Endurance , whats going on?

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FairyLights

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drugs seized re h&h report,and the EGB forum is awash with comment about international rides.The admin of the facebook site is saying they will delete any derogatory comments. whatever happened to free speach?
 
There has been considerable concern in international Endurance - expressed by a number of countries about the injuries incurred and apparent abuse of endurance horses at the top level and associated with particular countries. This concern has been widely voiced. Endurance horses in some races have suffered catastrophic fractures and abuses of the rules have been witnessed but ignored - probably due to the status of some of the top riders and trainers who have supported Endurance on a very significant scale. Many European riders do not like the direction Endurance is travelling in - with an increasing emphasis on very fast, flat tracks which encourage very fast riding. This trend appears to have had a very negative cost to the horses - the speed results in many and serious injuries and consequences. A number of International Endurance horses have been found to be in contravention of doping regs and there are also rumours of serious incidents of cheating and horse abuse. It is certainly not pretty. EGB - the principle body for Endurance in GB has been somewhat divided in its members on account of the very serious concerns about International Endurance; some members wish to break ties with the international scene, whilst others feel the situation is resolvable. The team management of our Endurance riders has been criticised and the results of the GB team of late have not been encouraging - it seems that GB cannot compete, for whatever reason or reasons with the 'leading nations'. Some may argue that that is because of different approaches to acceptable horse management and the use of substances which are either not legal or simply not known about. There are certainly some very dark practices in Endurance at the moment. The drugs seizure is simply a symptom of the mess that Endurance is in. The vast majority of GB riders - whether ambitious to compete at International level or not are horrified that the sport has become so tarnished. However, there is no consensus in EGB as to the way forward for the sport. On one level it would seem that Endurance has had a much needed injection of glamour and prestige by the financing and involvement of particular nations, on the other level, for most European riders the cost in terms of horse welfare and sportsmanship has been too high. Many people involved in Endurance are sickened by what they hear of what goes on, in certain places in order to achieve success. It looks as if the sport has hit rock bottom so the only way is up. However, it will be well nigh impossible for Endurance as we know it to survive if the truth is to come out; there are many vested interests and much to lose. We do have, however, many many talented horse and rider combinations at International level though it is crucial to ask why these combinations do not WANT to be involved in the current teams with the current management.
 
Thank you! I find it all very disheartening to be honest. Endurance used to be a small scale amateur sport that valued horse welfare and integrity above all else. It was all about the partnerships developed over miles of tough and often lonely going and it was not a glamorous or high profile sport in this country. It certainly needed a bit of a facelift to encourage new blood and the participation of wealthy and passionate nations has indeed added a bit of glamour and raised the profile of the sport here. However, that has also been a game-changer and it would seem certainly not for the good. Endurance should be an equestrian sport to be so proud of in this country but I'm not sure it is at the moment. Other European nations have been much more determined to make changes for the better, it would seem, than the current egb management is. That is a great shame I think.
 
Um (wading in with both feet here, so therefore with a degree of trepidation......) - would it be correct to assume that the "financing and involvement of particular nations" might be referring to certain nations situated within the Middle Eastern region, who have an absolutely obscene amount of money they don't know what to do with?

Shades of the recent horseracing scandal mebbe???? i.e. if you try it in one place and get caught with your pants down; then merely try another "equestrian" sport???

Please note, am not mentioning any particular countries, so all just supposition.
 
I used to do endurance, many years ago now, it was a lovely sport. I have always disliked the term "endurance" and prefer "long-distance riding". "Endurance" seems to imply that there must be some suffering involved, to my mind. Bring back the days of the old EHPS when things were much much better than they are now.
Once egos and money become involved decency goes out of the window- and that applies to other sports too.
 
Such a shame the sport is in such disrepute,and all linked to the antics of certain wealthy countries who seem to have too much influence with the FEI.The latter appear to have sold their soles for money,rather than ethics and are probably worried about tackling the Saudis who throw so much money at equestrian sport.
 
At the lower levels I think endurance is as clean, as welcoming to all and as positive a horse activity as its possible to be.

At the upper levels, the same cannot be said.

Having said that even at the low levels I am surprised these days by riders complaining that the going on a ride was 'too stony' or 'too hilly' .....:-(((( ummmm yup, the clue is in the sports title :-)
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
At the lower levels I think endurance is as clean, as welcoming to all and as positive a horse activity as its possible to be.

