English riding - I think having a 'contact' is fundamentally flawed

[flyingfeet]

So here is my musing for today

In Western riding all horses are started off in bosals and everything is kept light, they then progress to snaffles and finally long shanked curbs

All training is focused towards instant response, treated with 'release' the instant the horse does as asked. So simply you put on the leg, horse moves away from it, leg removed. Stops are dramatic, but always treated with that release.

So why is it that this does not compute with English riders?
When we start a horse, the majority will go in side reins, which teaches a fixed unforgiving force, which penalises any stumble and often sets the incorrect bend

Then you might use a lovely pessoa, which teaches tolerance to all sorts of movement on the mouth. And even (sorry everyone), lungie bungie or draw reins over the back and through the front legs gets the horse used to nice sawing and teaches them to drop below the contact to avoid it.

The more I look at traditional and new gadgets, the more I like my simple chambon which is actually quite transferable between English and Western riding.

I am not good at holding a contact, frankly I don't really see why I should hang onto my horses mouth (even if akin to "holding a small childs hand"!), I'm sure horses don't particularly like this constant pressure, but tolerate it and they are very amenable.

Question is will anything ever change until we see the pinnacles of sport change their riding techniques (which means free contact has to beat constant contact) ?

Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't like having a constant hold of the reins and legs on all the time!!

 

[ecrozier]

Hmm this is going to be an interest one!
From ENTIRELY personal experience:

my younsgter has worn side reins once in his 4 years, they were loose and there dimly as a safety net the first time he wore tack on the lunge.

In terms of a contact. Left with a totally loose rein he bumbles along with his nose in the air and his back pretty 'flat'. Take a minimal contact and he lifts his back and suddenly has a seriously nice trot on him - sure this is then working towards building the muscles he ultimately needs to sj/event?
I don't think a contact needs to be harsh and despite much evidence to the contrary I think a correctly started horse will offer an 'outline' with no sawing or anything required. I can catagorically say I have never sawn on his mouth in any way.

 

[LEC]

I never start a horse in side reins. What is the point when they cannot balance and do things like trip which then punishes them for finding a balance? Also I disagree as think more and more people leave the mouth alone until the horse can move forwards off the leg. Until the horse is going straight and forwards you are fighting a losing battle trying to get a true connection. Everyone I have ever trained with has worked this way from 4* eventers to GP dressage trainers. Its hard leaving the mouth alone as you desperately want to try and correct but thats where a neck strap comes in!

 

[ecrozier]

Absolutely LEC everyone I have had lessons with with mine has said only think about a contact until going forwards off the leg - as it happens he offered that much quicker than expected but no one has advocated fighting his head down.

 

[Apercrumbie]

"Sawing" is incorrect and not allowed! If you did that to my horse his head would shoot straight up in the air and he would hollow completely and get all arsey. I have never used side reins on him either.

I completely see your point, and with many horses and riders it is true, but you could also say similar things about western riders as well.

 

[flyingfeet]

Sorry probably should have clarified the sawing action comes from any gadget that connects leg movement with the mouth (the sawing is the inadvertent side effect).

Yes and true not all western riders do it right, just as not all english riders do.

However going back to my ramblings, I still question the need for so many riders to have such a strong contact.

I was watching the link katB posted on the noseband thread, and you can see that more than a few dressage riders strap the horse up and then put serious pressure on the mouth (the slow-mo one). It amazes me that horses still perform like this.

 

[ecrozier]

I think there are always riders in any discipline that get it wrong. I also think a lot of people buy horses backed and working and inherit a way of going that a horse is used to? I ride a friend's horse for dressage and she is quite heavy in the hand, but that's just how she came and probably a result of how she was ridden many years ago.

Think you are probably preaching to the converted a bit though on this website ESP the CR section. See the post on nosebands!!

 

[Jenni_]

i was always taught the first three objectives when you sat on a horse where : Forward , Straight and Relaxed.

first thing should always be that the horse is forward off the leg - if he is not forward and working from behind, he is not going to work properly when in an outline and only drag himself along.

