Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Does anyone have any experience of it? Just interested...
S
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Endorphin 'Tap'?
- Thread starter Shilasdair
- Start date
arwenplusone
Well-Known Member
If you mean the pulling of the head round to the shoulder/stirrup then yes I have & I use this a lot with my mare.
I have never used it on the ground but I was at a grading recently and a young horse got distressed & tried to jump out of his stable - he was stuck & panicking. Dutch chap used what I can only iassume was the endorphin tap & the horse calmed immediately and was able to be freed.
I have never used it on the ground but I was at a grading recently and a young horse got distressed & tried to jump out of his stable - he was stuck & panicking. Dutch chap used what I can only iassume was the endorphin tap & the horse calmed immediately and was able to be freed.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Where did you learn it?
And how do you believe it works?
S
And how do you believe it works?
S
_April_
Well-Known Member
I have never heard of it?
Will do some googling
Will do some googling
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Is this related to NLP? Which is used in people to allow them to deal with trauma, this is a regular tapping on certain points, I presume that this is a method of releasing endorphines, don't know much about it, other than that it exists and has a reasonable success rate.
arwenplusone
Well-Known Member
My instructor taught me
I am not truly sure how it works (and I am not sure my instructor is either) but have a few theories, the most basic one being the turning of the head constricting arteries & releasing endorphins. The response is not dissimilar to that of a twitch; sleepy eye, immobilty etc. However my mare has overcome it - suggesting that adrenaline can throw the response over (as with any sedative).
I should say I have never brought a horse to his knees in this method - I have only ever used for my own safety.
I am not truly sure how it works (and I am not sure my instructor is either) but have a few theories, the most basic one being the turning of the head constricting arteries & releasing endorphins. The response is not dissimilar to that of a twitch; sleepy eye, immobilty etc. However my mare has overcome it - suggesting that adrenaline can throw the response over (as with any sedative).
I should say I have never brought a horse to his knees in this method - I have only ever used for my own safety.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
I have never heard of it?
Will do some googling
[/ QUOTE ]
You are no use to me then.
Be gone!
S
I have never heard of it?
Will do some googling
[/ QUOTE ]
You are no use to me then.
Be gone!
S
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
My instructor taught me
I am not truly sure how it works (and I am not sure my instructor is either) but have a few theories, the most basic one being the turning of the head constricting arteries & releasing endorphins. The response is not dissimilar to that of a twitch; sleepy eye, immobilty etc. However my mare has overcome it - suggesting that adrenaline can throw the response over (as with any sedative).
I should say I have never brought a horse to his knees in this method - I have only ever used for my own safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
'Half Tap' I think that is.
I believed it was due to reduced blood pressure?
Did it work?
S
My instructor taught me
I am not truly sure how it works (and I am not sure my instructor is either) but have a few theories, the most basic one being the turning of the head constricting arteries & releasing endorphins. The response is not dissimilar to that of a twitch; sleepy eye, immobilty etc. However my mare has overcome it - suggesting that adrenaline can throw the response over (as with any sedative).
I should say I have never brought a horse to his knees in this method - I have only ever used for my own safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
'Half Tap' I think that is.
I believed it was due to reduced blood pressure?
Did it work?
S
arwenplusone
Well-Known Member
Ah, ok - that could also be a theory. It works, yes. Very well. I'll PM you as to how I use it as I'd rather not describe the detail on here.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, ok - that could also be a theory. It works, yes. Very well. I'll PM you as to how I use it as I'd rather not describe the detail on here.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate it. I haven't posted links/vids for the same reason
S
Ah, ok - that could also be a theory. It works, yes. Very well. I'll PM you as to how I use it as I'd rather not describe the detail on here.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate it. I haven't posted links/vids for the same reason
S
mle22
Well-Known Member
I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.
hadfos
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, ok - that could also be a theory. It works, yes. Very well. I'll PM you as to how I use it as I'd rather not describe the detail on here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Am very interested in this method
,will understand if you rather not pm,as you dont know me very well
,just i deal with alot of horses and different ways and methods are always of interest,as you well know diff things work with different horses...always looking to expand my knowledge,lol
Ah, ok - that could also be a theory. It works, yes. Very well. I'll PM you as to how I use it as I'd rather not describe the detail on here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Am very interested in this method
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Translated as 'I have no idea'
S
I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Translated as 'I have no idea'
S
mle22
Well-Known Member
Exactly! Plus some sub text!
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! Plus some sub text!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sub = under = bridge?
S
Exactly! Plus some sub text!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sub = under = bridge?
S
mle22
Well-Known Member
No no. Sub as in undercover!
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
No no. Sub as in undercover!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, you are in bed?
S
No no. Sub as in undercover!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, you are in bed?
S
_April_
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have never heard of it?
Will do some googling
[/ QUOTE ]
You are no use to me then.
Be gone!
S
[/ QUOTE ]
PMSL I only just read this and your PM!!
Nothing more likely to make me spam all over a thread than a banishment
Luckily for you though I have been away (battling youtube to try and get some videos uploaded... I'm not winning!)
