English vs Canadian 'English' riding, any help? - London Ontario

[Rambling Horse]

I am asking on behalf of a beginner/novice Canadian friend.

For two years they were having lessons here in the UK, on school ponies with the odd university competition (on non-school horses). Upon going back to their native Canada they have resumed their lessons in what they assumed would be the usual English riding that they have been taught in England, but this hasn't been the case.

The yard they're at teaches North American 'English' and they're finding the style different and as a result are experiencing something of a disconnect with the instructor and the horse (I personally think this mare sounds unsuitable; it has tried to throw him off a couple of times just by the mounting block and even galloped off with him last week. Sounds like saddle and bit issues may be playing a part, but is still I think an irresponsible choice on behalf of the yard. Thankfully he has a good seat).

It sounds from what he has told me that the aids are completely different and the horse isn't correctly responding, because he's unused to having to use voice commands to get it to do anything well, (It makes no sense to me, he's not lunging the thing, he's riding it!) and he's telling me that he's having to ride on a really long rein with little control? It sounds as though there are general communication issues all round.

What I'm sort of asking is, has anyone any advice on what they should do, and whether there's any 'proper' English yards or anywhere that gives English lessons around London, Ontario?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I have put some feelers out and I'll let you know if anyone suggests a yard that might suit.

 

[Rambling Horse]

I have put some feelers out and I'll let you know if anyone suggests a yard that might suit.

Thank you so much! I will let them know.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Well I've had quite a thought provoking reply.

This rider needs to understand that his riding must adapt to the horse he is on, given the horse's environment and training. If the instructor is teaching riding by different methods, on horses trained to those methods, then that is what the rider is there to learn. The rider is not discarding what he already knows. He's adding to it.

I can't imagine why any rider would assume the riding in one country would be the same as another. Even from one instructor or program to another. That may be the real root cause of the problems. Riders at top international levels spend time in programs in different countries in order to learn completely new ways of thinking about and practicing the same sport they ride at home. That would be the best way to approach this - as an opportunity to expand skills.

I would hazard that "the aids are completely different and the horse isn't correctly responding" really means that "the aids are completely different and the rider is resisting learning them, which is confusing the horse". The horse doesn't know anything about the UK and the differences with North American riding styles. It knows only its own training.

If the program doesn't suit this rider, then fair enough if the rider looks for something else. If the rider chooses to stay with this program then that is an opportunity to learn new methods of riding. If the rider only wants to practice riding the way he's done it before then maybe he can find a barn somewhere that practices what he learned, taught by someone from the same part of the UK ... not sure that is a realistic expectation, though.

I have no idea what is going on with the riding style from that very vague third-hand description. Since the rider doesn't seem very receptive to whatever is being taught, there is too much static in the message to guess.

I have to say that having read the above, I thought that it would be well worth embracing the opportunity to learn new skills. If however they really don't like that style of riding, then maybe finding a Dressage instructor would be the way to go?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

More thoughts. There is also a link in this one that might be useful.

Just a case of shoddy training masked as "North American Riding". There are tons of barns like that here. Horses barely ride-able, due to vices, and lousy training from trainers who don't want to take the time to do something right. But watch them collect their $30 to $60 an hour fee!
Not all lesson instructors or barns have what it takes to run a good program, even though they say they do. Voice commands are usually discouraged at the barns I attend. I use my seat and leg aids, then my heels, then my voice (if permitted), and then a crop. I also ride with no slack in the reins so I can collect the horse, and stay in control. Even less slack when I'm cantering, galloping, or jumping.

A good friend of mine is a A-circuit trainer. I would talk with her about the barns I was riding at, to gain some sense as to whether my balking at a new training idea was merited or not. I don't care where I'm riding. If it's not approved in a show, then I don't want to be doing it. Even if the instructor says I should. I don't show, but I ride like someone who does, so I can better myself.

At one "dressage" barn, I was told to "march my hips" to get the horse to speed up. Both my trainer friend and the classical dressage trainer I ride with now (who studied for 25 years in England), vehemently disagreed, and said that was really bad form. I later found out that this "dressage" trainer didn't compete, and when she was confronted with issues in her teaching style, was very defensive. So I left.

