Encysted Wormer question

[SO1]

Bert has had two FECs Oct and Jan and one Tapeworm saliva test all came back low.

Blood tested for encysted redworm last week came back high so plan was to give him an equest today. However things did not go to plan. I got the syringe out and set it at 400. Put it in his mouth and pressed it and thought it had gone in and thought job done that was easy. I should have been suspicious as he didn't make the face he normally makes when having something unpleasant.

Then I looked at the syringe when I had taken it out of his mouth and it seemed to be set at 500 thought that was a bit weird pushed it and a whole load of wormer came out so thought that was a bit weird, so much that I am not not sure if Bert got any wormer or not when I put in the first time as it looked like a lot for just 100. My first panic when I saw it was set at 500 was that that I had overdosed him and then read that they can have up to three times too much and be ok but then my concern was that he may not have got any wormer or not enough.

Then so tried to get what was left which was not that much on to a treat and a bit into his dinner. (Yes in hindsight not sensible).

So now I am worried he has not had enough wormer and is going to die of encysted redworm migration.

So the question is can I give him another equest in a couple of weeks time just to be sure that the encysted is gone before spring or perhaps can I give 5 day panacur as back up. I know there can be resistance to panacur.

I am with Westgate so will give them a call on Monday.

I am absolutely paranoid about worms after Homey got a really bad Tapeworm infestation many years ago and was really ill and almost needed to be hospitalised. This was when he was on a worming program with intelligent worming and 2 Tapewormers a year and FEC but before saliva tests were invented. It got to the point where he was having to have a tape worm treatment every 6 weeks as he kept getting reinfested and he was referred to a parasite specialist. We moved yards to where I am now and he never had a Tapeworm problem again but since the situation with Homey I have always tested a lot for worms including the saliva test when it first came out

I think what has probably happened is that when I wormed him at what I thought was 400 and put it into his mouth and pushed it nothing happened so when I took it out thinking it was done it was not done and then pushed it again and what came out was probably the full dose at 400 or 500 so he has probably had very little of the wormer.

It was just one of those days when I was not on the ball as his muzzle had really rubbed his nose and everything was a bit stressful.

 

[Jambarissa]

I had an issue with my syringe this time too. Opposite problem, I set mine to 550 and it was empty when done so I assume the whole lot got sucked in in a vacuum.

In your situation I'd probably wait a week or two then worm again but obviously you'll get best advice from Westgate.

I'm quite surprised your blood test came back high when all counts have been low. Guess that's why we do them.

 

[SO1]

I had an issue with my syringe this time too. Opposite problem, I set mine to 550 and it was empty when done so I assume the whole lot got sucked in in a vacuum.

In your situation I'd probably wait a week or two then worm again but obviously you'll get best advice from Westgate.

I'm quite surprised your blood test came back high when all counts have been low. Guess that's why we do them.

Encysted red worm won't show up on FECS unfortunately. But his count in October was 150 and Jan one was 50. He 5 will be 6 in June and Encysted redworm more of an issue in youngsters.

 

[criso]

I would maybe ask Westgate about whether retesting for encysted might be an option and what would be the correct interval. Then you know if he needs reworming or not.

You don't want to worm again if you have successfully because of resistance problems and it's a reasonably harsh chemical on the other hand, you're not 100% sure if he got the right amount.

I know you do worm counts 10-14 days after worming to check if it's worked but not sure about the redworm tests. Tapeworm you redo the saliva tests 2-3 months after so it does vary between types of tests.

 

[SO1]

I would maybe ask Westgate about whether retesting for encysted might be an option and what would be the correct interval. Then you know if he needs reworming or not.

You don't want to worm again if you have successfully because of resistance problems and it's a reasonably harsh chemical on the other hand, you're not 100% sure if he got the right amount.

I know you do worm counts 10-14 days after worming to check if it's worked but not sure about the redworm tests. Tapeworm you redo the saliva tests 2-3 months after so it does vary between types of tests.

But the problem with this is that FEC are not going to work for this because they will be negative until the worms emerge. I expect another blood test might be the only option to know if the encysted worms have gone. If they haven't gone and emerge then it is dangerous as there is only a 50% survival rate so they need to be gone. Tapeworm and other worms are far less dangerous.

I don't think he has had enough I expect he has been underdosed and had very little and the 400 I thought he got didn't happen.

I am thinking maybe panacur 5 day might be the way forward or possibly another dose of equest in 2 weeks.

 

[dottylottie]

lily is a crafty madam, and will stand there sweet as pie until i let go, then spit it on me. i just stick in the rest of the syringe and tell her to swallow it or else

check with westgates, but i can’t see treating him again being dangerous.