[ QUOTE ]
I have never heard of it?
Will do some googling
[/ QUOTE ]
You are no use to me then.
Be gone!
S
[/ QUOTE ]
PMSL I only just read this and your PM!!
Nothing more likely to make me spam all over a thread than a banishment
Luckily for you though I have been away (battling youtube to try and get some videos uploaded... I'm not winning!)
moodiestmare
Well-Known Member
I thought it worked by consticting the airway (?). Then the drop in oxygen causes the extreme relaxing.
mle22
Well-Known Member
God you're scarily good. Who do you work for?
Tharg
Well-Known Member
Can anyone PM me info on it?
just curious to see if it is similar to the Vulcan Death Pinch.
just curious to see if it is similar to the Vulcan Death Pinch.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone PM me info on it?
just curious to see if it is similar to the Vulcan Death Pinch.
[/ QUOTE ]
*insert geek smilie* Is it not the Vulcan Nerve Pinch?
Are you a Vulcan???? Are your ears pointy?
Can anyone PM me info on it?
just curious to see if it is similar to the Vulcan Death Pinch.
[/ QUOTE ]
*insert geek smilie* Is it not the Vulcan Nerve Pinch?
Are you a Vulcan???? Are your ears pointy?
Jazzelle29
Well-Known Member
If you go onto YouTube and search for "Endospink" you will find all sorts of information about the "Tap" method. It certainly isn't for the novice rider/handler.
http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink?ob=1
http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink?ob=1
Box_Of_Frogs
Well-Known Member
I always thought a drop in oxygen would cause panic or if dropped further, death? I suppose that could be called extreme relaxing.
xnaughtybutnicex
Well-Known Member
Isn't it the same sort of thing as twisting the skin on the horses neck and twitching?
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
It certainly isn't for the novice rider/handler.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, have already read/watched all of that; would be VERY dangerous in the wrong, inexperienced hands though.
S
It certainly isn't for the novice rider/handler.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, have already read/watched all of that; would be VERY dangerous in the wrong, inexperienced hands though.
S
arwenplusone
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone PM me info on it?
just curious to see if it is similar to the Vulcan Death Pinch.
[/ QUOTE ]
*insert geek smilie* Is it not the Vulcan Nerve Pinch?
Are you a Vulcan???? Are your ears pointy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah - OK - Tharg: Didn't realise you were taking the P. Well I have PM'd you in good faith anyway - feel free to ignore it.
[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone PM me info on it?
just curious to see if it is similar to the Vulcan Death Pinch.
[/ QUOTE ]
*insert geek smilie* Is it not the Vulcan Nerve Pinch?
Are you a Vulcan???? Are your ears pointy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah - OK - Tharg: Didn't realise you were taking the P. Well I have PM'd you in good faith anyway - feel free to ignore it.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Oh the Vulcan Nerve Pinch does exist albeit not quite as the Star Trek writers created it (honestly, I'm not a nutjob). It has it's origin in martial arts involves applying pressure to the braquial plexus. Or something. So whilst I was kidding, I wasn't really.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
This guy confuses me a bit (leaving out why anyone would want to call themselves "endospink" . . ) - does he claim to have actually discovered/invented something new? Or is he just calling an old practice by a new, nicer sounding name. Is TAP an acronym for something? (Yes, I should just buy his flash drive or whatever but I don't care THAT much.
)
It's certainly not new - fairly standard "horse whisperer" (the old kind - John Rarey et al - not the new PC kind). I've seen people do it and done variations on it myself in situations where the option was likely someone getting hurt. Like so many things in horses (Parelli anyone?
) lots of good horsemen, especially ones with experience dealing with the more "difficult" end of the equine spectrum, use elements/degrees of this sort of thing, just not usually to the extreme this fellow seems to think is "normal." Although, I've certainly seen people from the track who do similar almost as a matter of course.
It is true there is not a lot of easily accessible literature on stuff like this. The old horse whisperers guarded their secrets carefully. (I have to admire this fellow's business sense - getting people to pay for his "tip".) and it's not much in fashion these days. If people did write more about it they'd likely be ostracised in most circles. But there are references to "lying a horse down" in some of the older western books and there was a huge debate about it all when The Horse Whisperer came out.
As to what, exactly is happening, someone will have to do a study. BUT, done "properly" (depending on whether or not you think it's proper in the first place, the horse does have a "twitch like" response - slowed breathing and slow, strong pulse rate, "sleepy" expression, sweating etc. Again, whether this is "good" or not depends as much on opinion as fact. Depends on what you're trying to achieve. Is situations where sedation or a fight are the other options it seems at least a debatable option.
Personally, I think some of the endorphin-based controls are very beneficial in certain circumstances. Sometime safety has to take priority over theory and things have to get done in as controlled a manner as possible. I would far rather control a horse manually than with drugs (which might not even be an option in say, a ridden situation) and it has been MY PERSONAL experience that a particular kind of horse responds well to being "made" (zipping up flame suit) to stand still long enough to realise whatever's being done is not a crisis, nothing to be afraid of, even, perhaps, enjoyable. I have found methods is this school superior to say, using a bridle/chiffney for control, particularly when safety is an issue. I've also found such horses DO retain the improvement and actually feel differently about the situation after. Again MY experience and I expect other people to have different ones. However, I don't think starting horses falls into this category for various complicated reasons.
