English attitudes to bullfighting- opinions for project

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lassiesuca

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I am doing an Extended Project and need to lead a debate amongst a group of my peers. So I wanted to try and open my mind to all the possible responses I may receive;


I am focusing on an aspect of Hispanic culture, and a particularly emotive one, bullfighting. I hate the sport, but I'm on a mission to try and understand the sport- not condone it, but understand the Spanish attitude and rationale.

Anyway, I've got to provoke a debate as part of my work (yes right up my street). So my question is to horsey people; why do so many condemn bullfighting and yet support fox-hunting? It's a similar concept? Does our perfectly 'normal' sport which is ingrained into British society, just as bad?

Thoughts please!




Just to put another spin on it;

We all happily eat a beef burger (well I don't like beef but roll with this), from McDonalds or wherever, few of us question where the animal has been reared and in what conditions it has been reared in; and some of them spend all their lives in discomfort, in bleak pens and fattened up for simply one reason; in Spain, the bulls are left in open pastures for the first years of their lives; they live free range and have no human contact until they enter the bull ring. They experience minutes of discomfort and suffering and they are then either killed, or if they survive, are turned back out into the pastures for the rest of their lives and live the life of a King.



What are your thoughts. I don't condone either sport, nor so much as condemn it, I just want to understand all sides of the debate.

Thanks x
 
erm, they arent left in the firld with no interaction. They are (I dont know the correct terminology) poked with a garrocha pole at various stages in their life. From what Ive heard, theye need to constantly keep attacking the cabbalero in order to be used for the ring and not just meat.

In FH, the fox has the chance to escape. There is nno was a bull can
A fox is either killed straight away or gets away scot free. Bulls are impaled with numerous barbs to rupture the muscles in their neck until they are unable to lift their head up, then killed with a sword.

No comparison, personally. And yes I eat british beek and lamb (mainly outdoor based production system), outdoor pork when at uni and free range eggs.

What about kosher and halal meat? That would get you a good debate!
 
I disagree with and condone both!

I think that they are both cruel (and no I'm not interested in starting a fox hunting debate!)
 
In my very humble opinion the differences of fox hunting/bullfighting is that fox hunting's purpose is pest control, although I don't hunt myself, this is the reasoning put forwards by hunt supporters for the sport. It is also argued that it is the most humane method for controlling the fox poulation.

Bullfighting serves no purpose other than to glorify the matador and show the 'skill' involved in avoiding injury while torturing an animal to death. It could be argued that the slaughter could be done much more quickly and humanely. The torture lasts longer than minutes from what I have seen, and to place an animal which has had no human contact in a ring full of loud cheering humans must be traumatic in itself. The killing is rarely quick or clean and many horses are also injured in the bullring. I believe that in Madrid there are no bulls that leave the ring alive to live the life of a King 'Matador' means killer.

Those who happily eat a hamburger often do so in ignorance of welfare issues in many cases, but I think that there is a growing awareness of those who research where their meat has come from and how it is reared for health as well as welfare reasons.
 
The kids at school think it's appalling (we're doing a cultural topic) because the pica (sharp sticks) in the neck are designed to sever the neck tendons so the bull can't raise it's head to properly look at the matador (killer). It has been banned in certain cities in Spain (Barcelona)

One imagines the fox is dispatched fairly quickly compared to a bull. I condemn bull fighting but to me, fox are pests.

Male calves in this country are traditionally culled at birth (although veal is making a resurgence and they're being used for this now apparently). I think raising them for entertainment purposes is wrong but food is fine.
 
Where to start. I think bull fighting is barbaric & it sickens me. Unless things have vastly changed I would not describe what the bull suffers as 'minutes of minor discomfort'. Torturing the bull also serves no useful purpose.
By comparison, regardless of what anyone claims now, hunting began for a purpose. Never seen hounds finish a fox, i'm sure others will have, but from what I can gather the end is quick. A healthy fox has a good chance of escape which is not an option for a bull.
Find it rather sickening that people choose to watch an animal die as a form of pastime at a bullfight. Whereas the vast majority of those who hunt probably couldn't give a monkeys whether they catch anything & aren't there with the sole intention of watching a fox die.
Don't have a problem with raising animals for meat but I do have a problem with factory farming & the inhumane manner many meat animals live & die. Off topic but halal is also just so wrong.
England banned dog fighting & bear baiting years ago, but Spain has many festivals that traditionally include mistreatment of animals.
That said, I do think the English are hypocrites. During the huge uproar prior to the hunting ban, I regularly saw many people in tescos wearing anti hunt badges happily buying the cheap eggs from caged hens & buying cosmetics from brands that are pro animal testing.
Hope this helps
 
