End of the Emperor

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Xlthlx

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End of the Exmoor Emperor: sadness after giant red stag shot dead

Following the hunting ban there are a growing number of trophy hunters on Exmoor. There is a anger that they will be motivated merely by getting the best trophies rather than structured deer management. Taking out too many stags for their antlers... and leaving too many hinds will cause the genetic strength of the herd to decline. The best way to ensure structured deer management is through hunting with hounds. It is this that has ensured that Exmoor has one of the finest d=herds of red deer in the country. Historically whenever hunting with hounds has ceased the herd has declined.
 
The best way to ensure structured deer management is through hunting with hounds
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Not it's not. The best way to structre deer management is to ensure that a Stag can't be shot during the rutting season.
 
amymay said:
Not it's not. The best way to structre deer management is to ensure that a Stag can't be shot during the rutting season.
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How would that ensure that there is a good balance between stags and hounds that are shot?

And if stags are past their prime what would be wrong with shooting them during the rutting season?

Currently they have banned one form of wildlife management and do nothing to re regulate the other.
 
Yes, it even made the BBC news this morning - what a shame that such a stag was shot instead of being fairly hunted. Is it too much to hope that after the ban is lifted we have a more enlightened deer management system; for example , put the DSSH in overall control of culling deer by licence. All deer to be properly bayed by a full pack of hounds and humanely shot at close range. The same body(DSSH) to licence and control stalkers to take care of excessive deer numbers in specific areas, if and when required. Thus the DSSH (I am not a member) to be responsible for the conservation and control of the deer herd, which would otherwise be protected.
 
I am completely opposed to hunting deer with hounds.

Stalk them, shoot them.

And a deer past it's prime during rutting season will be past it's prime during a legitimate shooting season - so the point is entirely without merit.
 
Amymay, you seem a little confused about what happens during the rut. For any of several reasons a stag could have gathered hinds and yet still be past his prime. The season does vary somewhat from place to place, but my suggestion above would serve as a complete system, wouldn't it?
 
amymay said:
I am completely opposed to hunting deer with hounds.

Stalk them, shoot them.

And a deer past it's prime during rutting season will be past it's prime during a legitimate shooting season - so the point is entirely without merit.
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If a stalked deer is shot and only wounded and runs off into a neighbouring farm where there is no permission to hunt it what do you propose is done? Just leave it to die?
 
If a stalked deer is shot and only wounded and runs off into a neighbouring farm where there is no permission to hunt it what do you propose is done? Just leave it to die?
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Of course there is always the unfortunate chance of this - but they seem to manage pretty well in places like Scotland where deer stalking is the norm.

I simply can't condone hunting a large animal with hounds - when there is no need. A fox is entirely different.

But a deer is there for the taking.
 
oakash said:
Amymay, you seem a little confused about what happens during the rut. For any of several reasons a stag could have gathered hinds and yet still be past his prime. The season does vary somewhat from place to place, but my suggestion above would serve as a complete system, wouldn't it?
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I agree. Furthermore it is absurd to be 'completely' against hunting with hounds. There are many cases where deer have to be hunted with hounds because they could not be located with stalkers. Deer that have been involved in an RTA are a good example.

A centralised body with a legislative remit for deer management is a great idea. Possibly calling it the DSSH might be a bit provocative though!

The current system where management is left to unregulated stalkers is un satisfactory.
 
Xlthlx said:

End of the Exmoor Emperor: sadness after giant red stag shot dead

Following the hunting ban there are a growing number of trophy hunters on Exmoor. There is a anger that they will be motivated merely by getting the best trophies rather than structured deer management. Taking out too many stags for their antlers... and leaving too many hinds will cause the genetic strength of the herd to decline. The best way to ensure structured deer management is through hunting with hounds. It is this that has ensured that Exmoor has one of the finest d=herds of red deer in the country. Historically whenever hunting with hounds has ceased the herd has declined.
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I really don't know where to start, with this one! That those who are responsible for the ban, STILL have no idea of the damage which they've done, beggars belief. We only have to view the recent, and ongoing treatment meted out by the LACS to those beasts, contained within their "Sanctuaries"(?).

Deer Management is a highly complex subject. Previously a pack had their country, and it engulfed huge areas, and they hunted over land which was multi-owned. With the demise of hunting, those smaller land owners, or perhaps more often, tenants, are being lured by the potential value of their charges. It's a pointless exercise if one land owner acts in a responsible way, and his neighbour undoes his good work, by killing the young and improving beast.

I'm not familiar with the deer of the West Country, but I am with those here in East Anglia, and those on the Hill, in Scotland. In Scotland generally, Land Owners take a responsible approach, and tend to act as one. Here in East Anglia, Gold Medal heads are not hard to find, but the asking fee, can be as much as £10k. That puts them out of the reach of most, and the damage done is minimal. In the West Country, where in my view, there are probably some of the most beautiful heads, as "medal" heads will be very few and far between, they run the risk of slaughter.

If there is a surfeit of really good heads, then the odd old beast, who's going back could be considered, but in the case of the animal which you've illustrated, he certainly wasn't old, and may well have been improving. Who ever was responsible should be ashamed of themselves. They probably aren't, because they know no better.

The lure of money will be too great for many, and then when the young and improving stags are in decline, everyone will wonder why, wont they?

Alec.
 
amymay said:
Of course there is always the unfortunate chance of this - but they seem to manage pretty well in places like Scotland where deer stalking is the norm.
.
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That's because deer in Scotland are stalked on massive estates that employ professional stalkers that manage them across a wide area.

The situation in the West Country is completely different. The average holding is 100 or so acres not thousands. The idea of managing a deer population in the context of a smallholding is a nonsense.
 
