great horsecentric ethos, so that doesn't remotely apply to you.

That's not to say we don't all have stuff to learn, but it's less about techniques and more about timing, feel, intent, tact - all the soft stuff that's nearly impossible to teach and you have to feel your own way into - the stuff you can't really learn online.

 

[HeyMich]

Have you ever had a session with Anne Currie? She's very local to you and I think she would do exactly what you are looking for. http://www.ac-horsemanship.co.uk/

 

[HashRouge]

I may be doing this bloke a huge injustice, but the whole "to see my magic technique, you have to buy into the cult" reminds me of Parelli back in the day. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of secret, magic exercises that will really change your relationship with the horse, and I'm even more uncomfortable with the idea of this being behind a paywall with no idea what you're signing up for.

I really sympathise with how you're feeling - looking for input in what you're doing, doubting your own approach, over-analysing everything, expecting too much and focussing on the minor bits that could be improved rather than the big bits that went well - these are all things I do myself, and it's pretty depressing. I don't think an online course will change those things.

Horses do tend to go back and forward a bit on the progress front - it's normal (ime) to have odd days / weeks / months where things aren't going so well, and I tend to chalk it up to variations in weather / grass / workload / management / environment first, potential pain second (unless it's a clear or sustained pain reaction, obviously) and a training failure last of all.

For some people, their training may the first thing they should consider, but often they're the people who don't even realise there could be anything wrong with their approach or riding. You're a competent horse person, with a great horsecentric ethic, so that doesn't remotely apply to you.

That's not to say we don't all have stuff to learn, but it's less about techniques and more about timing, feel, intent, tact - all the soft stuff that's nearly impossible to teach and you have to feel your own way into - the stuff you can't really learn online.

I was about to post something similar. I am phenomenally sceptical of someone claiming to have a "magic" technique that will only be revealed once you pay them £180. I am also not sure how much impact I would expect an online course to have, versus having someone there in person (I appreciate this is tricky OP, and partly why you are looking at online options).

 

[Miss_Millie]

I haven't heard of her. Looks like she does clinics all over the world, including Gretna in June. That's a few days before I'm getting married, so pretty much no chance of getting to it.

I suppose I want to see this non-external reinforcement training in action - before I commit to £180. What are people actually doing? How is it different than Warwick Schiller, say, who has tons of free stuff online?

In the meantime, Fin has taken a turn for the better during the last month. Everything went backwards from the start of November onwards, and he seemed tense and unhappy. I changed a couple things with diet and tack, and I kept him ticking over in light work - only short hacks in company when and if company was available.

No idea what made things go south. Change in daylight, the change from night to day turnout, Hermosa moving in next door, which changed the dynamics of our little herd (me, Fin, OH, and now her), maybe muscle pain around the poll neither the physio nor vet detected....who knows....

He is acting a lot less spooky and reactive, and I'm riding him a bit more.

Elsa trains differently to Lockie - she doesn't use any kind of tack/equipment. No pressure/release and no R+. Her Taming Wild video doesn't cost much to download, I'd really recommend it. It think it was around £4.00. They both seem to be in the same sort of sphere as Warwick Schiller, in their mindsets about how horses should be treated.

As someone else said you could join Lockie's Patreon for a month, it doesn't cost much, there are lots of good videos on there. His course has very good reviews, I would like to take it myself but can't afford it at the moment. Maybe one day.

 

[Caol Ila]

I might be a Patreon member anyway. I think.

Training without tack/equipment isn't that useful since I can't do liberty work. We're not allowed to have our horses loose in the schools. I guess I could do some things in the field but there's 12-15 of my horses' best friends milling around.

 

[Caol Ila]

I could also take 'lessons' from OH, who seems to be a natural horse whisperer. He likes animals but only started coming to the barn regularly during lockdown and then did increasingly more to help with Gypsum. He got competent enough to hand-graze her by himself during the period of time where she was no longer ridable and Hermosa was at a different barn. Maybe she told him all the secrets.