At the upper levels, the same cannot be said.

Having said that even at the low levels I am surprised these days by riders complaining that the going on a ride was 'too stony' or 'too hilly' .....:-(((( ummmm yup, the clue is in the sports title :-)
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Yes - though I think that is because riders are increasingly trying to achieve faster speeds so that they can be competitive; the hilly, stony, very varied rides are more challenging in terms of speed though they do represent the more traditional version of endurance where to complete a ride meant something in itself. It's such a shame that egb hasn't yet found a way to grade rides in such a way that Britain's natural terrain can provide a competitive playing field. A lot of endurance riders seem sad that the sport is losing the challenge of terrain and decision making in favour of speed and substance knowledge.
 
Re Hilly rides. I made a suggestion for this season to trial some achievement awards for people and horses who completed the tougher rides at whatever level. It has been successfully trialled in two local groups and I am just starting to get the ride cards sent back to me so that I can get the awards sorted out :) Hopefully it will get taken on nationally as we do need something to encourage people to head for the hills ;)

Re The other stuff. EGB is a comparatively very small organisation, run by volunteers and I don't know what the answer is, as the problem is much much much bigger than EGB and has been going on for years. It breaks my heart that such a friendly, supportive sport has such a corrupt element. Personally I think that the corrupt side of things needs to completely implode before we can move on, and I would suspect that there are worse revelations to come. On the plus side, we do have some really good, inspirational top level riders and horses who have got where they have got without taking shortcuts or cheating, and our young riders are doing particularly well, so the future is not all bleak. Hopefully...
 
Okay, let's look at the recent european championships, I'll break the scilence. Until now, GB has held its head up as a clean national organisation, there are regular dope tests at rides, no failures, we are clean. However, it seems the committe has been trying to emulate certain nations in order to raise GB up the international rankings. In reality we are still a nation of amateurs (very professional riders, but they don't earn a living at riding). Generally most competitors only own 1-3 horses, we don't have huge stables run by professional trainers staffed by grooms to do all the work. We own, produce & love our animals. We muck out every day, tend to them & know them intimately. There are nations who like to win, & although the staff may not be told to cheat, there is huge pressure on them to produce a horse able to win over fast flat tracks (why certain nations will never enter GB rides - track too testing, especially rides like GHS, Red Dragon). There is no out of competition drug testing, so horses can be trained on steroids, as long as they are clear by the competition. These horses would have been able to cope with more extreme training, so a truly clean horse will never be able to compete with them. Nations from a certain area of the globe win everything (or people that work for said nations excel as well), they also pour a huge amount of money into the international scene & FEI. That snactions aren't taken to clean the sport up, draw your own conclusions. Horses subjected to exterme training regiemes, to get them fit enough to cope with the rediculous speeds are the ones prone to fractures. Owners response is pull another horse out the stable. Again, it only affects certain nations, I would not be able to name a GB horse who has suffered a catastrophic stress fracture. Draw your own conclusions.

At Most, GB had to hold its head in shame, due to a rider based in a UAE yard, riding a UAE horse. For some reason (tip off paid by someone to shame GB, a nation daring to question certain nations integrity maybe? Gut-feeling of officials?), this rider was subjected to 2 weight checks during the race (very unusual). At the second one, where her crew were not allowed contact with her whilst she untacked at the vet gate, she weighed in 7kg under weight, despite starting 2 kg over weight. GB has been issued a yellow card internationally for cheating. Was this done on purpose to cheat? Was there bribery to take the rap to shame GB? Who knows, but there are many questions that wont get answered because they involve nation from a certain area. The horse was not going to come anywhere, it was in 10th place, showing signs of fatigue (witnessed by EGB member), & its presentation times to vet had gone from fast to 8 mins. Before the race many EGB members questioned the selection of a UAE horse for the GB team (due to fears it may fail a drug test coming from a certain area of the globe - were we selling our soul to try & get a medal?). Unblievably, we had other fantastic combination to go, who was denied the chance because she wanted to fly her horse in & not take the transport organised by EGB - unbelievable.

Then there is the winning rider. At the start of the last circuit he was 1 min ahead, by the end of this short circuit he was so far ahead at his speed it equated to 5.7km! Even though his average speeds were very close to the second place horse, he had done the final circuit so much quicker....point 1, there were no stewards on the final loop of the course to check the rider had done the correct route (odd, usually stewards on every loop, smacks of money coming in here again). Second, there was a place were a minor deviation of route would result in doing 5.7km less in total. Draw your own conclusions, I am implying nothing.