OK interesting one.
At 15 years old I visited a family in Lisbon, Portugal. As a treat took me to a bull fight. They nip the skin at the back of the neck of the bull and put vinegar in the wound to make it madder. The matador who is meant to be the hero sticks a spiked BARB which is decorated in tassles into the bulls neck(spine area) and does this 5 or 6 times as the bull charges past him. Blood is pouring down the neck of a very distressed bull. (I was bought a barb stick with tassles as a gift).

My view sitting with a cheering clapping crowd. I must have been one of the very few foreigners to see this. I ended up arguing with the people in front as I was the only person cheering the bull. I told them I thought it was cruelty in medieval form and the bull had no hope. They are taken and slaughtered. If they collapsed or came out as a couple did and fell before they started with broken legs. The helpers tried to drag the bull out the ring by its tiny elastic tail and clambered over them. The animal was so distressed. It was one of the worse things and the portuguese family had no idea my treat was not a treat to me.
Afterwards we toured the museum and there are pictures of matadors about to be impaled by horns of bulls with a couple of matador deaths. Again I was the only one thinking serves you right. I dont know if bull fighting is banned now in Portugal and there is nothing brave about tormenting an animal for fun and entertainment. I assume all member countrys of the EU dont bull fight anymore. I dont know where the green grass scenario comes from in your quote as it wasnt a few minutes but could be about 20 mins of suffering and misery. They are killed after. I also think fox hunting is equally medieval and dont believe its the kindest way to cull an animal.(That is the spin that is put on it to ease pro supporters conscience and they like to believe that)!
 
Well I was once never for or against bull fighting, I reasoned as you say, I eat meat, and the bulls used in fights do get a longer life, and live out at grass...

And ive always said dont judge it until you see one..

Well I live in Spain and I did go to a couple of local ones, the bulls are normally in the ring for 15-20 mins before they are killed, and the ones I saw where by the 'pro' bullfighters and they were killed very fast... so I didnt have a huge problem with it... like I say I eat meat, drink milk etc... and dont see the the animals I eat being treated any better...

Then last year the local village had a bullfight for the 'learner' bullfighters, and as a freind had recently moved here and had never seen one, we went to watch...

I walked out after the 2nd bull in disgust... it was awful, they took ages to kill them, often 4-5 goes with the long swords and you could really tell they were suffering.. one bull walked away and would not flight after 15 mins.. it knew its fate...

So now im anti bullfighting... and today I deleted a FB spanish friend as he was posting lots of Bulling fighting photos, (hes for bullfighting) and I could not bare to look at them...

Though I do still eat meat, but I do buy eggs from a friend with free range chickens..
 
I'm also in Spain. I hate the thought of bull fighting and the posters that are starting to reappear in my town. I've asked a lot of the locals and they say they dislike it, but use it as an excuse to a drink and to meet friends. A local businessman takes clients to them to bond. Apart from incidents like Padilla the now one eyed bull fighter no one seems that bothered by it.

Not all the locals are for it though in the one nearest me, its been daubed with graffiti, calling it a "butcher" and "murderground".

Where I live is close to Pamplona, and my village and others nearby do their own version of the bull run, which I feel is just as cruel, and ends in them being killed anyway. In my head thats closest to the fox hunt concept, the bulls are tormented and harassed down slippery streets falling and colliding before being cornered and killed.

The YO where I ride is a retired bullfighter and trains up young horses to be used in the bullring, which I really struggle with.

I don't support fox hunting, but I try to sit on the fence of that as I am from London and don't see why I should force my town opinions on those in the country who are more familiar with the processes than me.
 
I can't say that Bull Fighting and Fox Hunting are a like... Fox hunting was a form of pest control and when the fox was outfoxed by the hounds it really was over with in a matter of seconds... Bull fighting on the other hand is a more drawn out process, lasting what appears to be a long time, and the bull becomes weaker and weaker with the blood loss and damaged muscles in the neck and shoulders...