Straight : working in circles and serpintines making sure the horse is in the correct bend, moving away from the leg, and his tracks are 'on rails'

Realxed : working on making the shoulders and jaw relaxed, which in turn allows the bit to be accepted properly with the lightest contact, and relaxing the muscles so the back can be used.

no sawing, side reins, or any more mumbo jumbo needed

The contact is only as hard as the rider makes it, if you have nice enough hands the contact need only be featherlight, and a horse treated with this respect from the start, then the contact need never be strong

 

[siennamum]

I think OP you have a point. I do see plenty of young horses lunged in side reins tight prior ro backing, it is sad as I think they will be either napping or lame by the time they are 8.

I also am idle and like a horse which will do a handy pony course with virtually no contact & just off the legs & seat. I tend to do everthing with a very light contact & only let people ride my horses if they ride like a cowboy (in the nicest possible way).

Having said that my current youngster has a trot like a 14.2 and is quite inverted still. I do lunge him in a bungee once a week to strengthen him up and get him to understand working his topline & elevating his shoulders. I'm also still riding him with loose reins & doing some hill work to help him, but I have to be fairly proactive with him or he'll happily go around with his nose in the air for the rest of his days.

 

[kerilli]

I disagree that the 'draw reins over the back and through the front legs' is 'sawing on the mouth'. If the gadget is fitted correctly, it won't saw at all. Also, I fit it to the cavesson now, not to the bit.
I have had 2 horses absolutely not get the chambon, at all. I've never had one not get the draw-reins-over-back, it's simpler for them imho. It encourages them to swing forward in a happy relaxed loose way.
My trainer starts a horse with a single side rein on the inside only on the lunge, to teach the horse to bend correctly and go forward to the inside rein contact.
I agree about not always wanting the horse to be on a strong contact from strong legs. I don't like the idea that seems to be prevalent in dressage, that the higher up the levels a horse goes, the stronger it should become in the contact. Whatever happened to "self-carriage" and lightness?
I ride my horses on a very light contact or no contact a lot of the time. I like them to swing along happily and carry themselves.
On a very light contact, there is no 'constant pressure' at all, it is elastic and soft. Nothing detrimental there.

 

[Firewell]

Young horse training aside I do agree that no contact at all is better than the wrong contact (e.g heavy handed) or an inconsistent contact which could confuse the horse (head tossing?) or make it's mouth insensitive.
A correct contact though I think is a good thing! In my mind (and I am just your average riding club rider) a good contact should be consistent, elastic and fluid allowing you to support the horse in self carriage and give the horse security, it should flow with the horse and not against it connecting you (the rider) to the horse in the same way our seat connects and our legs connect. A good contact (when I get it right lol) feels effortless and easy and I feel at one with my horse when I have a good contact.
That's not to say it should be anything other than a connection and a guide, in classical training it's not used to hold the horses head down or anything, isn't that why they do give and retake in tests? To show that the horse is in self carriage and the contact is just support.
I do like to knot my reins and ride around the school without them, it's fun being able to turn my horse they way I want just by moving my legs and body and to stop my horse just by sitting up, I practise that quite a bit! It's not the same as him working properly with me though I don't think .

I've also seen some people ride in the US and in some parts it is cultural to ride with a very loose contact and I dont mean western or reining which is totally different (which can be amazing) but showing. Those horses I saw looked very on the forehand

 

[3DE]

From what I have seen western horses are very on the forhand - which is what classical riding tries to avoid. Also if I were to ride with a western bit I wouldn't want to have the horse on a contact - some can be pretty horrific!

The first few with a google search...

There's no way I would put a bit like those in any of my horses' mouths... Yes the riding may look light but it certainly isn't kind - the horses respond quickly because they have to to avoid discomfort...

Also a bosal isn't actually all that kind - because it is rope and not fixed it can move about so give confusing signals. Also the rope can be quite severe on the horse - I mean, we use rope halters for control...

FWIW all of the horses I have owned/loaned in the past have neck reined - not because I am 'for' western but because you don't need to actually teach a horse to neck rein - it just works. An excellent way to teach youngsters direction.

 

[Weezy]

There's no way I would put a bit like those in any of my horses' mouths... Yes the riding may look light but it certainly isn't kind - the horses respond quickly because they have to to avoid discomfort...

Better a split second of discomfort than the usual nag-nag discomfort you see at most RC shows....controversial? Maybe, but it is true.

I grew up in Spain, riding Spanish horses in a Spanish way, as well as English. We rode horses in serreta nosebands - something that would cause most people in this country to call the RSPCA. However, these horses had the lightest, nicest contacts, worked correctly and were free and easy.