Nothing smells more rotten than money. Support EGB, we are great people who love our animals, we are not part of this disgusting culture. Nothing will be investigated or penalised, because they are so afraid of funding withdrawl, especially from british racing. We should stop trying to compete with cheats & focus on what we are, clean, honest who love our horses. Medals mean nothing at the moment, the horses are being scarificed for a bit of tin on a ribbon.
 
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the Most thing stinks. I am so glad that I dont do endurance any more, I would be throughly ASHAMED to be connected to an organisation proved to have been cheating re the incident at Most, the whole EBG committee should do the honourable thing and RESIGN IN SHAME.
Bring back the old days when people aspired to complete the Golden Horseshoe and the Red Dragon. Note I said complete the ride, the rider and their horse in partnership,not trying to beat someone else.
 
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No evidence anyone in EGB connected to the weight problem, said rider & her crew would not allow any EGB officials (including the team vet when they wanted to see if horse was fit/sound to continue) near the horse. The questionable ethics & morals involves someone based broad working for middle eastern endurance stable, a foreign crew & horse from the big middle eastern endurance stable.

Funny thing is when this horse was announced as part of GB team (also declared as UAE team horse), members wanted rigorous checks in training & before competition to see if it was drug free, as they didn't trust the cleanliness of any horse in an endurance stable run by countries from a certain part of the globe. Members of EGB didn't want the stain of cheating landing on them if the horse failed a drug test in competition. We are in the sport & we don't trust certain nations. It isn't dissimillar to Lance Armstrong who used his name & bullying tactics to scilence others for years. In the end the truth will out, money or not.
 
The horse and rider were part of the British team. EGB therefore responsable. The horse should never have been part of GB team, but once it and its rider were it came under our durestriction. Are the EGB committee members so spineless that they just let this person dictate terms to them? Sounds so.
 
Apparently. Given how heavy handed the committes & team people are about enforcing their opinions & way of doing things on people even to the detriment of the horses (caused one young 3* horse to miss much of last season through their insistance of shoeing him a particular way, against the advice of persons farrier who had got him to 3* level). Their attitude to us was do it our way or your out, no debate. I find it unbelievable that they were denied access & accepted it. Also seems to be a lot of double standards around depending on who you are (something we experienced at a development squad weekend & selection process).
 
I don't do endurance so comment as an outsider but there never has been a sport that's not ruined by money , endurance is just the latest on the a long list.
 
Nationally we are good. There is no indication of drug abuse in the UK. The problem is when you get to the international stage, & the failure of the FEI to grow a pair of balls, or that they are in the grip of some wealthy nations who are threatening to chop them off........

If we had not used a UAE based horse/rider combination we would not have a yellow card for cheating........
 
Goldenstar said:
I don't do endurance so comment as an outsider but there never has been a sport that's not ruined by money , endurance is just the latest on the a long list.
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Couldn't agree more. Where money is part of the winnings, people will do just about anything to get their hands on it. Look at football - full of diving, cheating, downright lying, intimidation of match officials. Its disgusting. Money just ruins everything.
 
As someone who has just finished their first season as a RC endurance rider, this is very sad to hear. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but just with what i have seen about the money and riders from the Middle East, it seems like those nations will do anything to win. Very sad for the horses but not much different from horse racing or polo at the top levels I guess.

I hope it doesn't put off people from joining and enjoying endurance at the lower levels. We have really had a great time this year and met lots of 'proper' endurance riders who have been very supportive and helpful to me and my cob. On a personal level I won't ever have to worry about the international events as I don't think they have hairy cobs at those events:)
 
I used to compete Endurance. It lost it's way the minute that prizes with any financial value were introduced. The heart of the sport as and still should be the satisfaction in producing a horse so well, without artifical aid, that it can complete a ride and finish in excellent condition.

Shame on the human race for putting horses' welfare below financial gain. Shame on the EGB committee for allowing this to happen.
 
Re The national committee. It is one hell of a job, it takes over your life, and they are all volunteers. Some people may be better suited than others but I don't envy any of them one iota. But much as everyone has an opinion on how well the committee handle things, very few people put themselves forwards to do it - last year there were enough spaces on committee for all but one of the nominees. Some years there hasn't even needed to be a vote as the number of nominations is so low. And when there is a vote, turnout is low. What that means is that if there is someone who is maybe not well suited to serve on the national committee, they will pretty much be a shoe in as there will be no alternative.