 

[criso]

the problem with this is that FEC are not going to work for this because they will be negative until the worms emerge. I

Which is why I suggested doing another test for encysted.

However while the interval for retesting is 10-14 days for worm counts and 2 to 3 months for tapeworm, I don't know what the recommended interval is for encysted so I would contact Westgate to find out how long you need to leave it before retesting.

 

[planete]

I am afraid I would simply worm him again with Equest in a couple of weeks but it will be interesting to see what Westgate say.

 

[Muddy unicorn]

Our youngster arrived with a huge number of redworm in his poo so we wormed him with equest pramox the next day. Two weeks later there were still worms in his poo - not as many but still very obvious. Our vet suggested doing a FEC which came back as no eggs detected. Westgate suggested doing another test in 6-8 weeks which the vet is happy with. However he’s still got a few worms coming out and I’m not sure if I should be worried or not? No one’s suggested a blood test yet .

 

[cauda equina]

My youngster had visible worms in his droppings when he arrived despite a clear FEC
Worming twice with Equest did nothing to lessen the visible worms but FECs remained clear
He then had Eqvalan which resulted in almost more worms than droppings - you could see them squirming, it was gross
Since then he has been fine. I'm guessing that his particular worms were resistant to Equest

 

[BMA2]

My youngster had visible worms in his droppings when he arrived despite a clear FEC
Worming twice with Equest did nothing to lessen the visible worms but FECs remained clear
He then had Eqvalan which resulted in almost more worms than droppings - you could see them squirming, it was gross
Since then he has been fine. I'm guessing that his particular worms were resistant to Equest

Interesting...do you know what worms came out

 

[meleeka]

I had worm counts from Westgate with different results, two ponies, 2 days apart (I thought I might have got the samples mixed up, so did it again),
so I’d take the results with a pinch of salt.
OP I’d just worm again in two weeks and discount that worming.

 

[Gamebird]

Re-testing unfortunately won't work. The test doesn't actually measure worms, it measures the immune system's response to the worms. So much like a strangles blood test it will remain high for a period of weeks, possibly months after infection, whether treated or not.
I think it sounds highly unlikely that your horse has had an adequate dose of Equest so I would treat again. The only caveat I have is that depending on how high his results were we sometimes pre-treat with steroids to prevent the inflammatory reaction in the gut wall caused by the death of the encysted worms. However assuming your vet took the bloods and has seen the results I would assume this has been considered. If you have any concerns I would give your vet a ring next week.

 

[cauda equina]

Interesting...do you know what worms came out

These, I assume they're Strongyles

 

[BMA2]

Bit worrying...shouldn't the 2 x equest have nailed those?

I must admit I'm rather terrified of encysted red worm...how reliable are the blood tests?

I must admit I'm not 100% convinced with the accuracy re FEC and I do wonder have "we" tipped into the bracket of not worming enough

 

[BMA2]

Plus I think alot of people think the FEC will tell the everything when it is only ever part of the picture

 

[criso]

Bit worrying...shouldn't the 2 x equest have nailed those?

I must admit I'm rather terrified of encysted red worm...how reliable are the blood tests?

I must admit I'm not 100% convinced with the accuracy re FEC and I do wonder have "we" tipped into the bracket of not worming enough

Or the first signs of resistance which is quicker reinfection after worming. Also why Westgate are recommending retesting after a positive test and worming including for saliva based tests like equisal, just have to wait longer for the antibodies to go back to normal.

 

[SO1]

Re-testing unfortunately won't work. The test doesn't actually measure worms, it measures the immune system's response to the worms. So much like a strangles blood test it will remain high for a period of weeks, possibly months after infection, whether treated or not.
I think it sounds highly unlikely that your horse has had an adequate dose of Equest so I would treat again. The only caveat I have is that depending on how high his results were we sometimes pre-treat with steroids to prevent the inflammatory reaction in the gut wall caused by the death of the encysted worms. However assuming your vet took the bloods and has seen the results I would assume this has been considered. If you have any concerns I would give your vet a ring next week.

Thank you. Vet didn't mention steroids. Bert is a native so I expect possibly trying to avoid steroids due to laminitis risk. Sounds like there is no way to know if encysted redworm gone or not because blood test could be showing high for weeks or even months.

Is panacur safer as perhaps with 5 days treatment they don't all die at once but I know there is some resistance to that so it might not work.

 

[meleeka]

Is panacur safer as perhaps with 5 days treatment they don't all die at once but I know there is some resistance to that so it might not work.