I am very much more a rider predisposed to no contact....it is what lets me down in this country TBH. I have tried and very much failed to ride *English*...am now back to having confidence in what I know and I prefer it.

 

[teapot]

What's a serrata noseband Weezy?

 

[MissSBird]

Horses in western classes undergo the exact same basic concepts as in English, just applied differently. The competative western show rider has a concept of where the head should be, an idea of correct collection and correct way of going. And they have as many techniques and gadgets to do so as english has.

I've been around quite a few low level rodeos whilst staying with friends, and seen quite a few western pleasure classes. That's where you see the problems with western. In the same way high level english riding can look effortless, so can high level western. Go lower, and you see just as many instances of discomfort in horses.

There are other ways to cause a horse discomfort than holding a contact on a mouth, and I'll list what I've seen of western riders if you really want me to. Suffice to say, having seen both at low level, neither is worse than the other.

 

[andraste]

All other questions aside, if you tried riding my 6yo with no contact on the outside rein he'd swiftly introduce you to his repertoire of robust spooks and bunny-hops. He really needs the contact to keep him focused. That does not mean I am 'hanging on' to him. I frequently have next to no contact on his inside rein.

 

[icestationzebra]

I am not good at holding a contact, frankly I don't really see why I should hang onto my horses mouth (even if akin to "holding a small childs hand"!), I'm sure horses don't particularly like this constant pressure, but tolerate it and they are very amenable.

Question is will anything ever change until we see the pinnacles of sport change their riding techniques (which means free contact has to beat constant contact) ?

Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't like having a constant hold of the reins and legs on all the time!!

I think there is a huge difference between hanging on a horses mouth and having true elastic connection through the contact. You refer to it as constant pressure, the contact I like to ride with is a constant conversation. I think if you have sat on a horse that is forward, swinging, willing to work, soft through it's entire body and in self carriage then you may change your view. Sadly a lot of people seem to have no feel whatsoever and therefore never get even half way to feeling this which results in the sort of contact you refer to

 

[brighthair]

I think there is a huge difference between hanging on a horses mouth and having true elastic connection through the contact. You refer to it as constant pressure, the contact I like to ride with is a constant conversation. I think if you have sat on a horse that is forward, swinging, willing to work, soft through it's entire body and in self carriage then you may change your view. Sadly a lot of people seem to have no feel whatsoever and therefore never get even half way to feeling this which results in the sort of contact you refer to

definitely agree with this. I had a lesson today, and at some points had a stronger contact while I was asking for what I wanted. The last 15-20 minutes of the lesson she went like a dream, the feeling when you can just sit and not do anything as such, with a really light contact, and your horse is on the aids, swinging, in rhythm and so soft is magic!

 

[Dobby]

I've got to say I don't like riding with constant contact. Whichever pretty description you want to give it - holding a childs hand, or having a conversation - for general riding it's got to be nice for the horse not to have a constant contact, which is in my opinion simply constant pressure on the mouth. That's what I like about western even though I've never ridden it - there's no hanging onto the horses mouth.

 

[MrsMozart]

My horse prefers a constant contact, from leg and from hand. Ride without that, i.e. legs not touching, and she will ar$e about. Take up the contact and she becomes part of the rider. Can't describe the feeling. I'm not saying by this that we have a floating and 'correct' outline, etc. etc. etc., but we are together in our (my) endeavours. Sorry, too late/tired to make a lot of sense.

 

[Saucisson]

Is there not good equitation and bad equitation in any sport?

I dunno about "English riding" but I learnt ride in a pretty poor riding school in the UK. I then went on later to have lessons in better schools.

Now I have my own horse here and Mr Grumpity OH as my instructor. With him (but not "here") the horse must learn to support his head and neck and it is up to the "rider" to train this position and musculation. It is certainly not a constant pull on the mouth. When the horse is trained, he understands where he must be so he receives the minimal contact in the mouth.

The reward is always to "lache" or "to give". Is this not the same in the UK?

I am of the opinion that most international riders abide by the same sytem - a system that works whether English/German/Dutch/French etc. It's a mixture of the best no?

 

[Starbucks]

Am I the only one who thinks the two ways of riding can't really be compared? Haven't seen many western riders doing an event/dressage test/round of SJs in the same way I haven't seen anyone riding english roping any steers or barrel racing! Horses for courses.