The link below is of a bull ring (If you are against bull fighting then please don not click the link)

The reason for me posting this link is not to show the bull being injured... but more of a focus on the horse and rider. The skill involved is unreal, it really is life and death stuff in that ring. Focus on the horse, not the bull...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48qwyoSN6H0
 
I am not quite sure where you got your facts from bull fighting! You almost make it sound as though the bulls are in a lucky position...?? (They are not the character from Gladiator whereby they awarded their freedom should they survive!!). Unfortunately I cannot help you with trying to justify it and I feel your pain, as I feel you will be hard pushed to put any sort of argument up for it either.

How anyone can go and watch a bull be speared into a long and agonising death for enjoyment is totally beyond me but the fact the matador is made to be some kind of heroin or manly being is quite retarted. A fair fight it is not.

Now should the madador be placed in the ring with no spear with the bull - one on one (the bull being fit and ready to go)... then yes I would probably watch that... lol

Goodluck in trying to find some answers but I fear there are none.

p.s I am of course also anti hunt
 
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I think the skill of the rider's horses are unbelivable but its barbaric and cowardly what ever the skill levels are.

Bulls kept without water for days then allowed to drink their fill before they are released to a certain horrific death.

The horns cut down prior to the fight, so poor bull thinks he is impailing the pr*k with the cape and he is missing by a mega mile.

Its as bad as bear bating in my opinion and spain and portugal should be elbowed out of the EU until they raise welfare standards.
 
It saddens me when animals are abused and killed for the entertainment of humans. I don't agree with either and don't see how either can bring people pleasure
 
The horses and riders are undoubtedly skilled but that's irrelevant. It is possible to be a skillful rider yet still be a cruel & sadistic knob.
Nnh-Pmsl at the reference to gladiator
 
Jake10 said:
I'm ok with this >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4tV9KVPSc&feature=related not sure if it is actually classed as bull fighting.

No bulls harmed (no idea if harm came to the bulls after the vid)

No humans harmed

No horses or sharp objects involved

** NeedNewHorse this vid is as close as I could fined to a fit, ready to go bull and a madador with no spear
Click to expand...

Out of interest, do you know why they are 'ready to go' bulls?!!! It is usually to do with:

Pins stuck in testicles
Ginger and chilli up the anus
Electric shock before release
 
Moomin1 said:
Out of interest, do you know why they are 'ready to go' bulls?!!! It is usually to do with:

Pins stuck in testicles
Ginger and chilli up the anus
Electric shock before release
Click to expand...

So even the more humane looking vids are actually inhumane :( Do you happen to have any links to where you found the above information?
 
I think anything that tortures and kills an animal in the name of sport or entertainment is wrong.

I have no problem people eating meat, raise it right, kill it humanely, and there is nothing wrong with it.

But bull fighting is plain torture of an animal, and I cannot for the life of me figure out what enjoyment people get from it, that people cheering the matador on don't feel some kind of shock at the treatment of the bull.

I also don't approve of fox hunting for the same reasons, that being terrorising and animal and then killing it in the name of sport just doesn't sit right with my conscience.

Just my opinion, and I don't want to get into a debate, pest control arguments will not win me over! :(
 
Jake10 said:
So even the more humane looking vids are actually inhumane :( Do you happen to have any links to where you found the above information?
Click to expand...

I did a study on it when in university. I am sure there are plenty of things out there if you google it.

Here's one paragraph from some random site

Once in the plaza are subjected to all kinds of torture. In the beginning, the bulls are kept in outdoor pens, but just before the race are kept in individual pens and completely dark where, among other things, they throw sandbags on the kidneys, sometimes they cut the horns At other times they cut themselves on the hind legs then covered with turpentine or ammonia, so the animal feels itchy and not stop moving. It is even said that they are sometimes smeared Vaseline on the eye to distort their vision, they are given laxatives, they put cotton in the nose and they stick pins in the testicles.
 
Jake10 said:
I'm ok with this >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4tV9KVPSc&feature=related not sure if it is actually classed as bull fighting.

No bulls harmed (no idea if harm came to the bulls after the vid)

No humans harmed

No horses or sharp objects involved

** NeedNewHorse this vid is as close as I could find to a fit, ready to go bull and a madador with no spear
Click to expand...

After further investigation I'm not Ok with any of it. Moomin1 you're right there is plenty of info out there :(
 
Watch that little matador programme, it seems cruel for all participating, humans and animals. Repeated pain for the bull is cruel.
 
indie999 said:
OK interesting one.
At 15 years old I visited a family in Lisbon, Portugal. As a treat took me to a bull fight. They nip the skin at the back of the neck of the bull and put vinegar in the wound to make it madder. The matador who is meant to be the hero sticks a spiked BARB which is decorated in tassles into the bulls neck(spine area) and does this 5 or 6 times as the bull charges past him. Blood is pouring down the neck of a very distressed bull. (I was bought a barb stick with tassles as a gift).