It's extremely frustrating to move to a new barn, and find out that I look stupid because half of the stuff I do is incorrect because of bad teaching. What wins in shows and is good form is my standard. I expect the 'competitive' barns (who advertise as competitive barns), to know what it takes to win in a ring, and teach that. Not some hocus-pocus thing they thought up to "see how it works". Sorry if it sounds forceful, but I have been told so many different things as a rider, and ridden so many dangerous horses, that it makes my cynical to stables that think they know what it takes to be a good rider, and know nothing.

I was recently at a barn that charged $65 an hour, and put me on a horse with an abscess who still had duct tape on his front hooves (though they told me he was fine). I was told to keep him cantering. He kept bucking, nearly threw me six times (I counted). I stayed on, but once I realized he was in extreme pain, not "frisky" as they said, then I left after refusing to canter him any more. And they are considered one of the best barns in the area.

I have been on many different bucking horses, and can tell you that if a horse bucks or bolts, and the stable is nonchalant about it, RUN!! Bucking, bolting, and rearing are three of the most dangerous things a horse can do. He is there to take a lesson, not retrain problem horses. Or train green ones. It takes just one accident to seriously injure oneself if they don't know what they are doing. And no reputable stable will put a lesson student on a unruly horse. It's a recipe for disaster.

The only thing the dangerous horses I've been on have taught me is that I hate horses at times, I hate riding at times, I am not fond of people either at times (who knew of these vices, but neglected to tell me, or blamed them on me), and how easy it is to get seriously hurt, or lose one's confidence. I did not learn anything beneficial to my self as a rider. It just isn't worth it.

Again, it is NOT North American riding. It is a low class barn trying to make some extra dough without doing the necessary work. Don't fall for it.

Find a dressage barn. A classical dressage one preferably. An internet search should bring some up. I see a few in that area so far. http://sprucehaven.com/ http://briarquest.com/services-2

And there is more. Remember, it takes once incident to ruin one's confidence or to seriously injure them. Even if he thinks he can handle a horse with vices, he shouldn't try. There's a huge difference between a horse that's green (still shouldn't be a lesson horse), and a horse that was well trained, but learned that it gets it's way by being dangerous and unpredictable. Not worth it!

 

[Rambling Horse]

Faracat, thank you so very much, these responses are incredibly helpful!

To the first one, that is mostly my fault. I will admit to being really quite critical of what I've been told; I prefer how we do things here and I'm rather set in my ways. The rider in question is far less critical of it and I think he is putting a lot of the blame on his own riding ability rather than the horse and teaching. I totally agree, the horse is probably confused. He is probably confused. The instructor from what I've heard just sounds frustrated. I can't speak for him about whether or not he wants to learn how to ride in that way, but the whole set up sounds unsuitable to me, from what I've heard, hence the tone.
Having said that, I'm sure any reputable instructor from any part of the UK would teach English riding to a similar if not identical style and standard for the level my friend is currently riding at, but I'm not about to argue with a quotation from someone I don't know! I don't agree but my friend may still take something from it, and that's why I'm posting after all

The second response is much more along the lines of my suspicions. I really do believe that the horse he's been put on is completely and utterly unsuitable. He's already come off once and was fine, but I dread to think what may happen if it manages to unseat him again. When he first started going for lessons it was in a very poorly fitted saddle (from what I guessed from description) and it sounded like from what I was being told it was in pain, unwilling to stand at the block and bucked as he mounted, and it still took a couple of weeks before they actually did anything about it. And he was told to "reverse" last week - turn the poor mare on a sixpence on the track in trot. With a potentially bad back too.
And he was told the mare might be going on loan in the spring. Which makes me think he's being used to bring a horse that's had time off back into work.

Anyway, I won't keep rambling, but thank you so so much again for taking the time to get these responses, I'm sure they will be greatly appreciated!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It really sounds like a new barn is the best option. Hopefully the links in the second reply are helpful and your friend will be enjoying their riding lessons again soon.

