EMS and laminitis

Leo Walker

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
12,384
Location
Northampton
Visit site
Frankie has come down with laminitis :( I'm absolutely gutted! He has been managed so, so, so carefully all year. He is now pretty much perfect weight wise if not a little bit light now, he was in a reasonable level of work and is always managed as if he has EMS anyway. Hes in a bit of a state and until I get Xrays next week I wont have any sort of prognosis for him.

Anyway, there has to be some sort of underlying issue, and its pretty much a given he has insulin resistance otherwise he would never have got lammi, but given his weight and management there must be something else going on. The vet thinks he has been on the edge of lammi for a while and the cold temps and grass have tipped him over the edge. I am really not sure if thats the case! Hes barefoot and if he was then I think I would have known about it. He was absolutely rock crunching on Sunday afternoon, went brilliantly, fine Monday morning, crippled Monday 3pm :'( Plus given how fat he was and how poor his management was when he was on full livery at the beginning of the year, then thats when he should have got it surely, not now when hes slim and fit and managed carefully?!

Hes only 6 so cushings is a long shot, but he will be tested for that just in case. My vet wants to wait and do the starved glucose test for EMS once hes over this, but I'm VERY dubious about giving a lammi horse a dose of glucose. What are the other tests? I'm sure there have been people who have posted about blood tests without the glucose for it?

And if anyone has any positive stories about long term recovery I'd love to hear them! Hes not out of the woods by a long shot, but if/when he is I have no idea about how I can manage him other than to keep him totally grass less which will be an absolute nightmare given the choice of livery yards locally
 
We didn't do the starve glucose test as it was too much a risk with mines rotation.

They just came out first call and took bloods making sure he hadn't had anything from 10pm the night before.
 
We have a wee ems Shetland mare. She is 16 now, diagnosed when she was 6 or 7 you. Had a foal after diagnosis and has pretty much lived the life of reily since. She was never a ridden pony and she lives with my darty on little grass bur does get hay and feed. She only had one set back a few years ago when she escaped... Typical ****land! But otherwise has been fine and dandy.
 
Slightlyconfused said:
We didn't do the starve glucose test as it was too much a risk with mines rotation.

They just came out first call and took bloods making sure he hadn't had anything from 10pm the night before.
Click to expand...

I need to ask him about it again. When he came out as an emergency I was passed myself with worry and took nothing in, then he came back out and I'm still not sure I discussed it properly as when he wouldnt give me a prognosis I went into melt down a bit!
 
Oh no :( Poor Frankie.

Hopefully you have caught it very early.

I have one pony who we think has EMS and we manage her as such, and we used to have an elderly mare who we suspected had it. She definitely had Cushings and the vet said more likely than not, EMS too. He said it wasn't worth testing and to just treat her as if. So I have never actually tested. Just kept as fit and lean as possible, and soaked hay/muzzled as appropriate.

Sending lots of lami-busting HHO vibes. Horrible, horrible illness xx
 
I know how hard you have worked to get his weight under control so it seems very unfair that this should happen now but laminitis can do this at times there seems to be no reason why it comes when it does and it could be anything that has pushed him over the edge however carefully you try..
I would ask the vet what the treatment options are and what difference the glucose test will make to the treatment, medication and prognosis, my guess will be very little and like you I would be very reluctant to give a huge dose of glucose just to confirm what you already suspect from the clinical signs, they do like to tick all the boxes and sometimes ticking a box is a risk worth taking other times it is a step too far and will make no difference to the treatment plan or recovery.

My vet was happy to put one of mine on a short, one month, course of metformin, it really helped get the fat pads reduced and they stayed off with the management being no different before, during or after the course, not all vets feel it is a useful drug but a short course should do no harm although I am not sure it is beneficial longer term, if it works it should be obvious and they can come off it from my understanding that is better than continuing with it but they do seem to vary in opinions and experiences.
 
Never had a full blown lammi but the ocasions where my mare has gone footy has been around this time never spring, always quite suddenly. Can now detect very subtle signs so know to bring her in & soak her hay until she is comfortable. I have only just taken muzzle off as grass doesn't seem to be growing & she's a good on body score. Has handful thunderbrook chaff & top spec lite all year round which is sufficient for her. Muzzled from start of March to early October every day.
 
be positive said:
I know how hard you have worked to get his weight under control so it seems very unfair that this should happen now but laminitis can do this at times there seems to be no reason why it comes when it does and it could be anything that has pushed him over the edge however carefully you try.
Click to expand...

Thats the big kicker for me :( I have dieted him so hard and manged him so, so, so carefully and for this to happen now feels like a massive kick in the teeth for us both :( I've seen lots of full blown and lots of not diagnosed LGL horses but nothing quite like the state I found him in. But what can you do! Its happened and I am just praying that I can get him right and that nothings rotated etc.