Anyway, he is now very competent at all aspects of horse care and handling, except for riding, which he has no interest in doing, but he will confidently lead one horse through the park while I ride the other one. When DIY liveries do shared turnout/bring-in duties, he happily handles other people's horses as well. They all love him. I think my horses like him more than they like me. He just has a way of connecting to horses that sets boundaries, so he's not getting run over, but they worship the ground he walks on and will do anything he asks.

I asked him what his magic is, and he shrugged and said, "I dunno. I just talk to them and treat them like equal beings."

 

[stangs]

My working hypothesis, absolutely unproven, is that (confident) non-horsey people are more present when around horses than most of us horsey folk. Plus they have much lower expectations of themselves/the horse than we do, and fewer past experiences to have stuffed a lot of tension and predictions in them. Hence why horses are often keener on them.

The extension of that hypothesis is that non-horsey people tend to be more respectful of horse's boundaries and don't get in their space as much, which the horse then reciprocates.

Mind you, this is based on a sample size of 1 so...

 

[planete]

Horse people know how quickly things can go drastically wrong with horses and it can unconsciously ever so slightly influence our behaviour no matter how much self control we may have. I always used my OH to be the person on the ground when backing a horse. He would just stand there holding or leading the horse, singing a Scottish dirge under his breath, relaxed as anything and nothing ever went wrong. A young horse mad girl volunteered her help once with a young mare I was breaking and the mare was a bit too nervous for my liking until one day the girl did not turn up and we had our calmest session ever. The girl had not looked tense to me but the mare knew.

 

[pistolpete]

Great trainers have three things. Consistency feel and timing. Ben hart does a much cheaper monthly on line course which is excellent. Also connection training based on clicker is available on line monthly fee. Like both of these approaches. Highlands can be tricky. Super intelligent instinctive with strong self preservation and strength. Best of luck.

 

[Skib]

And her whole problem is she anticipates and takes over.

Horses do anticipate the whole time but that isnt necessarilly unhelpful when riding for instance a dressage test. I dont jump but I imagie it helps when jumping too. I remember William Funnel jumping and winning on a mare who, he said, took over after the first few jumps.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I am happy for her to anticipate when I say 'ok go' eg on a XC course. I do let her do her job. But there are times when I don't want her anticipating eg picking up canter as soon as we change the rein after a canter on the other rein. Or when I am directing her movements very precisely. So she needs to know when she can crack on using her own experience and knowlege of the job, and when she needs to listen.

 

[Skib]

So she needs to know when she can crack on using her own experience and knowlege of the job, and when she needs to listen.

She wont know that, you have to teach her. If it isnt right, reject it. And at once.
And provide plenty of variation, so she cant predict. I bought a complete set of dressage tests so I had a different test to ride in my lesson each week, but the tests at a particular level included the same elements.

 

[stangs]

She wont know that, you have to teach her. If it isnt right, reject it. And at once.

Slightly strange advice. Have you read the thread on AE's mare? Of all the posters on this forum, I think AE's one of the best in terms of training her horse, especially given all the stuff she's having to retrain.

 

[Goldenstar]

I dont do gurus and while I don’t know this man it sounds a bit like guru syndrome to me.
I would invest in one to one help .

 

[tristar]

I could also take 'lessons' from OH, who seems to be a natural horse whisperer. He likes animals but only started coming to the barn regularly during lockdown and then did increasingly more to help with Gypsum. He got competent enough to hand-graze her by himself during the period of time where she was no longer ridable and Hermosa was at a different barn. Maybe she told him all the secrets.

Anyway, he is now very competent at all aspects of horse care and handling, except for riding, which he has no interest in doing, but he will confidently lead one horse through the park while I ride the other one. When DIY liveries do shared turnout/bring-in duties, he happily handles other people's horses as well. They all love him. I think my horses like him more than they like me. He just has a way of connecting to horses that sets boundaries, so he's not getting run over, but they worship the ground he walks on and will do anything he asks.

I asked him what his magic is, and he shrugged and said, "I dunno. I just talk to them and treat them like equal beings."

i talk to our horses as if they are people who understand every word i say

very often they look at me intensely when i am doing jobs, ears very forward, studying me, but i do think they like the sound of my voice for some reason