 

[Rambling Horse]

It really sounds like a new barn is the best option. Hopefully the links in the second reply are helpful and your friend will be enjoying their riding lessons again soon.

I hope they are too! They certainly look promising. Even though it looks like they may not provide horses for lessons and my friend is in no place to buy their own, they hopefully will put his search on the right track.

 

[spookypony]

There are good and bad instructors and barns in every country, and from my experience moving from Canada to the UK, I've had no problems adjusting. That being said, there are at least two distinct "English" styles in use in the immediate vicinity of London, Ontario, and as a child who started in a German/Austrian tradition and then moved to a Hunter/Jumper stable, without knowing what the latter was, I also got terribly confused. Hunter/Jumper is technically a bit different.

I still have friends and relatives in London who are connected with the horsey scene. Would you like me to ask around as well?

 

[Rambling Horse]

There are good and bad instructors and barns in every country, and from my experience moving from Canada to the UK, I've had no problems adjusting. That being said, there are at least two distinct "English" styles in use in the immediate vicinity of London, Ontario, and as a child who started in a German/Austrian tradition and then moved to a Hunter/Jumper stable, without knowing what the latter was, I also got terribly confused. Hunter/Jumper is technically a bit different.

I still have friends and relatives in London who are connected with the horsey scene. Would you like me to ask around as well?

I think my friend has attempted (with no success so far) to contact one of the yards listed in one of the previous responses, but yes, it would still be really, really helpful if you could ask round! The more info and options they have the better.

I'm assuming the German/Austrian style is closest to what we have in the UK? If so I think they'd prefer that. I'm curious, what are the differences between the two styles over there, and compared to riding here?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Spookypony is quite right, if he's at a barn that teaches the 'English pleasure' style for example, it will be completely different to what he learnt here.

 

[Rambling Horse]

Spookypony is quite right, if he's at a barn that teaches the 'English pleasure' style for example, it will be completely different to what he learnt here.

That looks like what he was describing, from what I could tell. It does look completely different. Are there any benefits to having a horse work on such a long rein and with such a low head carriage? :confused3:

 

[Lanky Loll]

That looks like what he was describing, from what I could tell. It does look completely different. Are there any benefits to having a horse work on such a long rein and with such a low head carriage? :confused3:

Looks to me like the rider is in prime position to be spun off too when the horse decides to bog off if it's had enough I did think it sounded like they were being taught in a more "hunterjumper" style which is quite different to our way of riding

 

[spookypony]

I called it German/Austrian, because in that area of Ontario, many of the stables that competed DR/SJ and/or some of the riding schools were run by people who were either ex-pat Germans or Austrians, or who were descended from Germans or Austrians! Technique-wise, it's the same as you'd expect when going to a good instructor here, with probably about the same range of variation you might get here. My instructor was from a background that would get called "classical" here, if that makes sense...For me, the biggest adjustments upon coming to the UK had nothing to do with riding style. It was about nomenclature ("headcollar" instead of "halter", "rug" instead of "blanket", that sort of thing!), details of management (tying up to a tie-ring with a bit of string, rather than cross-ties, the propensity for everything to have shoes on, especially behind), and hacking in what I perceived as insanely dangerous situations (OMG so many hazards everywhere!). And I was slightly surprised that the principle of "left hands meet" still applies in the school, even though you lot drive on the wrong side of the road!

I'll ask some friends over in Canada about the current barn situation!

 

[Rambling Horse]

Looks to me like the rider is in prime position to be spun off too when the horse decides to bog off if it's had enough I did think it sounded like they were being taught in a more "hunterjumper" style which is quite different to our way of riding

Haha, that's what I was thinking too!