My view sitting with a cheering clapping crowd. I must have been one of the very few foreigners to see this. I ended up arguing with the people in front as I was the only person cheering the bull. I told them I thought it was cruelty in medieval form and the bull had no hope. They are taken and slaughtered. If they collapsed or came out as a couple did and fell before they started with broken legs. The helpers tried to drag the bull out the ring by its tiny elastic tail and clambered over them. The animal was so distressed. It was one of the worse things and the portuguese family had no idea my treat was not a treat to me.
Afterwards we toured the museum and there are pictures of matadors about to be impaled by horns of bulls with a couple of matador deaths. Again I was the only one thinking serves you right. I dont know if bull fighting is banned now in Portugal and there is nothing brave about tormenting an animal for fun and entertainment. I assume all member countrys of the EU dont bull fight anymore. I dont know where the green grass scenario comes from in your quote as it wasnt a few minutes but could be about 20 mins of suffering and misery. They are killed after. I also think fox hunting is equally medieval and dont believe its the kindest way to cull an animal.(That is the spin that is put on it to ease pro supporters conscience and they like to believe that)!
Click to expand...

PLEASE JUST READ MY EXPERIENCE AT 15 YEARS OF AGE ABOUT 1980. THE PORTUGUESE SITTING NEAR ME WERE FLABERGASTED THAT I WAS NOT ENJOYING THE SPECTACLE AND HAD NO FEELINGS WHATSOEVER TO AN ANIMAL. AT THE TIME THEY WERE THE POOR MAN OF EUROPE AND ABOUT TO JOIN THE EU.
 
I think neither fox hunting nor bullfighting have a place in modern society. It's a legacy of stuffy generations wanting to keep traditions alive. What on earth for? Some heritage is best kept but bullfighting and hunting?

We don't go to war on horseback anymore yet we still practice the moves for it in modern competition I.e. dressage. that's acceptable.

I am no fluffy bunny but I cannot see the point of bullfighting other than a rich mans playground and the same goes for hunting in this country. It's sport for big egos.

I don't even get why the fences at the grand national have to be set up so that horses may die. That also brings up a bit of sick in my mouth. I will happily go and see a point to point though because I think it's reasonable to ask the horse to do those.

I also can't stand pheasant shoots.... Let's grow a load of birds so we can get drunk and go out shooting them for fun come winter. Yay! Check out my latest gun and me two dogs. They're just wasted after that. My dad has only ever brought back two edible birds from shoots. I hate him going out shooting. Why can't he just play golf!!!

Everyone is guilty though for watching or participating. Pastimes that involve same amounts of skill on horseback but zero suffering are available but no one watches it or supports it because it's too darn boring. Better to watch a bull suffer, or an orange pest die in various bits, or an injured bird fall from the sky, or a young horse break its neck over beechers brook.... Fun, yay!
 
Was told that the bulls who survive the fight are killed after because they are too aggressive. This appeared on Burke's Backyard, a TV show that used to be on Australian TV. Have read that the horses used in Spanish bullfighting are drugged. They are blindfolded. These horses often receive horrific injuries.

Death for a bull is certain. Death for a fox being pursued by a hunt is unlikely and a mute question as fox hunting is no longer allowed in the UK.

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000423
http://www.bullfightingfreeeurope.org/
http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/the-world-society-for-the-protection/
 
I dont agree with either.

If an animal needs to be culled or destroyed we as a humane race should see that it is done quickly and as pain free as possible, What right do we have to torture animals???

The idea of chasing a scared animal till exhaustion

or



throwing spears into it causing pain and stress

This is no different to the _*(&^*&%$ Japs hunting whales with harpoons then tying them alive by their tails to a ship and dragging them along while they bleed to death then dragged to a ship and turned into processed meat .,:mad: :mad: :mad:

There are ways to do it with minimal pain and stress.
 
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Leviathan said:
This is no different to the _*(&^*&%$ Japs hunting whales with harpoons then tying them alive by their tails to a ship and dragging them along while they bleed to death then dragged to a ship and turned into processed meat .,:mad: :mad: :mad:
Click to expand...

Don't even get me started on that...... :mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
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