I have no idea whether or not it's similar to NLP "tapping" because I don't know enough about that.
I also do say, again, that I think this fellow does not take it seriously enough. I don't think it is without risk at all. I don't think it's safe to assume there is now future/big picture consequence and I don't think it's a substitute for proper teaching and preparation. There are risks to using similar methods of restraint and using them humanely and properly comes down a lot to feel, which cannot be taught on a flash drive. It's just a tool. I also think it's not a tool to be taken - or given - likely. All those people TAPing away on forums scare me a bit. (But then that's true of anyone doing potentially dangerous things they don't really understand.)
All that said, somewhat like Parelli, I can't warm to this guy on a personal/professional level so perhaps that clouds my judgement.
Well, I've probably scuppered myself on this forum.
I'll return later to my PM box full of message detailing what an evil, opportunistic and cruel trainer I am.
It's certainly not new - fairly standard "horse whisperer" (the old kind - John Rarey et al - not the new PC kind). I've seen people do it and done variations on it myself in situations where the option was likely someone getting hurt. Like so many things in horses (Parelli anyone?
It is true there is not a lot of easily accessible literature on stuff like this. The old horse whisperers guarded their secrets carefully. (I have to admire this fellow's business sense - getting people to pay for his "tip".) and it's not much in fashion these days. If people did write more about it they'd likely be ostracised in most circles. But there are references to "lying a horse down" in some of the older western books and there was a huge debate about it all when The Horse Whisperer came out.
As to what, exactly is happening, someone will have to do a study. BUT, done "properly" (depending on whether or not you think it's proper in the first place, the horse does have a "twitch like" response - slowed breathing and slow, strong pulse rate, "sleepy" expression, sweating etc. Again, whether this is "good" or not depends as much on opinion as fact. Depends on what you're trying to achieve. Is situations where sedation or a fight are the other options it seems at least a debatable option.
Personally, I think some of the endorphin-based controls are very beneficial in certain circumstances. Sometime safety has to take priority over theory and things have to get done in as controlled a manner as possible. I would far rather control a horse manually than with drugs (which might not even be an option in say, a ridden situation) and it has been MY PERSONAL experience that a particular kind of horse responds well to being "made" (zipping up flame suit) to stand still long enough to realise whatever's being done is not a crisis, nothing to be afraid of, even, perhaps, enjoyable. I have found methods is this school superior to say, using a bridle/chiffney for control, particularly when safety is an issue. I've also found such horses DO retain the improvement and actually feel differently about the situation after. Again MY experience and I expect other people to have different ones. However, I don't think starting horses falls into this category for various complicated reasons.
I have no idea whether or not it's similar to NLP "tapping" because I don't know enough about that.
I also do say, again, that I think this fellow does not take it seriously enough. I don't think it is without risk at all. I don't think it's safe to assume there is now future/big picture consequence and I don't think it's a substitute for proper teaching and preparation. There are risks to using similar methods of restraint and using them humanely and properly comes down a lot to feel, which cannot be taught on a flash drive. It's just a tool. I also think it's not a tool to be taken - or given - likely. All those people TAPing away on forums scare me a bit. (But then that's true of anyone doing potentially dangerous things they don't really understand.)
All that said, somewhat like Parelli, I can't warm to this guy on a personal/professional level so perhaps that clouds my judgement.
Well, I've probably scuppered myself on this forum.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
This guy confuses me a bit (leaving out why anyone would want to call themselves "endospink" . . ) - does he claim to have actually discovered/invented something new? Or is he just calling an old practice by a new, nicer sounding name. Is TAP an acronym for something?
[/ QUOTE ]
Paul has a kinky sense of humour (and great taste in music!) He is also an incredible horseman. You need to understand the environment he is working in - and the horses he is working with. In Japan, anything that gives too much trouble or takes too long to get to the track is eaten!!! Paul gets a LOT of horses that have been branded dangerous and are a week or less from being on a dinner plate.
If you want a 'flavour' of his work, this is one of his best 'mixes' - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X5FcW21GGD8
This guy confuses me a bit (leaving out why anyone would want to call themselves "endospink" . . ) - does he claim to have actually discovered/invented something new? Or is he just calling an old practice by a new, nicer sounding name. Is TAP an acronym for something?
[/ QUOTE ]
Paul has a kinky sense of humour (and great taste in music!) He is also an incredible horseman. You need to understand the environment he is working in - and the horses he is working with. In Japan, anything that gives too much trouble or takes too long to get to the track is eaten!!! Paul gets a LOT of horses that have been branded dangerous and are a week or less from being on a dinner plate.
If you want a 'flavour' of his work, this is one of his best 'mixes' - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X5FcW21GGD8