I called it German/Austrian, because in that area of Ontario, many of the stables that competed DR/SJ and/or some of the riding schools were run by people who were either ex-pat Germans or Austrians, or who were descended from Germans or Austrians! Technique-wise, it's the same as you'd expect when going to a good instructor here, with probably about the same range of variation you might get here. My instructor was from a background that would get called "classical" here, if that makes sense...For me, the biggest adjustments upon coming to the UK had nothing to do with riding style. It was about nomenclature ("headcollar" instead of "halter", "rug" instead of "blanket", that sort of thing!), details of management (tying up to a tie-ring with a bit of string, rather than cross-ties, the propensity for everything to have shoes on, especially behind), and hacking in what I perceived as insanely dangerous situations (OMG so many hazards everywhere!). And I was slightly surprised that the principle of "left hands meet" still applies in the school, even though you lot drive on the wrong side of the road!

I'll ask some friends over in Canada about the current barn situation!

Oh I see; so the riding was similar. It's reassuring to hear (for my friend's current situation) that the biggest differences were the non-riding aspects of horse ownership!

What are you talking about, our hacking is character-building! You've not ridden until you've met a tractor on a one-lane road with only a narrow grass verge with a ditch as a means of spooking round it!

I'm a bit confused by the concept of cross-ties; if the horse panics it has nowhere to go?

Thank you again for offering to ask. My friend contacted one of the yards (barns ) posted earlier, and they sounded really good but they only offered lessons for those with their own horses to ride on, which unfortunately he's unable to do as he's in no position to buy or even loan his own. (Doesn't stop me looking for him though, keeps me from being tempted by horses closer to home...)

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Spookypony is quite right, if he's at a barn that teaches the 'English pleasure' style for example, it will be completely different to what he learnt here.

This is what I remember from when I lived in the US - to me it was Western pleasure with an English saddle. It was a culture shock for me, as was the riding an entire showjumping round in the 2 point seat. Aid were very similar to western, so lots of squeaks and kisses!

I remember all the horses were in either a D ring (or similar) or for 'strong' horses, a Kimblewick. Kids and teens would be in jod boots with a funny garter strap thing just under the knee.

I was so relieved when I found a share that was dressage based - normal riding!!

 

[Rambling Horse]

This is what I remember from when I lived in the US - to me it was Western pleasure with an English saddle. It was a culture shock for me, as was the riding an entire showjumping round in the 2 point seat. Aid were very similar to western, so lots of squeaks and kisses!

I remember all the horses were in either a D ring (or similar) or for 'strong' horses, a Kimblewick. Kids and teens would be in jod boots with a funny garter strap thing just under the knee.

I was so relieved when I found a share that was dressage based - normal riding!!

That sounds just like what my friend is being taught, Western with English tack! Complete with voice aids to the extent that the horse doesn't know when to stop with just physical aids...
I've noticed the 2 point seat thing too, when looking at horses being advertised and facebook pages for 'English' riding in Canada. They all seem to lean forward even when doing flatwork and come out of the saddle in canter? (Watching Charlotte last night was a nice refreshing reminder of the correct English style position after looking into the Canadian stuff for so long).

That does sound a relief. I know the US and Canada may be slightly different, but what was your general experience when finding somewhere normal to ride? Was it difficult?

 

[Turitea]

I do not understand the point of equitation: riders with bums out, hollow backs, heels so low it must hurt, stiff and horses always on their forelegs and shuffling through the sand. How on earth are you supposed to ride a horse if taught such stuff? I am genuinely confused.

 

[Rambling Horse]

I do not understand the point of equitation: riders with bums out, hollow backs, heels so low it must hurt, stiff and horses always on their forelegs and shuffling through the sand. How on earth are you supposed to ride a horse if taught such stuff? I am genuinely confused.

While after my first post I'm trying not to be overly critical, I completely agree with you

I am just as curious as to how anyone would find this better than 'proper' English. (But then I feel the same way about Western... bleh)

 

[Enfys]

I got to Canada, took one look at what was called English style and promptly gave up.

No way, after 40 years of BHS brain washing (and I say meaning no offense) could I adjust to letting a horse go around on a loose rein looking as if it was cooling down after work, and 'where the bloody hell is its' head?' agggggggggghhhhhhh. I couldn't do it!

I started all over again, back to square one, riding western.

I have since started all over again - with gaited horses, which is different again.

I can say that it is a huge learning curve changing continents, not just in riding styles, but in all things horse. My thinking is that it is different, but different is not wrong.