Why would you use that rather than worm in 2 weeks with Equest? I’ve used it when burden was suspected of being high, on an unknown Shetland, but given you know he had a bit of wormer, I don’t think you need to obsess about the colic risk of worms all coming out together, it’s just likely it didn’t do the proper job. Panacur gave my mare colic, so I don’t think it’s totally safe either. Shes ok even with Pramox, so I think it was the giving it on several days that upset her.

 

[gallopingby]

I would wait 2 - 3 weeks and then worm again with equest. It might be a good idea to check the syringe and set it a little higher than the stated dose. There’s a large margin for giving more but absolutely non for giving less. Unless you can guarantee that Bert will accept the syringe easily it’s better to do more. You could ‘practice’ giving him apple / carrot mash in a syinge if you find one with a wider nozzle alternatively ask one of the others on the yard to worm him for you. Sometimes it’s easier if you’re tall and a pony is tricky.

 

[SEL]

I'm pretty sure uou

Thank you. Vet didn't mention steroids. Bert is a native so I expect possibly trying to avoid steroids due to laminitis risk. Sounds like there is no way to know if encysted redworm gone or not because blood test could be showing high for weeks or even months.

Is panacur safer as perhaps with 5 days treatment they don't all die at once but I know there is some resistance to that so it might not work.

Equest will be fine. It's got a 3x safety margin at minimum. I wouldn't use panacur because you'll just increase the resistance risk. See what Westgate or your vet say but I've dosed a horse the following day that kindly spat it into my hair. He would have had same day if I'd had a spare tube. No idea how much he swallowed vs spat on me but he needed worming.

All mine get extra. The 650kg gets the whole tube and the ponies are done at 50kg extra. A friend uses the cattle drench with the same active ingredients (spot the farmer) & once gave double with no ill effects

 

[SO1]

I'm pretty sure uou

Equest will be fine. It's got a 3x safety margin at minimum. I wouldn't use panacur because you'll just increase the resistance risk. See what Westgate or your vet say but I've dosed a horse the following day that kindly spat it into my hair. He would have had same day if I'd had a spare tube. No idea how much he swallowed vs spat on me but he needed worming.

All mine get extra. The 650kg gets the whole tube and the ponies are done at 50kg extra. A friend uses the cattle drench with the same active ingredients (spot the farmer) & once gave double with no ill effects

Thank you. I normally have to do worming on a Saturday just in there is a problem with colic as then I am around to deal with it over the weekend.

My PT livery does cover dealing with vet and farrier and try and time visits multiple horses can be seen on the same day but as Bert is still new and can be nervous they do like me to be there if possible until they get to know him. He has really got to know the vet well now and I noticed when the vet came when I was there when he came into the stable he came over to say hallo to him.

As they do rehab as well as livery vet here quite a bit so we can do shared call outs.

 

[SO1]

For anyone wondering how much the blood test costs the lab fees were £34.56 which was quite reasonable. I had it taken whilst the vet was here to finish off wolf teeth removal and vet was doing EMS bloods as well.

 

[Sossigpoker]

You'd have to give them 10 times the dose or so to over-dose so I would give him another wormer now. Underdosing is far more dangerous especially as the blood test indicated he has a high burden.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Oh and BTW my 520kg or so cob gets the whole tube of Equest as I know some of it will get spat out.

 

[SO1]

Does anyone know how long it takes to start working in terms of colic risk? YO told me yesterday to bring him in early to give it to him on the basis if he did colic after having it. I would be around to deal with it as it is a weekend

 

[SEL]

Does anyone know how long it takes to start working in terms of colic risk? YO told me yesterday to bring him in early to give it to him on the basis if he did colic after having it. I would be around to deal with it as it is a weekend

I've only ever had one tummy ache with Equest Pramox (& I used to do a yard of 40+) and that was with a cob from a dealer who was probably riddled.

Wormed at about 4pm, drenched in sweat by following morning. Protexin quick fix got her sorted though she had liquid poo for a week.

 

[meleeka]

Does anyone know how long it takes to start working in terms of colic risk? YO told me yesterday to bring him in early to give it to him on the basis if he did colic after having it. I would be around to deal with it as it is a weekend

The only one I’ve known colicked after a few hours. so if you wormed in the morning, you would know by tea time I think.

Funnily enough, I never worm on a weekend, in case I need a vet.

 

[SO1]

The only one I’ve known colicked after a few hours. so if you wormed in the morning, you would know by tea time I think.

Funnily enough, I never worm on a weekend, in case I need a vet.

It is whole lot easier for me if I need to be on colic watch or stay the night for it to happen on a weekend when I don't have to worry about work.

 

[lamlyn2012]

There is a wait period between wormers.
I would speak to Westgate, they are very helpful.