 

[MrsMozart]

Forgot to add: I used to live on a ranch and rode Western. Didn't like it as I felt too far away from the horse, too disconnected. Yes we could do all sorts of moves, but it felt as though it was by remote control. Riding English it is, to me, more like conducting an orchaestra - in the lead as it were, but smooth and flowing and together.

 

[Saucisson]

Better a split second of discomfort than the usual nag-nag discomfort you see at most RC shows....controversial? Maybe, but it is true.

I grew up in Spain, riding Spanish horses in a Spanish way, as well as English. We rode horses in serreta nosebands - something that would cause most people in this country to call the RSPCA. However, these horses had the lightest, nicest contacts, worked correctly and were free and easy.

I am very much more a rider predisposed to no contact....it is what lets me down in this country TBH. I have tried and very much failed to ride *English*...am now back to having confidence in what I know and I prefer it.

I know what it is and have seen the results. There's a lot of Spanish horses here. OH doesn't count it as "equitation" (but to be fair, he doesn't rate Spanish horse/riders either ) and sees it as cruel. If it scars the nose permanently (maybe in bad hands - I don't know) but I'm not keen. OH is an ex-military man and is by no means a fluffy-bunny but he really hates this method, he thinks it's an excuse for bad horsemanship.

 

[Starbucks]

Forgot to add: I used to live on a ranch and rode Western. Didn't like it as I felt too far away from the horse, too disconnected. Yes we could do all sorts of moves, but it felt as though it was by remote control. Riding English it is, to me, more like conducting an orchaestra - in the lead as it were, but smooth and flowing and together.

Suppose it's because I can't remember not being able to ride English style - but when I've ridden western it's given me a good idea of what it's like!! Felt like a comlete retard! Only done it a couple of times though and it was on horses who were completely not infront of the leg... maybe I was doing it wrong.

 

[3DE]

For those interested this is a Serreta noseband - roughly translates as serrater (sp)

Imaging the extreme discomfort the horse must be in - no wonder you don't need a contact . Imagine the pain if the horse does something like spook, and unbalances the rider...

FWIW I have worked with horses ridden with on of these nosebands in Spain for a year after finishing college. The horses are well schooled but they felt very 'weird' underneath me. The only way I can describe is the way a newly broken youngster feels underneath you - it doesn't feel as if the horse is part of you, or even understanding, just doing what you want to avoid discomfort... It's hard to describe but it isn't a feeling of a 'safe' partnership Those who have sat on youngsters will know what I mean...

 

[icestationzebra]

For those interested this is a Serreta noseband - roughly translates as serrater (sp)

Imaging the extreme discomfort the horse must be in - no wonder you don't need a contact . Imagine the pain if the horse does something like spook, and unbalances the rider...

FWIW I have worked with horses ridden with on of these nosebands in Spain for a year after finishing college. The horses are well schooled but they felt very 'weird' underneath me. The only way I can describe is the way a newly broken youngster feels underneath you - it doesn't feel as if the horse is part of you, or even understanding, just doing what you want to avoid discomfort... It's hard to describe but it isn't a feeling of a 'safe' partnership Those who have sat on youngsters will know what I mean...

I know exactly what you mean and I hate the feeling - it's because there is no trust. A lot of babies are very trusting (if they have been started right) and you don't get this with them. Of course you get the wobblyness and the non-understanding moments - but not that feeling of fear and distrust. There is nothing to connect you and no relationship which is not what riding is about for me. Horses that feel pressured, fearful and frightened of pain demonstrate this and it makes me feel very sad for them

 

[perfect11s]

I think the origonal poster misses the point there is always a contact with western or should be!!! contact is used more at the start and gets more refined as the horse progresses thru training hopefully so just the weight of the reins is the signal , im no expert but the worst thing is a contiuous heavy pull with no release and or trying to hold the horse in a outline... that makes for a dead mouth... nose out leaning, run though the bridle monster with no brakes!!!

 

[Weezy]

Each to their own And the nosebands should be wrapped in leather, and don;t necessarily have serrated edges beneath, and they should NOT leave a mark if used correctly. Of course they are open to abuse, just as bits are. Set up correctly they really are not very different to bitless bridles.

 

[bliss87]

the only gadget mentioned in the first post ive ever used is side reins and that only occasionaly on the lunge

I ride leg to hand, my horse is taught to carry himself by using himself rather than a mass of gadgets,