It is not absurb to be against hunting with hounds at all. I find it very distasteful.

For proper deer management - whoever has that responsibility - as long as it isn't trigger-happy farmers, most of whom can't hit a barn door at 30ft, then far rather a proper markman (i.e. gamekeeper, professsional stalker), then that is the most humane way of going on. As said, in Scotland they don't have the problem of injured deer as the task in hand is done properly, so there is no reason why it can't be done in a similar fashion in the West Country.

It is patronising to say that some forum members don't understand the rutting season. The point being made, that if a stag is past his prime, then what difference does it make what time of year it is; a stag with a broken leg would be despatched, not left until the end of the rut.

And before others suggest that I am a townie who hasn't a clue of the ways of the country, I am born and bred of good old English country stock, so I do know what I am talking about and how to best manage the herd on our land.
 
I think it is absurd to be against ALL hunting with hounds. I can perfectly understand why people oppose some.

A lot of the hunting that the staghounds do is in response to casualty call outs. It's virtually impossible to locate a wounded deer without the use of hounds so I can't see why anybody would be against that.
 
"As said, in Scotland they don't have the problem of injured deer as the task in hand is done properly, so there is no reason why it can't be done in a similar fashion in the West Country."

Do you think that the massively different pattern of landownership in the West Country has no impact on deer management viability there?

Toby773 said:
And before others suggest that I am a townie who hasn't a clue of the ways of the country, I am born and bred of good old English country stock, so I do know what I am talking about and how to best manage the herd on our land.
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THE herd on your land? How much land do you have? Red deer herds generally exist over a lot of holdings not just one unless it is a massive estate.
 
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I have some genuine questions regarding this.
Would the person who shot the Emporer be frowned upon within the shooting community?
The way it is being reported is that this would be the case but I wanted to get a clearer picture without the bias of the press.
 
It's virtually impossible to locate a wounded deer without the use of hounds so I can't see why anybody would be against that.
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In which case the use of a hounds (but surely not a whole pack) would be entirely justified.
 
amymay said:
In which case the use of a hounds (but surely not a whole pack) would be entirely justified.
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We there you go then. As I said it is absurd to oppose all hunting with hounds.

Generally the more hounds that are used the quicker the deer can be found and shot.
 
amymay said:
But I don't - that's an assumption you have made.

However, locating a wounded deer is not hunting, surely?
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I assumed you said you were opposed to hunting deer with hounds.

Yes it is hunting as defined by the Hunting act but fortunately exempt in some circumstances.

Even LACS accept that hunting deer with hounds is not always cruel.
 
I assumed you said you were opposed to hunting deer with hounds.
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No - I stated that I was opposed to hunting deer with hounds. You assumed I was opposed to all hunting with hounds. I am not. And certainly have enjoyed many hours in the field fox hunting.

You also have assumed that I know nothing about the rutting season. As another poster has said - that is patronising.

And whilst the search and dispatch of a wounded deer may be classed as hunting - clearly it is not. It is a rescue and dispatch exercise - and you don't need a full pack for that. Four good hounds will locate that deer and enable it to be dispatch in very quick order.
 
What a sneaky way to kill a great stag,at rutting time his last thought would be on self protection,in fact he would have been flaunting his magnificance to one and all.What miserable cowards!
 
wipeout said:
I have some genuine questions regarding this.
Would the person who shot the Emporer be frowned upon within the shooting community?
The way it is being reported is that this would be the case but I wanted to get a clearer picture without the bias of the press.
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Within the general shooting community, probably not, because many would take no real interest in deer. By those who have an abiding interest, then yes, most certainly. "Frowned upon" is something of an understatement!

The Red Deer of the West Country have reached their status because of hunting. Those who would now shoot them, and those who think that there should be no management, will be equally responsible for the decline.

Red deer, regardless of their location, tend to be nomadic, and a fragmented "management" policy, over very small parcels of land, will have dire repercussions.

Regulations? Really? Deer can be shot at any time of year, under the claim that they are damaging crops. Does anyone think that regulation will work? I don't.

Alec.

Ets, all male deer are stalked and shot during their respective ruts. It's the correct way of doing things. It makes selection far more accurate. a.
 
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amymay said:
No - I stated that I was opposed to hunting deer with hounds. You assumed I was opposed to all hunting with hounds. I am not. And certainly have enjoyed many hours in the field fox hunting.

You also have assumed that I know nothing about the rutting season. As another poster has said - that is patronising.

And whilst the search and dispatch of a wounded deer may be classed as hunting - clearly it is not. It is a rescue and dispatch exercise - and you don't need a full pack for that. Four good hounds will locate that deer and enable it to be dispatch in very quick order.
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With the greatest respect but you are assuming that i assumed you were against all hunting and not just hunting deer. I assumed no such thing. My assumption was that you were against all hunting of deer with hounds and that was based on the fact that you stated you were. I was aware that you were not against fox hunting as you had also made that clear.

ps and I did not say or assume you knew nothing about the rutting season. Please don't put words and assumptions on me which I have not said or made.
 
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DSSH 'controversial'?

Yes, I suppose it would be to some people with loud voices, plenty of money and lightweight 'celebrity' support, but little knowledge. However, I can think of no other body which would effectively be able to persuade small landowners on Exmoor to allow access for moving on and culling deer.
 
Xlthlx said:
I agree. Furthermore it is absurd to be 'completely' against hunting with hounds. There are many cases where deer have to be hunted with hounds because they could not be located with stalkers. Deer that have been involved in an RTA are a good example.

A centralised body with a legislative remit for deer management is a great idea. Possibly calling it the DSSH might be a bit provocative though!

The current system where management is left to unregulated stalkers is un satisfactory.
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In answer to yours above!
 
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