He gets a mineral balancer with a full whack of magnesium so thats covered. I've just started some cinnamon on the basis that is cant hurt and may well help.

Even the vet says hes perfect condition wise and thats what worries me! If hes already managed for EMS and isnt fat then what the hell can I do?! I was watching for frosts and having a new puppy I am outside at 3.30am and again at 5.30am and I've not seen any frost or even felt cold standing outside in my pants waiting for a puppy to pee :lol: My OH works nights and he hasnt seen any either, nor has the vet. A friend with a yard over the road says there has been frost a couple of weeks ago so maybe its just that, but he has continued to lose weight so he cant have been getting much from the grass. Either way we have a problem and I need to get a grip on it.

He has been out on loan and boomeranged back before and every time I even think about selling him something happens. The day this happened I had finally decided that I just couldnt physically manage a horse anymore and he was supposed to be turned away for the winter and probably sold in the spring, and I had an appointment to look at a lovely new place for him to winter out. So this just feels like Frankie not wanting to go away again :lol:
 
Oh no, poor Frankie. Unfortunately, you may never discover what has triggered it. I've always suspected that my big wb has sub-clinical lgl. Two days ago I started him on cinnamon and he is a different horse. Try to use the stuff from Ceylon, sometimes called 'true' cinnamon.
Here's to a good recovery. X
 
Oh, that's really unfair, after all the effort you've out into keeping him trim. Fingers crossed for a prompt and full recovery.

Maybe pm Adorable Alice on here, her cob mare went down with an unexpected lami attack a while ago, and like yours she was young and fit and on a careful diet. I'm sure she came good afterwards. I don't know if any underlying cause was found which triggered it off.

Good luck.
 
Sorry your boy has come down with lami, it's a horrible thing to have to deal with. You mentioned he is fed mag ox - do you also feed salt with that? The two require each other to properly absorb into the horse's system as far as I understand things. Could be worth upping his sale intake. I hope he's feeling better soon.
 
Is it possible he has done something to give himself traumatic laminitis?
My mare is very nervous, and if the others go out of the yard before I can get her in, she goes mad running Round.
This causes concussion, and in turn that has triggered laminitis.
Traumatic laminitis is caused by any kind of trauma, even trotting on a road may cause it.
My OH is a farrier before anyone says anything about other underlying Causes,and my mare does not have EMS or anything else.
 
Mine was diagnosed with EMS recently. he is 9. he has always had a big crest and fat pads over shoulders, but weight wise he is as he should be. he is on metformin and its got rid of fat pads. he became footsore behind (I had him barefoot behind) and now he has to be shod all round. he is on soaked hay and organic, low sugar feed. No muzzle- I hate them, and ridden at least 4 times a week. I'm hoping the shoeing has meant that lami will not occur as I believe the concussion may have caused it if I'd left it.
 
Probably doesn't help to throw this in to the mix but I once had a welsh pony come down with lami due, in part, to rubbish feet trimming and the resulting concussion.
 
It's not just frost that increases the sugar in grass it's when temperatures drop below 6 degrees Celsius accompanied by sunny days.Then the grass is accumulating sugar in the day but it's too cold to grow and use them up. Liphook hospital who do the insulin testing will accept Karo light corn syrup instead of glucose for the dynamic test,please don't give glucose when the horse has active laminitis. try looking up Talk about Laminitis and the Laminitis Site,a mine of information. Good luck.
 
Clare85 said:
Sorry your boy has come down with lami, it's a horrible thing to have to deal with. You mentioned he is fed mag ox - do you also feed salt with that? The two require each other to properly absorb into the horse's system as far as I understand things. Could be worth upping his sale intake. I hope he's feeling better soon.
Click to expand...

He gets 40gms a day. I'm always telling people about how important salt is, I think a lot of people feed too little :)

Spottyappy said:
Is it possible he has done something to give himself traumatic laminitis?
Click to expand...

I wouldnt have thought so, hes not one for running about but who knows what they get up to when your not watching them1

southerncomfort said:
Probably doesn't help to throw this in to the mix but I once had a welsh pony come down with lami due, in part, to rubbish feet trimming and the resulting concussion.
Click to expand...

Hes got fab feet. Hes been pretty much self trimming the last couple of months due to doing more work. The vets happy with his foot balance anyway so dont think its a factor in his case
 
OLDGREYMARE said:
It's not just frost that increases the sugar in grass it's when temperatures drop below 6 degrees Celsius accompanied by sunny days.Then the grass is accumulating sugar in the day but it's too cold to grow and use them up. Liphook hospital who do the insulin testing will accept Karo light corn syrup instead of glucose for the dynamic test,please don't give glucose when the horse has active laminitis. try looking up Talk about Laminitis and the Laminitis Site,a mine of information. Good luck.
Click to expand...
Good, informative site.
I also rug mine according to temperature. It's a nightmare having to rely on their accuracy though!
She is currently not clipped, naked during the day but has been in an unlined rug when night time temperatures have fallen below 8 on my phone as I know it's always 2/3 degrees cooler where she us.
 