So the motto of the story is, if you think you can do better, put yourself forwards for committee. You've got till the 27th to get your names in. Alternatively, put forwards a proposal for a rules change if you have any ideas about how the society could change - again, a deadline of the 27th applies. And then, when the voting papers come out, for heavens sake VOTE!
 
EstherYoung - quite agree - serving on a committee can be onerous. But that is a separate issue to letting the sport deteriorate. It doesn't matter whether the committee is large or small, all it takes is accord and it would appear that there must have been agreement that horse welfare takes second place? Or why the rule changes and the introduction of rewards beyond a rosette and satisfaction in a job well done for winning?
 
There was a rule change to allow cash prizes a good few years back, and I know I was concerned about it at the time, but in reality you're not going to get rich doing an EGB ride, Lucy ;) There have always been prizes in kind from sponsors (indeed I have sponsored prizes myself), but although the rules may permit it, there are no big cash prizes particularly below FEI level. The only rides which handed out anything more than basically diesel money in this country are the arab marathon (not an EGB ride) and the Eustons (also not EGB rides - they are/were run by Janah for the FEI).

Nb I won some cash when H and me won the EHPS Lions Tail in 2000, so prizes of money are not new.

Ps I'll be honest with you - a good few years back I went to crew with the Young Riders to Wicklow. The sheer amount of rule breaking and compromises of horse welfare from 'certain parties' we saw was staggering, and I very nearly walked away from endurance then and there. We reported it all, only to be ignored. But I realised I was not alone in my concerns, and that the main bulk of the sport in this country is still the friendly, laid back, welfare friendly sport that it always has been. I really don't know what the answer is, but in some way I am pleased at these latest developments as it means that finally a lot of the things that have been brushed under the carpet for many many years may be uncovered and the chickens may come home to roost. I just hope that my sport, the sport that rewards the long term relationship between horse and rider, the sport that has allowed me to achieve more with my horses than I ever thought possible, the sport that I dream about, isn't too damaged in the process.
 
A big problem with being on the committee is that it is based in Stoneleigh. I live on the Devon Cornwall border, work more than full time & keep the horses. There is no way on this planet I would have the time or money to ever consider trying to get a place on any board. In my posts I have tried to put across support for EGB, I am not knocking our organisation. I am totally knocking the FEI organisation for selling themselves & their soul for money. I do believe we run a clean sport in this country, I also believe there are major flaws in team selections, but that is an aside in this. Having been through the development squad process, it left me totally disallusioned with international management & selection. But, that isn't what this is about. This is about using a rider / horse / crew based in a nation with questionable ethics (& let's be honest there were massive questions raised regarding this selection on the EGB forum), & it's ironic that we have been accused internationally, after a blemish free record, of cheating because of said combination. We know that certain nations don't do as much as they could to ensure their horses are drug free all year round, just because of money everyone (including FEI) is too scared to come out & say it. The first question raised on the EGB forum about using this foreign horse was how can we be certain it hasn't been trained on drugs. Says everything really. We want to be & are clean at home. We are a great sport, very friendly, love our animals. Some countries have lost this in pursuit of bits of tin. That we don't award major prizes in this country helps keep it clean, we do it for the fun of it.

The comment has been made before in order to win trophies (ie accumulate most points) avoid hilly courses, go for less testing ones. It would be good if there was some sort of bonus point system to reward tackling tougher courses (maybe they could be graded?). Not all people do this though. I know a person trying to win the novice trophy this year. She didn't set out with this aim, but her results have put her in the running so for the last couple of months she has been trying to get there. Her last 2 rides of the season will be doing 2 days at Red Dragon (for those who don't know it's in the Welsh Mountains), very definately not doing it the easy way with fast flat rides! We run some brilliant moor rides in the south west, with good road links. AAnything that encourages people to come test themselves aginast the moors must be a positive step. Forget the rosette, come tackle a tough course. Remember the old saying, to finish is to win. We need to be remembering that at this point.
 
pip6 GB did not have a blemish free record before this championship. In the past a middle eastern owned and trained horse had been ridden by a GB rider on a team and returned a positive dope test.
 
When is the EGB committee going to issue a statement about doping and abuse? When is EGB going to publicly distance itself from such practices by withdrawing from FEI and international competitions ?
 
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