OLDGREYMARE said:
It's not just frost that increases the sugar in grass it's when temperatures drop below 6 degrees Celsius accompanied by sunny days.Then the grass is accumulating sugar in the day but it's too cold to grow and use them up. Liphook hospital who do the insulin testing will accept Karo light corn syrup instead of glucose for the dynamic test,please don't give glucose when the horse has active laminitis. try looking up Talk about Laminitis and the Laminitis Site,a mine of information. Good luck.
Click to expand...

I'm almost certain its not been that cold here. Its unseasonably warm this year and I'm wandering about in a T-shirt a lot of the time. No EMS testing is being done while he actively has lammi, but I'm still concerned about it being done full stop. It just seems like madness to give a laminitic a shot of glucose!
 
Spottyappy said:
Good, informative site.
I also rug mine according to temperature. It's a nightmare having to rely on their accuracy though!
She is currently not clipped, naked during the day but has been in an unlined rug when night time temperatures have fallen below 8 on my phone as I know it's always 2/3 degrees cooler where she us.
Click to expand...

Hes a hot, incredibly fluffy horse, if I rugged him now he'd melt :lol:
 
FrankieCob said:
Hes a hot, incredibly fluffy horse, if I rugged him now he'd melt :lol:
Click to expand...
Lol, mine is the Welsh cob diva!
She Doesn't need rugging,but in view of sugars and cold affecting laminitis, I rug to try and avoid repeat sessions. Hence why at the moment it's just an unlined sheet, as it helps reduce the effects of weather.
 
My wee welshie had repeated bouts of lammi from mid August to end Sept despite being a good weight and being taken off grass and fed soaked hay immediately he showed signs of the first attack. Eventually the penny dropped and I tested him for ppid despite him being only 8. His levels were only 64, over but borderline once corrected for the seasonal rise. 3 weeks on 1/2 prascend daily and he is out 8 hours a day in a bald paddock and no sign of footiness. Don't discount ppid just because of age, my friends horse has just tested off the scale but no lammi so I guess some are more sensitive to metabolic upsets than others. Definitely worth checking. Hope he is less sore soon, miserable disease :(
 
FrankieCob said:
Thats the big kicker for me :( I have dieted him so hard and manged him so, so, so carefully and for this to happen now feels like a massive kick in the teeth for us both :( I've seen lots of full blown and lots of not diagnosed LGL horses but nothing quite like the state I found him in. But what can you do! Its happened and I am just praying that I can get him right and that nothings rotated etc.

He gets a mineral balancer with a full whack of magnesium so thats covered. I've just started some cinnamon on the basis that is cant hurt and may well help.

Even the vet says hes perfect condition wise and thats what worries me! If hes already managed for EMS and isnt fat then what the hell can I do?! I was watching for frosts and having a new puppy I am outside at 3.30am and again at 5.30am and I've not seen any frost or even felt cold standing outside in my pants waiting for a puppy to pee :lol: My OH works nights and he hasnt seen any either, nor has the vet. A friend with a yard over the road says there has been frost a couple of weeks ago so maybe its just that, but he has continued to lose weight so he cant have been getting much from the grass. Either way we have a problem and I need to get a grip on it.

He has been out on loan and boomeranged back before and every time I even think about selling him something happens. The day this happened I had finally decided that I just couldnt physically manage a horse anymore and he was supposed to be turned away for the winter and probably sold in the spring, and I had an appointment to look at a lovely new place for him to winter out. So this just feels like Frankie not wanting to go away again :lol:
Click to expand...

hi how is fc? where were you going to look at wintering out? a friend looking to do the same...nice if a place is rec or word of mouth-thanks x
 
Very bright and happy in himself now, but still crippled. Hes having xrays tomorrow so will know a bit more then.

Theres a few places with spaces. Grendon definitely has 1
 
Sounds like you have been very unlucky - is there any possibility that someone could have fed him something he should not have had?
 
Every possibility, the yard is a riding school as well and he is incredibly charming when hes on the scrounge. Hes started kicking the door when people go by, clearly because hes expecting treats and now I have told everyone not to under pain of death, so hes most put out!
 
Sorry to hear this. How's he doing now?
Vet came out to mine last week and did a new blood test for ems which didn't require starving or glucose and is supposed to be more reliable. I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head but will dig out the invoice tomorrow evening when I'm home if you want.
The 'affluent malnutrition - ems/obesity/laminitis' page on facebook is also an interesting read particularly if you're open to alternative approaches.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top